*Official* College Basketball Thread

[aboz56]

but they lost to all those teams..

 

doesnt make much good to beat all the easy teams you play and then lose to all the tough/solid teams and expect to slip in.. it COULD happen, but I doubt it will..

 

I mean of course if they do good in the tourny they could get in, but I dont think thats gonna happen..

 

beating Wisconsin when they come to your place is nothing special.. they suck on the road..

 

MSU was a solid win for them though

Thank you for your analysis, Andy Katz.

[T R U]

Yeah they lost to those teams, but you have to take that into account. Should IU have lightened up the schedule a bit? Probably. But they held up in some of those tough games, and you can't just look at it as "another loss" when you are playing teams of those caliber. Aboz is right, if they would have creampuffed their schedule and had 4-5 more wins instead of losses vs great teams, they'd probly be in for sure. The more i think about it, the more IU should be in

 

 

they dont deserve to be in... 14 - 11 and losses to almost all the good teams you played should not get you in cause you "hung in there"

Edited February 27, 2005 by T R U

[T R U]

Thank you for your analysis, Andy Katz.

 

my name isnt Andy..

[aboz56]

  my name isnt Andy..

Thanks for pointing that out, Einstein.

[T R U]

Thanks for pointing that out, Einstein.

 

uhhh... its not Einstein either... man, your wayyyy off

[Palehosefan]

I can't believe I'm gonna defend Duke at all but here it goes. Illinois wouldn't handle Duke rather easily at Cameron Indoor. It wouldn't be an easy game on a neutral floor either as Duke would slow the game down and they always play very solid man defense. Illinois would win by 12+ at home, 6+ on a neutral floor, and it would be a one possession game at Duke. Thats my opinion and can we please move on now. Illinois wouldn't want to see Duke in their bracket, and vice versa Illinois bracket would be the last one that Duke would want to enter.

 

Also I don't think you can argue that Indiana has a legitimate chance at the tourney this year, but they have alot of work to do. If they can win out at Wiscy and home to NW, then you guys will be sitting pretty well entering the Big 10 tourney. 2 wins and a loss in the tourney and it will be tough to turn down IU for the dance with 18 wins and 12 losses. After all, Georgia got in the tourney in 2001 at 16-14, and IU's SOS is in the top 30. RPI could end up keeping you guys out though.

[aboz56]

I can't believe I'm gonna defend Duke at all but here it goes. Illinois wouldn't handle Duke rather easily at Cameron Indoor. It wouldn't be an easy game on a neutral floor either as Duke would slow the game down and they always play very solid man defense. Illinois would win by 12+ at home, 6+ on a neutral floor, and it would be a one possession game at Duke. Thats my opinion and can we please move on now. Illinois wouldn't want to see Duke in their bracket, and vice versa Illinois bracket would be the last one that Duke would want to enter.

 

Also I don't think you can argue that Indiana has a legitimate chance at the tourney this year, but they have alot of work to do. If they can win out at Wiscy and home to NW, then you guys will be sitting pretty well entering the Big 10 tourney. 2 wins and a loss in the tourney and it will be tough to turn down IU for the dance with 18 wins and 12 losses. After all, Georgia got in the tourney in 2001 at 16-14, and IU's SOS is in the top 30. RPI could end up keeping you guys out though.

It was a one possession game with Maryland, too, right?

 

I believe Maryland owned them twice this year.

 

Everyone should just face that Duke isn't that good this year and move on.

 

The name "Duke" only carries so much weight. Teams aren't scared of them anymore, which was about 75% percent of the battle to begin with.

[IlliniKrush]

Palehose, you didn't exactly defend Duke there. BP has argued that Duke is better than Illinois the entire time, which is what we've been "arguing" even though it's no argument for anyone who knows anything about college basketball. You didn't just defend that statement.

[aboz56]

Palehose, you didn't exactly defend Duke there. BP has argued that Duke is better than Illinois the entire time, which is what we've been "arguing" even though it's no argument for anyone who knows anything about college basketball. You didn't just defend that statement.

Of course he didn't defend it, he had no point to begin with.

 

Illinois is the best team in the land until someone proves otherwise.

 

There's nothing else to discuss on that front.

[IlliniKrush]

Kansas and Okla St are tied at half, 39-39. Both teams are shooting lights out.

[Palehosefan]

you didn't exactly defend Duke there.

 

Well I tried my best not to anyways .

 

Of course he didn't defend it, he had no point to begin with.

 

Illinois is the best team in the land until someone proves otherwise.

 

There's nothing else to discuss on that front.

 

UNC fans were that confident going into Cameron also, and ended up having a terrible game. It happens. Great teams can lose to good teams at home, especially at the hellhole I mean Cameron. Not that any of it matters anyways, of course Illini is the best team in the nation and they will not have to worry about playing Duke at Cameron. Duke will have to worry about being in the same bracket as the Illini. I'm not even trying to be in this argument, as it was flawed to begin with, a premise not built on logic, but on blind loyalty.

[Rowand44]

I can't believe I'm gonna defend Duke at all but here it goes. Illinois wouldn't handle Duke rather easily at Cameron Indoor. It wouldn't be an easy game on a neutral floor either as Duke would slow the game down and they always play very solid man defense. Illinois would win by 12+ at home, 6+ on a neutral floor, and it would be a one possession game at Duke. Thats my opinion and can we please move on now. Illinois wouldn't want to see Duke in their bracket, and vice versa Illinois bracket would be the last one that Duke would want to enter.

 

Also I don't think you can argue that Indiana has a legitimate chance at the tourney this year, but they have alot of work to do. If they can win out at Wiscy and home to NW, then you guys will be sitting pretty well entering the Big 10 tourney. 2 wins and a loss in the tourney and it will be tough to turn down IU for the dance with 18 wins and 12 losses. After all, Georgia got in the tourney in 2001 at 16-14, and IU's SOS is in the top 30. RPI could end up keeping you guys out though.

I agree with you to fricken much for you being a unc fan. Anyways, like I've said there is no arguing that Illinois is a much better team then Duke and right now there is just no arguing that Illinois is the best team in the country. However if they're playing at Cameron it's going to be a good game, do I think Illinois would win--yes I do but I think it would come down to the end, now on a neutral court in the tourney, it's still a fairly close game but Illinois would probably have the game won with 2-3 mins left in the game. There are only a few teams I think have a legitimate shot at beating the Illini in the tournament and Duke isn't one of them, jmo.

[WHarris1]

COME ON OSU, PULL THIS ONE OUT!

[WHarris1]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God damn KU.

[He_Gawn]

OSU loses on terrible clock management.

[WHarris1]

Also, even if Wisky beats IU on Tuesday, IU still finishes 3rd in the Big 10 outright, which in itself should be enough to get in.

No.

If Wisky beats IU they are almost a lock to finish 3rd.

 

Wisky is 9-5, if they beat IU and Purdue they are 11-5.

IU is 9-5, if they lose to Wisky and beat NW they are 10-6

[greasywheels121]

Nice win today Greasy. I woke up to watch the game then went back to sleep after OT, lol.

 

Almost killed yourself at the free throw line late, but the guys kept their composure and played some good D down the stretch and in OT. If only Bracey could be consistent...and no i don't mean 40 pt games, but his bad shooting and poor decisions that have played a huge hand in games has got to piss IU fans off.

 

Selection Sunday will be interesting for you. I don't think anyone can say whether IU is in or out for sure right now.  Here's hoping we get another Big Ten team in there.

 

True. This is why I think we'll probably get another year of Bracey; he's not all there yet. However, I've kind of turned my opinion on him. He's become a lot better player in the 2005 calendar year. I wouldn't be mad to see him back with the roster we already have going into next year.

 

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I'm glad that Mike Davis is basically a guarantee to come back now. At the very least, he deserves to coach the '05-06 team.

[Butter Parque]

This discussion would be moot if they packed their schedule full of early season creampuffs, much like Duke

 

So your saying that Duke creampuffs their non-conference schedule. You're right. Very Good.

 

Now put some logic into it; if Duke was in the Big Ten, do you think they would be creampuffing their schedule? I don't think so.

 

If you think about it, Duke would wear themselves out before conference play if they put together a hard non-conference schedule, then they would have to go through the rigors of the ACC. Is that fair?

 

Why should a team in the best conference in the country, also have to play top ten teams outside of the conference. It's obvious that no one hear will ever give Duke a pass on anything because they're hated so much. people just look for things to get on them about. if Indiana was in the ACC, do you actually think they would have packed their schedule? I don't think so.

 

I want to set the record straight on something else, I never said Duke was better then Illinois. I do think Duke has a shot at beating them though. I give all the credit in the world to an undefeated team. They had a tough non-conference schedule and got through it well. To me though, they look like a slightly better 03-04 Stanford team. They did well in non-conference and won in an easy conference schedule, then when the tournament began, they were out before you knew it. I think Illinois is better then them, but I don't see them winning the National Championship. I think they'll get to the Elite Eight or the Final Four. Think about how hard it will be for them to keep this streak alive and get into the final four. How many teams do that? I don't think, from watching numerous games of their's this year, that they are the best team I've seen in years or decades.

[SnB]

I want to set the record straight on something else, I never said Duke was better then Illinois. I do think Duke has a shot at beating them though. I give all the credit in the world to an undefeated team. They had a tough non-conference schedule and got through it well. To me though, they look like a slightly better 03-04 Stanford team. They did well in non-conference and won in an easy conference schedule, then when the tournament began, they were out before you knew it. I think Illinois is better then them, but I don't see them winning the National Championship. I think they'll get to the Elite Eight or the Final Four. Think about how hard it will be for them to keep this streak alive and get into the final four. How many teams do that? I don't think, from watching numerous games of their's this year, that they are the best team I've seen in years or decades.

 

most illini fans will tell you that we don't "expect" to win it all. The tourney is too much of a crapshoot to expect something like that.

The problem we all had w/ your posts is you coming off as saying the illini don't deserve the credit they get.

[ZoomSlowik]

If you think about it, Duke would wear themselves out before conference play if they put together a hard non-conference schedule, then they would have to go through the rigors of the ACC. Is that fair?

 

Why should a team in the best conference in the country, also have to play top ten teams outside of the conference. It's obvious that no one hear will ever give Duke a pass on anything because they're hated so much. people just look for things to get on them about. if Indiana was in the ACC, do you actually think they would have packed their schedule? I don't think so.

 

 

Conference has no bearing on a team's out of conference schedule and should not be a concern. That's an asanine statement to claim that they shouldn't have to. UNC still went out and played Kentucky and UConn, and played in a tournament with Louisville, Texas, and Iowa. GT played Gonzaga and Kansas. Wake played Arizona and Texas. Maryland played Memphis early in the year when everyone thought they'd be good. If you take out the Big Ten/ACC Challenge where Duke doesn't control the matchups, they didn't play a single team that was ranked in the preseason polls. That's a major reason that Duke and BC aren't being talked up that much despite impressive records, and a major reason that Duke is currently projected as a #3 seed on ESPN despite having the #5 RPI. This isn't exactly an anomale either, I can only think of one season in recent history when Duke had more than two out of conference games that look strong before the season started. I'm not saying you have to go play a schedule like Indiana, but a team of Duke's caliber should really play some teams of their own stature.

 

Sorry, had to vent concerning that.

Edited February 28, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[greasywheels121]

Good write up here by Bob Kravitz. Of course it's a pro-IU piece, but it really gives the whole Big Ten some deserved dap...

 

Hoosiers belong in tourney

Bob Kravitz

 

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- Don't bother me with the RPI. Or the Dewey Decimal System. Or whatever wacky formula NCAA Tournament selectors will be using this year to separate the wheat from the chaff for the 65-team tournament.

 

Barring a final-week Chernobyl -- that means losing at Wisconsin and then losing at home to Northwestern -- the Indiana University basketball team should hear its name mentioned when the NCAA brackets are announced two Sundays from now.

 

After watching IU pull off its most important victory of the season Sunday, 78-74 in overtime over 10th-ranked Michigan State, do I really have to spell it out?

 

• The Hoosiers should finish the season with 10 Big Ten victories, which, in the past, has been a virtual VIP pass to the NCAAs. Since the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985, 28 Big Ten teams have had 10 or more conference victories, and 27 made the NCAA Tournament. The one that didn't was Michigan, and that was only because the Wolverines ruled themselves ineligible.

 

• The Hoosiers are finishing strong, winning four of their past five and going 12-5 since the loss (or, as Mike Davis calls it, the win) against Charlotte.

 

• Strength of schedule. The truth is, computer ratings experts Jeff Sagarin and Jerry Palm are the only two who understand how this whole thing works -- they've also got the quarterback rating covered, if you're interested -- but I've got to think there should be more merit in losing to a great team on the road than there is in beating a cupcake on the road.

 

And yet, 10 victories is no longer a sure thing, apparently. As this is being written, the guys on CBS are talking about how the Big Ten may send a mere three teams to the NCAA Tournament. Three. And that's from a conference that has led the nation with an average of 5.6 teams in the tournament since 1985.

 

Which begs the question, "When did the Big Ten turn into the Big Sky?"

 

According to the most recent Ratings Percentage Index rankings, the Big Ten is the sixth-best conference in the nation. Which is fine. But you wonder about the RPI's credibility when the Pac-10, the abysmal Pac-10, is ranked second.

 

According to the Sagarin ratings, the Big Ten is fifth. In that one, the Pac-10 is sixth. So somebody's nuts.

 

"To talk about having just three teams go from this league is disrespectful," Davis said.

 

Yeah, and crazy, too. At least four deserve a shot. With strong consideration for a fifth.

 

Nobody is going to argue this is the greatest year in Big Ten history. But it's not the worst. Not when the league went 97-41 in nonconference play, and had a .500 or better record against every conference except the ACC.

Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, who has been on a soapbox recently on this subject, hopes coaches will use the upcoming conference tournament to pump up the Big Ten.

 

"I'm so tired of hearing about all the other leagues, how good they are," Izzo said. "Mike Davis played a (difficult nonconference) schedule . . . it wasn't quite as good as ours last year, but it was close, and he got waxed. He could have played one of those cupcake schedules and he'd have a bona fide NCAA team. What people don't understand is, that schedule didn't just hurt him early, but he did it with freshmen and sophomores, and that's damaging to those kids. To get them to bounce back like this, he deserves and his kids deserve a lot of credit.

 

"This league's a damned good league. . . . You do the math. You figure it out. You quote yourself. But do the homework. Indiana is good enough to be there."

 

This much, we know. Or we think we know. Illinois will be there. Michigan State will be there. Wisconsin, which has a huge game Tuesday against IU, probably will be there. That leaves IU and Minnesota. Which brings us to the wonderful world of tiebreakers.

 

However it ultimately works out, this day will be remembered as the first time since Davis' first year that the fans rushed the court.

 

It will be remembered as the day when this fan base, which is quick to grumble when IU's offense goes stagnant, developed a real feeling for this hustling young group.

 

And it will be remembered as one of the most important victories in Davis' career. All along, my sense has been that Davis' job wasn't in any trouble with the people who make the decisions, but this should quiet some of the chat-room conversation about his imminent ouster, at least for a couple of days.

 

What did we write back in December? Patience, people. Patience.

 

"We're playing our best basketball right now," Davis said. "Everybody who's watched us the whole year, they can see there's a big difference between this team and the team in December."

 

One more, and the Hoosiers should be in.

 

At the very least, they're now sitting on the bubble, very much a part of the NCAA conversation.

 

Back in December, who could have imagined?

[Rex Hudler]

True.  This is why I think we'll probably get another year of Bracey; he's not all there yet.  However, I've kind of turned my opinion on him.  He's become a lot better player in the 2005 calendar year.  I wouldn't be mad to see him back with the roster we already have going into next year. 

 

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I'm glad that Mike Davis is basically a guarantee to come back now.  At the very least, he deserves to coach the '05-06 team.

 

 

I agree greasy, Bracey has changed his game since January rolled around. He deserves credit for being more team oriented. If he could only just shoot on the road........ ha ha

 

Also, I agree that barring a total meltdown from here on out, Davis will likely be back. There is still no guarantee how the new AD will see things when he sits down and reflects on the program as a whole.

 

I do disagree with you that Davis "at least deserves one more year." If we are back in this situation next year, the "one more chance" line of thinking will cost IU an additional $300k. If he is retained as the Head Coach, it has to be because the AD believes he is the long term answer. Of course, anything can change, but I really beliefve a decision needs to be made in the long term best interest of the program, not just giving him one more shot to see if it can be turned around.

[greasywheels121]

I agree greasy, Bracey has changed his game since January rolled around.  He deserves credit for being more team oriented.  If he could only just shoot on the road........ ha ha

 

Also, I agree that barring a total meltdown from here on out, Davis will likely be back.  There is still no guarantee how the new AD will see things when he sits down and reflects on the program as a whole. 

 

I do disagree with you that Davis "at least deserves one more year."  If we are back in this situation next year, the "one more chance" line of thinking will cost IU an additional $300k.  If he is retained as the Head Coach, it has to be because the AD believes he is the long term answer.  Of course, anything can change, but I really beliefve a decision needs to be made in the long term best interest of the program, not just giving him one more shot to see if it can be turned around.

 

I just feel we're seeing what a Davis team can do now. This is finally all his, and things are really looking up. I just see us doing bigger things next year. Our schedule won't be as disgusting as it was this year, and DJ having another guy to work with down low is going to be huge.

 

Whether or not Bracey come back, 2005-2006 is going to be the year IU really gets put back on the map.

[Rex Hudler]

Now put some logic into it; if Duke was in the Big Ten, do you think they would be creampuffing their schedule? I don't think so.

 

If you think about it, Duke would wear themselves out before conference play if they put together a hard non-conference schedule, then they would have to go through the rigors of the ACC. Is that fair?

 

Why should a team in the best conference in the country, also have to play top ten teams outside of the conference. It's obvious that no one hear will ever give Duke a pass on anything because they're hated so much. people just look for things to get on them about. if Indiana was in the ACC, do you actually think they would have packed their schedule? I don't think so.

 

Butter, your argument here is flawed for many reasons. First of all, no one (aside from maybe Syracuse and Georgetown) plans to load up on creampuffs, regardless of how tough their conference is. It is also not advisable in most situations to load up on every team in the top 10 either. A balance of winnable games (creampuffs or locals), mid-level teams and a handful of tough non-conference opponents is optimal.

 

Teams also schedule sometimes many years in advance, so the strenth of the conference cannot be accurately predicted. Granted year in and year out the ACC is one of the better conferences, but it was just a few years ago they only got three teams in the tourney. On the flip side, it is impossible when a single school is doing their schedule, to know or predict how good the rest of their league will be.

 

In principle no, Duke doesn't want to "load up" like Michigan St. did last year and IU this year, but neither do other teams. Illinois wasn't making their schedule harder this year because they thought the Big Ten would be down.

 

The goals for scheduling are pretty similar for teams in all the major conferences. Yes, each may have their own philosophy to tweak things a certain way, but for the most part, there aren't a lot differences. If you want to point out the strength of the ACC vs. the Big Ten, go right ahead, but don't act like that is the reason the schedules are the way they are.

[Rex Hudler]

I just feel we're seeing what a Davis team can do now.  This is finally all his, and things are really looking up.  I just see us doing bigger things next year.  Our schedule won't be as disgusting as it was this year, and DJ having another guy to work with down low is going to be huge. 

 

Whether or not Bracey come back, 2005-2006 is going to be the year IU really gets put back on the map.

 

Can't argue with you there. I am looking forward to seeing Killingsworth play and also to see if Monroe can really help. I'm not sold that he will be any better than Strickland as a senior (he has gotten better too as of late) or Ratliff. Killingsworth WILL make an impact, however.