Torture by proxy

[Texsox]

The Times of London has obtained confidential CIA and Defense Department logs that show that the agencies are using an executive jet to fly terrorist suspects to countries where they are certain to be tortured.

 

The movements of the Gulfstream 5 include over 300 flights to deliver prisoners to countries with poor human rights records including Egypt, Syria and Uzbekistan, according to the files. The logs have prompted allegations from critics that the agency is using such regimes to carry out torture by proxy.

 

Witnesses have claimed that the suspects are frequently bound, gagged and sedated before being put on board the planes. Witnesses described seeing the prisoners handed to US agents whose faces were masked by hoods. The clothes of the handcuffed prisoners were cut off and they were dressed in nappies covered by orange overalls before being forcibly given sedatives by suppository.

 

http://www.alternet.org/rights/log/

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Could you have possibly found a more looney leftist site than this? I really wonder...

 

 

This is a site that celebrates Thanksgiving by saying that the traditional Turkey day feast is destroying the planet, oppressing people in the 3rd world and ruining our health.

 

This BTW is under the banner "Best of the week" They're not talking about jokes either.

 

Is this where you and APU usually get your information?

 

 

Posters.......when you see someone put up a link like that which is not well known to you ( CNN, Fox, Yahoo, Suntimes, etc....) you might want to read a little deeper.....You might be amused by what you see.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Could you have possibly found a more looney leftist site than this?  I really wonder...

You might actually focus on the substance of the story if the link is to the source, and not one focused on something so quaint as the nition of rights and liberties? Fair enough. Despite current ownership by the Murdoch empire, the Times has a 200+ year run under it's belt.

 

So how about commenting on the story? Oh, yeah - it also centers around rights and liberties, so it is of little consequence to you.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

You might actually focus on the substance of the story if the link is to the source, and not one focused on something so quaint as the nition of rights and liberties?  Fair enough.  Despite current ownership by the Murdoch empire, the Times has a 200+ year run under it's belt.

 

So how about commenting on the story?  Oh, yeah - it also centers around rights and liberties, so it is of little consequence to you.

Looks like it centers around the "rights and liberties" of terrorists and you are absolutely right that is of no interest to me. If what they allege is in fact going on then its of no consequense to me. If the information garnered from these people saves one innocent life, prevents one attack or takes one more terrorist out of circulation then its all worth it.

 

I had a good laugh reading the article though. I didnt know that boiling people was a favored method of interrogation in Uzbekistan. LOL! I guess that redefines..........putting the heat on the suspects.

[CubKilla]

So how about commenting on the story?  Oh, yeah - it also centers around rights and liberties, so it is of little consequence to you.

I'm crying a river over the right of terrorists over here.

 

Flying terrorists to foreign lands on a G5 where looney lefties aren't able to question your every move just because GW Bush is president? I'll to that!

[Rex Kickass]

There's a disconnect I don't follow here.

 

Aren't we fighting to protect freedom, to protect our way of life and morals?

 

If we sink to their level to fight the terrorists, don't they win right there?

 

Just askin.

[EvilMonkey]

OK, you have the Times of London, supposedly getting confidential CIA logs? And 'witnesses'? Who? If there are witnesses, why aren't they hauled before the World Court, or the widely respected UN, to try and put pressure on the US to stop this? You just know that all the anit-US people would love to be able to do that. However, they would need actual real witnesses, not just ones a reporter claims have talked to him. In the story I found 'An Indonesian official ', a source at the airport ', Masood Anwar, a Pakistani newspaper reporter in Karachi who claims to have SEEN THE PLANE, and 'airport staff' who told him of certain people being led on the plane, you have 'Witnesses described seeing the prisoners handed to US agents whose faces were masked by hoods', and 'Witnesses have claimed that the suspects are frequently bound, gagged and sedated before being put on board the planes'. The reporter also makes careful note of the planes ID numbers to make it sound all official. The opening statement is also an accusation. "AN executive jet is being used by the American intelligence agencies to fly terrorist suspects to countries that routinely use torture in their prisons" Note the word IS. No agenda here.

[Rex Kickass]

Actually the degree of confidentiality seems odd to me. This jet has an identifiable number and is required to file flight plans with the FAA. Like all planes.

 

The London Times is owned by the same company that owns Fox News. So if this newspaper as your source is giving you the grain of salt, it oughta be the same grain of salt that you use when you watch Shep or Brit or Hannity.

[Texsox]

Looks like it centers around the "rights and liberties" of terrorists and you are absolutely right that is of no interest to me.  If what they allege is in fact going on then its of no consequense to me.  If the information garnered from these people saves one innocent life, prevents one attack or takes one more terrorist out of circulation then its all worth it.     

 

I had a good laugh reading the article though.  I didnt know that boiling people was a favored method of interrogation in Uzbekistan.  LOL!  I guess that redefines..........putting the heat on the suspects.

And when they torture Americans we have no reason to complain. Reap what you sow. I want protection for American soldiers who are captured. It seems rather hypocritical to demand proper treatment for our soldiers and then turn around and use torture.

[zach61]

I have to agree with Nuke and Cubkilla here. I don't care what we do to people that don't agree with our way of life and I'm willing to sacrafice Nuke times 10,000 to keep my way of life. Nuke, I'd hate to see you get beheaded on some video, but that's the type of war we're fighting now. Just make sure you get them before they get you or don't let them take you alive. They'll probably torture the American soldiers the worst.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

In 2003, the memo came out from the Pentagon endorsing torture to be used by the US government.

 

The Wall Street Journal online has made public portions of the Pentagon's March 2003 memo on interrogation methods for enemy detainees. Although Attorney General John Ashcroft has refused to release the memo, it was leaked to news sources and the story was widely reported. The memo, which contains advice from Justice Department lawyers to the CIA, asserts that using torture against suspected terrorists may be justified. Wall Strett Journal mainstream enough for you there, Nuke?

 

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/doc...litary_0604.pdf has the memo copied.

 

More information about the US sending people to be tortured in Arab states can be found at http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0726/p01s03-usju.html

 

I have a problem with the people that swallow what a government, let alone our government says. Unlimited detentions without having charges filed, sending them off to "friendly" countries like Pakistan and Syria to be tortured all on the word that the people are "terrorists". Perhaps we forgot that Ashcroft was ZERO FOR 5,000 in getting terrorism convictions -- not a damn person he accused of being a terrorist was found guilty when brought to trial. And let's not forget the history of our government labeling people as evil when they really weren't (take COINTELPRO for example and the outrageousness of that) Also, the General Accounting Office found out that for convictions of "terrorism" acts, over 78% (it's around that -- don't have the book in front of me right now) had nothing to do with terrorism at all, but were just cases to inflate the government's appearance of getting stuff done.

 

If we are fighting a war for liberty, democracy and freedom -- then it is antithetical and hypocritical to be using torture as a means of getting information. It is entirely hypocritical for a nation to be upset that our people are being tortured, beheaded and kidnapped etc. while the US government does the exact same thing.

[CubKilla]

And when they torture Americans we have no reason to complain.

No one in the US is complaining and I can guarantee to you that any US, Brit, Aussy, or coalition soldier taken prisoner by terrorist regimes is being treated 10,000X worse than any prisoner in the custody of the US.

[Texsox]

No one in the US is complaining and I can guarantee to you that any US, Brit, Aussy, or coalition soldier taken prisoner by terrorist regimes is being treated 10,000X worse than any prisoner in the custody of the US.

When we sink to their level, we become them and they us. Soon there is no difference. So what are we trying to accomplish? And we wonder why the world hates us :headshake

 

Campaign to get our laws changed then. If you think torture is a great way to get information, then write your congressman and ask him to introduce a ban that allows the US to torture instead of hiding behind other countries. Certainly we can torture even better than the Syrians. Write to your newspaper and tell the world you support torture. And let's not stop overseas, let's see how effective it is at home. Then we can make a dent in the crime rate. Electroshock everyone who is in for questioning until they confess.

[CubKilla]

Campaign to get our laws changed then. If you think torture is a great way to get information, then write your congressman and ask him to introduce a ban that allows the US to torture instead of hiding behind other countries. Certainly we can torture even better than the Syrians. Write to your newspaper and tell the world you support torture. And let's not stop overseas, let's see how effective it is at home. Then we can make a dent in the crime rate. Electroshock everyone who is in for questioning until they confess.

I never said that. I said I don't feel sorry for any terrorist REPORTEDLY flown to Islamic nations by coalition forces where the laws against torture are less restrictive.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And when they torture Americans we have no reason to complain. Reap what you sow. I want protection for American soldiers who are captured. It seems rather hypocritical to demand proper treatment for our soldiers and then turn around and use torture.

It doesn't matter how we treat captives in this war they are still going to use every opportunity to saw off the head of any U.S. soldier they can get their mitts on so the hell with them.

 

 

Like I said before if torturing these people saves one innocent life, prevents one attack or helps nail one terrorist then its all worth it.

[Rex Kickass]

I understand now, we have to change our way of life and our moral code to save our way of life and moral code.

[YASNY]

Nuke, I have to disagree with you. It's not "worth it". It does matter how we treat captives. We, as a people, have to be able to look in the mirror every morning and know that we don't stoop to the savageness of the fanatical Islamists. The brutality of that Saddam regime, the mass graves, the maiming of soccer players, etc. is exactly a big part of our justification for being there, however flawed that justification may be. I do the type of things he did, we have no moral ground to stand on.

[Texsox]

It doesn't matter how we treat captives in this war they are still going to use every opportunity to saw off the head of any U.S. soldier they can get their mitts on so the hell with them. 

 

 

Like I said before if torturing these people saves one innocent life, prevents one attack or helps nail one terrorist then its all worth it.

Saddam Hussein has WMD and must be stopped.

 

Can't find them so . . .

 

. . . Saddam Hussein is torturing citizens he must be stopped.

 

Now we are saying torture is ok, perhaps we can use his old torture rooms, hire some of his old guys. People being tortured will say anything to make it stop. It is by a wide margin the most unreliable information you can get.

 

Perhaps Halliburton can start building racks, electroshock devices, cattle prods, etc. Great shining example of America.

 

After reading Nuke's comments I am beginning to wonder if the prisoner abuses were an isolated situation, and the guards involved felt it was wrong, but just following orders. Seems like soldiers may find it justified.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Saddam Hussein has WMD and must be stopped.

 

Can't find them so . . .

 

. . . Saddam Hussein is torturing citizens he must be stopped.

 

Now we are saying torture is ok, perhaps we can use his old torture rooms, hire some of his old guys. People being tortured will say anything to make it stop. It is by a wide margin the most unreliable information you can get.

 

Perhaps Halliburton can start building racks, electroshock devices, cattle prods, etc. Great shining example of America.

 

After reading Nuke's comments I am beginning to wonder if the prisoner abuses were an isolated situation, and the guards involved felt it was wrong, but just following orders. Seems like soldiers may find it justified.

Maybe I need to clarify.

 

Do I believe in torturing "the little brown savages" just for kicks.........no. Thats stupid and accomplishes nothing.

 

 

Do I believe in torturing suspects as a last resort in order to garner intelligence that can save innocent lives, prevent attacks or catch a high value target.........Absolutely. If I had reason to believe someone in my custody knew about an imminent attack that was going to kill a lot of people and wasn't talking what would I do? Hand him a box of candy and ask him nicely? Appeal to his heart? Hell no. I'd boil him in oil, rip out his fingernails, crank up the voltage,,, whatever it takes to get that info. What's the pain of a terrorist versus a bunch of innocent lives?

 

 

Am I some sort of extremist for having this viewpoint? Nope. I'll got a stack of hundreds that says nearly all of the military and a sizeable portion, if not an outright majority, of most folks outside the service agree with me.

[Texsox]

Maybe I need to clarify. 

 

Do I believe in torturing "the little brown savages" just for kicks.........no.  Thats stupid and accomplishes nothing.

 

 

Do I believe in torturing suspects as a last resort in order to garner intelligence that can save innocent lives, prevent attacks or catch a high value target.........Absolutely.  If I had reason to believe someone in my custody knew about an imminent attack that was going to kill a lot of people and wasn't talking what would I do?  Hand him a box of candy and ask him nicely? Appeal to his heart? Hell no.  I'd boil him in oil, rip out his fingernails, crank up the voltage,,, whatever it takes to get that info.  What's the pain of a terrorist versus a bunch of innocent lives? 

 

 

Am I some sort of extremist for having this viewpoint?  Nope.  I'll got a stack of hundreds that says nearly all of the military and a sizeable portion, if not an outright majority, of most folks outside the service agree with me.

Gee, you don't think the guy would lie to escape the torture, do you? And what do you do if the information is false? Execute them? How close to death are you willing to go, or is a street execution OK if time is critical and it saves dozens of lives?

 

 

 

 

Why do you think it is that civilized countries have all condemned torture?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

What would you do ooooooo pious one? Throw up your hands and say forget it? Put him back in his cell and give him a sandwich?

 

 

How about a nice fat dose of sodium pentathol? Is that humane enough for you?

[southsider2k5]

What would you do ooooooo pious one?  Throw up your hands and say forget it?  Put him back in his cell and give him a sandwich? 

 

 

How about a nice fat dose of sodium pentathol?  Is that humane enough for you?

How about setting up a humanitarian food for oil program to skim 50 cents a barrel off of, and then use to bribe people so no one wants to do anything about the bad things that you do?

[Texsox]

What would you do ooooooo pious one?  Throw up your hands and say forget it?  Put him back in his cell and give him a sandwich? 

 

 

How about a nice fat dose of sodium pentathol?  Is that humane enough for you?

No, I'd pull out his fingernails until he lied to me.

 

So I ask again, why is it that countries have banned torture? Do you eat with silverware or just use your mouth?

 

Do you really think the information is accurate? History has told us time and again that humans will lie to have the torture stopped. Or do you think with the proper amount of pain, they will tell the truth?

 

So you basically agree with Saddam Hussein that torture is a good thing?

[CrimsonWeltall]

i think we should pick up random iraqis off the street and question them about terrorism.

 

if they dont give us answers, we can torture them

 

if they still refuse, they must be working for al queda so we can kill them

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

No, I'd pull out his fingernails until he lied to me.

 

So I ask again, why is it that countries have banned torture? Do you eat with silverware or just use your mouth? 

 

Do you really think the information is accurate? History has told us time and again that humans will lie to have the torture stopped. Or do you think with the proper amount of pain, they will tell the truth? 

 

So you basically agree with Saddam Hussein that torture is a good thing?

You dont think that info gets crosschecked with what we already know?

 

According to several DOD and CIA officials testimony before Congress the information we've garnered from the interrogations ( which you say are so fruitless and full of false info ) have netted dozens of of suspects and helped roll up a significant portion of Al Quaeda.

 

Very Clever Guys'

 

In a speech on Dec. 11, CIA director George J. Tenet said that interrogations overseas have yielded significant returns recently. He calculated that worldwide efforts to capture or kill terrorists had eliminated about one-third of the al Qaeda leadership. "Almost half of our successes against senior al Qaeda members has come in recent months," he said.

 

Many of these successes have come as a result of information gained during interrogations. The capture of al Qaeda leaders Ramzi Binalshibh in Pakistan, Omar al-Faruq in Indonesia, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri in Kuwait and Muhammad al Darbi in Yemen were all partly the result of information gained during interrogations, according to U.S. intelligence and national security officials. All four remain under CIA control.

 

Time, rather than technique, has produced the most helpful information, several national security and intelligence officials said. Using its global computer database, the CIA is able to quickly check leads from captives in one country with information divulged by captives in another.

 

"We know so much more about them now than we did a year ago — the personalities, how the networks are established, what they think are important targets, how they think we will react," said retired Army general Wayne Downing, the Bush administration's deputy national security adviser for combating terrorism until he resigned in June.

 

I think you'll enjoy the source for the full article.

 

http://www.why-war.com/news/2002/12/26/torturet.html

 

 

Dont try to lump me or anyone else in government who advocate or use aggressive interrogation techniques with Saddam Hussein. You know where I stand on this issue.

 

BTW I'm really glad bleeding hearts like you aren't the ones making the call on how we get information. This is a nasty world Tex. Flowers, a box of candy and a smile dont get it done when you're dealing with people such as these.