A "Beltran" like CFer for Garland?

[beck72]

Beck, Bradley HAS had problems with his efforts on the field.  That is the very reason he was run out of Cleveland.  He has had problems from day one, gaining several suspensions while in the minors as well. 

 

He has anger management issues, obviously.  But those problems spill over and affect others.  An Indians player said that he liked Bradley, but his "problems" wear a team down.  Constantly butting heads with the manager, never knowing when he was going to explode seemed to drain the team.  A former teammate of his in the minors told me basically the same thing.

 

He has talent for sure, but its a risk I personally would not take.  He is the kind of guy that can bring down a team's morale singlehandedly.  Some teams will look at talent first, and ignore the character issues.  I think you have to consider both.

I think each situation is different. Clev had all young guys, many younger than Bradley. Most players will steer clear of a guy with an "explosive" personality, who could "go off" at any minute. No one will challenge him.

 

In LA, they have older guys. No problems there. Maybe no one will challenge him. But if they sense Bradley has his heart in the right place, isn't a freak, just has some things to work out, they'll cut him some slack.

 

What I'm saying is the Sox seem like they'd be a good fit. Would Everett, KW, and Frank [who should retire with the sox, play another 3, 4 yrs] challenge a young, explosive African american male and help him work through his problems? As long as Bradley isn't a thug, but just a guy who has some issues and is willing to work on them, then these veterans would take care of him. I know enough about Frank and Carl and not only would they challenge Bradley, but would protect him and help him grow into the player and the man he could be. Carl has been in the same position as Milton, and Frank has taken enough shots. They won't tolerate other people bashing him unfairly, or Bradley "going off" and doing something stupid.

 

I've worked with enough "castoffs" and "misfits" to know that not every person is crazy and should be discarded just because they got into trouble. It's the people who are willing to change, willing to work, and put in situations where they can succeed that ultimately can turn things around. And a person who comes through struggles and finds success, is stronger for it. In this case, not only Bradley would be stronger, but the Sox would be as well. Give me an all out effort type of guy over a player who mocks fans, blames teammates for failures, doesn't think he needs to change a thing about his game and could care less about winning. [Many people seem to forget Garland's troubles last year. IMO, his are worse, and will take far more time than Bradleys, and bring down a team even more]

 

My point is the Sox could be a good situation for Bradley [with the right people on the sox] if Bradley is the type who's willing to work. Whether Bradley is or not, that's the key.

[beck72]

Thats a bizarre idea beck, now lets put Saddam in the same jail as Noriega and Milosevic so he can benefit from their leadership!

Kidding or not, you're feeding into perceptions that Frank and Carl are bad teammates, which they're not. Everyone can use some guidance, esp. someone working through issues. To say a 26 yr old black man can't learn and grow from two older, experienced and successful black men who have had problems and worked through them is the more bizarre idea, IMO

[Guest JimH]

I don't see them taking the risk with Bradley. Several of the clueless Chicago media would jump all over Bradley's past and blow it out of proportion. Sox don't need that type of PR, especially now.

[beck72]

I don't see them taking the risk with Bradley.  Several of the clueless Chicago media would jump all over Bradley's past and blow it out of proportion.  Sox don't need that type of PR, especially now.

Is he the "biggest" move the sox should make this offseason? No. The sox sign a SP or another higher paid player and the story gets downplayed.

 

I'm sure the media will hound him where ever he goes, if indeed LA forces him out. That's why having Carl and Frank around would take the media focus off him. Both hate the media anyway. I could see both speaking to the media "Let it Be", as long as it's about the past and not recent events. Also, a strong GM like KW immediately takes the pressure off any player the way he speaks openly and honestly to the media.

 

What is interesting is how LA did after they traded their "heart and soul" LoDuca, and how poorly FLA did. He was one of the dodgers who stepped up and was a key player off a division winning team. [For you lurkers out there, I've talked about Jose Guillen so don't need to bring him up here]

[Rex Hudler]

Kidding or not, you're feeding into perceptions that Frank and Carl are bad teammates, which they're not. Everyone can use some guidance, esp. someone working through issues. To say a 26 yr old black man can't learn and grow from two older, experienced and successful black men who have had problems and worked through them is the more bizarre idea, IMO

I know we won't agree on Bradley and that is fine. But there are many that would argue that Frank is or would be a good influence on any player. I don't want to get into that whole argument again, because it has been had before, but assuming Frank would be a father figure is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

I'm not against bringing Bradley here. However I think that Garland is worth more then just Bradley straight up. Honestly we're talking about a guy who was given away by the Indians to the first team that knocked on the door. Plus he has a reputation as a club house cancer.

Now compare that to a guy like Garland, who aside from one overblown incident has been a solid team player, who is 24 and pitched close to 200 IP in the last three years while reaching double digits in wins and an ERA under 5 while pitching in one of the most nortorous hitters parks in the AL. In a pitchers park like LA it's not such a stretch to see him become an 18-20 game winner. Plus the guy is still improving.

If we are going to trade Garland it better be for more then just Bradley and we better be damn sure ready to replace him.

[Rex Hudler]

I'm not against bringing Bradley here. However I think that Garland is worth more then just Bradley straight up. Honestly we're talking about a guy who was given away by the Indians to the first team that knocked on the door. Plus he has a reputation as a club house cancer.

Now compare that to a guy like Garland, who aside from one overblown incident has been a solid team player, who is 24 and pitched close to 200 IP in the last three years while reaching double digits in wins and an ERA under 5 while pitching in one of the most nortorous hitters parks in the AL. In a pitchers park like LA it's not such a stretch to see him become an 18-20 game winner. Plus the guy is still improving.

If we are going to trade Garland it better be for more then just Bradley and we better be damn sure ready to replace him.

So clubhouse cancers are okay as long as they are cheap?????

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Look all i'm saying is that Bradley wouldn't be just a bad guy to have if we were able to get a bullpen guy thrown in for him. I'd rather have Bradley then Everett out there.

That being said I don't really want Bradley here at all if we could help it, or Everett either for that matter. I just posted that in response to all of the people undervaluing Garland.

I mean Garland is better then Benson was for sure. The only difference is the lack of support from ESPN. Thats bulls*** to me.

[WSFAN35]

I don't see Bradley as a clubhouse cancer. He seems more like one of those guys who opponents hate, and teammates rally around. I'm all for bringing Bradley to the south side, especially with strong black leadership, Thomas, Everett, Baines. However, you can't fill one hole by creating another.

[AddisonStSox]

However, you can't fill one hole by creating another.

That is my stance on the issue. I would like to have Bradley on the Souhside, but not at the expense of our starting rotation. Bradley would improve us offensively, that's for sure, but I think the hurt we would feel in the rotation would trump his offensive improvement.

[chisox2334]

Just sing the song by barenaked ladies " If I had millon dollars" Kenny is getting more and more fustrated every offseason because of how much they can even spend. Which is not much at all. Poor kenny

[AngelasDaddy0427]

It could be worse. We could be stranded like the Orioles forever behind the Yankees and Red Sox with no hope of crawling out. At least we go into the season knowing we have a shot at something.

[Rex Hudler]

I don't see Bradley as a clubhouse cancer.  He seems more like one of those guys who opponents hate, and teammates rally around.  I'm all for bringing Bradley to the south side, especially with strong black leadership, Thomas, Everett, Baines.  However, you can't fill one hole by creating another.

His teammates in Cleveland didn't "rally around him". And since when is Frank considered a "strong black leader?" Is Carl, the guy that was considered fat, out of shape and lazy last year a leader by example?

 

I know Bradley has talent. I am just sticking to my guns that he is a risky proposition. Lots of players are good when a team is playing well or in playoff contention. Orlando Cabrera was great for Boston. But he wasn't thought of as a player who "goes all out" in Montreal.

[beck72]

I know we won't agree on Bradley and that is fine.  But there are many that would argue that Frank is or would be a good influence on any player.  I don't want to get into that whole argument again, because it has been had before, but assuming Frank would be a father figure is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

I'm not saying Frank would be a "father figure". But I bet he'd garner a hell of a lot of respect from any young black ball players. Frank can say things to a young guy like Bradley that a manager, coach, or a peer of Bradleys could and would never say.

 

Much has been made of the influence Ozzie may have on latino ballplayers playing for the sox. Yet couldn't Frank have a good influence on a young black player like Bradley? I think so. I'm not saying every young black player could use Frank's advice. Not by any means. But a guy like Bradley might

[beck72]

His teammates in Cleveland didn't "rally around him".  And since when is Frank considered a "strong black leader?"  Is Carl, the guy that was considered fat, out of shape and lazy last year a leader by example? 

 

I know Bradley has talent.  I am just sticking to my guns that he is a risky proposition.  Lots of players are good when a team is playing well or in playoff contention.  Orlando Cabrera was great for Boston.  But he wasn't thought of as a player who "goes all out" in Montreal.

Frank is a very strong personality. Strong leader? Maybe not. But he has leadership skills. Carl was hurt last year and that more than anything contributed to him being out of shape. Lazy hasn't been a word to describe him

 

I agree Bradley would be a risk. I never said the sox season should depend on just trading for him. IMO, though, he has more upside than Garland [along with a bullpen arm or prospect that would come to the sox if they were traded for each other] Yet it's a short term risk with potentially great long term benefits. The Sox need to win in the short term, with big moeny to the SP's, and Frank and Lee around for two yrs.

 

The Sox season does rest of getting young guys to perform far better than their numbers of 2004--Crede, Harris, C, RF, consistent SP, a stronger bullpen. The sox could use another young talent capable of hitting near the top of the order batting .300 with an OBP of .360 with strong defense for less than $3 mill. Few players out there fit that description

[MurcieOne]

I think whenever you have a team that is strapped payroll wise, I would have to say you take chances on a guy like Bradley with a s***load of talent. I think we have enough personality on this team with Ozzie being a complete crackpot that maybe a guy like bradley can fit in a little bit better....

 

BUT.... the ultimate equalizer... but

 

we cant trade any SP for a OF.... it would be dumb. starting pitching is what wins you ball games, and as inconsistent as Jon is... he is going to win you 10-12 ballgames a year because he is a talented guy.

 

go for him... but not at the cost of a starting pitcher.

[Old Socks]

It sounds like a lot of you guys are dancing around a race card issue. I see whites and blacks jacking around together all the time. I don't spend a lot of time in clubhouses, but I doubt if they are segregated. And if Bradley or any other player, white or black, becomes a devisive force in the clubhouse, are you telling me that only a player of the same race can straighten him out? Frank Thomas being a father figure but only to young blacks? Maybe I became an idealist in my old age, but, for example, Thomas and Rowand have been tammates for what. 3-4 years, and I would think that they must have had just a few conversations about hitting, with Frank doing most of the talking and Aaron doing most of the listening. All of which really doesn't have a whole lot about to say about whether Bradley should be on the Sox. If he is a devisive force, then you simply stay away.

[beck72]

It sounds like a lot of you guys are dancing around a race card issue.  I see whites and blacks jacking around together all the time.  I don't spend a lot of time in clubhouses, but I doubt if they are segregated.  And if Bradley or any other player, white or black, becomes a devisive force in the clubhouse, are you telling me that only a player of the same race can straighten him out?  Frank Thomas being a father figure but only to young blacks?  Maybe I became an idealist in my old age, but, for example, Thomas and Rowand have been tammates for what. 3-4 years, and I would think that they must have had just a few conversations about hitting, with Frank doing most of the talking and Aaron doing most of the listening.  All of which really doesn't have a whole lot about to say about whether Bradley should be on the Sox.  If he is a devisive force, then you simply stay away.

I've said Frank and Carl could probably speak to a young African american ballplayer having problems better [due to various factors, but race chief among them; also experience, success, earned respect, both had to deal with problems/ perceptions in the media spotlight] in a way different than say Greg Walker, Sandy Alomar, Ozzie Guillen or Jamie Burke could.

 

If a guy is having problems [all things being equal] having someone of the same ethnic and racial background saying the same thing as someone of a different racial/ ethnic background, is more powerful and persuasive, IMO and experience.

[beck72]

I think whenever you have a team that is strapped payroll wise, I would have to say you take chances on a guy like Bradley with a s***load of talent. I think we have enough personality on this team with Ozzie being a complete crackpot that maybe a guy like bradley can fit in a little bit better....

 

BUT.... the ultimate equalizer... but

 

we cant trade any SP for a OF.... it would be dumb. starting pitching is what wins you ball games, and as inconsistent as Jon is... he is going to win you 10-12 ballgames a year because he is a talented guy.

 

go for him... but not at the cost of a starting pitcher.

I've said all along that Garland is worth more than Bradley. I bet all the GM's around the league would agree. But I just used the two as a starting point for a trade. I wouldn't be surprised if the sox could get a bullpen arm who'd start on the 25 man roster in a deal as well.

[Rex Hudler]

Beck, I think the bottom line is that you and I have differences of opinion on the amount of risk a team should take on a player of marginal character, which is okay. I tend to fall on the more conservative side.

 

In no way am I intimating that you are in favor of taking on anyone if the talent is there, regardless of the sitation. My guess is that we are both probably pretty close to the line that divides our opinions, just on opposite sides.

[beck72]

I don't see them taking the risk with Bradley.  Several of the clueless Chicago media would jump all over Bradley's past and blow it out of proportion.  Sox don't need that type of PR, especially now.

With "good" PR signings of say, Nomar and Clement, a move like Bradley could fly under the radar.

[beck72]

Beck, I think the bottom line is that you and I have differences of opinion on the amount of risk a team should take on a player of marginal character, which is okay.  I tend to fall on the more conservative side.

 

In no way am I intimating that you are in favor of taking on anyone if the talent is there, regardless of the sitation.  My guess is that we are both probably pretty close to the line that divides our opinions, just on opposite sides.

I think Murcie stated what I've been thinking very well. The Sox with the payroll where it is, need to take some risks in talented players who could "breakout". I think Bradley would be a smaller risk than some people think, with the personnel the Sox have. The sox are older, less impressionable guys who can handle a guy like Bradley.

 

I'm probably more aggressive after the sox have lost for four yrs in a row. Sticking with the same old, same old just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

[beck72]

Well, it looks like Bradley could be very available. And for less than Garland. Seems he's gotten into a bit more trouble.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...1833EST0378.DTL

 

I'd still deal for him. With his talent, hothead or not, the sox would be helped more than hurt. The sox clubhouse isn't filled with a bunch of impressionable rookies. They could handle and help Bradley.

[qwerty]

Well, it looks like Bradley could be very available. And for less than Garland. Seems he's gotten into a bit more trouble.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...1833EST0378.DTL

 

I'd still deal for him. With his talent, hothead or not, the sox would be helped more than hurt. The sox clubhouse isn't filled with a bunch of impressionable rookies. They could handle and help Bradley.

I am with you 100% i do not mind taking risks like these players when the payoff is can possibly be so big. I was a backer of jose guillen when he was on the trading block also for the same reason, the big payoff.

[beck72]

I am with you 100% i do not mind taking risks like these players when the payoff is can possibly be so big. I was a backer of jose guillen when he was on the trading block also for the same reason, the big payoff.

Except Guillen came w/ far more baggage and question marks