southsider2k5 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 100% true. Joe Borchard was drafted in 2000, a the season before KW took over the GMs job. Also the two sandwich round picks in 2004 were pitchers in Lumsen and Gonzalez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 There are a lot of misstatements here. First, wasn't 2001 KW's 1st draft? And two, Schueler was the one who coordinated the Ritchie deal. 3rd, the "great" minor league system KW inherited [from 1998, 1999, 2000] was filled with busts. Few are making a big impact these days 1st.. Ur right about the draft My mistake(trust me those are very rare).... But Kw has a hard on for JB.. so I am sure KW had a huge part in his drafting 2nd.. A year and half after KW has the job, Ron is still helping out. That should telll you that KW should not have the job 3rd. Granted they were filled with Busts..but at the time we could have had better players in here for them 4th The real reason KW is still the GM is.. He his Cheap and is JR little b**** boy.. It doesn't matter than he can't handle the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 1st.. Ur right about the draft My mistake(trust me those are very rare).... But Kw has a hard on for JB.. so I am sure KW had a huge part in his drafting 2nd.. A year and half after KW has the job, Ron is still helping out. That should telll you that KW should not have the job 3rd. Granted they were filled with Busts..but at the time we could have had better players in here for them 4th The real reason KW is still the GM is.. He his Cheap and is JR little b**** boy.. It doesn't matter than he can't handle the job. Alright, first off, there are 5.3 million reasons the Sox haven't given up on Borchard. Second, if anyone were a fish out of water and hadn't experienced what it would be like to be a MLB GM, they would need some on the job training. Your 3rd point is stupid, and KW has made some good deals that just didn't pan out, he is an aggressive GM, you win some, you lose some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 JIM, I agree with you 100% I have said for years, that the SOx need to retool there whole system. But, why is it that it only started to go downhill once KW came into power? I mean we had one if not the best Minor league systems in the league. And now none of our homegrown talent ever makes it to this club. And if they do..They don't preform very well AKA JOE B. this was KW first ever draft pick..and at the time I didn't like it, This was the same year we thought we had enough SP in our system..and IMO you can never have enough SP in your farm system. And now look were we are at.. looking or SP. Know I don't know who we could have gotten besides him in that regards. The same thing goes with last years draft, we are still an organztion that needs SP, yet we go and draft a 3B? That right there just shows the faith KW has in Crede. I stopped liking KW, the Day he made the Ritchie deal, now granted none of the 3 we gave up were "great" at the time we could have gotten a much better deal for those players. Has he made some good moves..sure Colon. marte.. but overall...Him and allot of others needs to be let go and retool the system.. I mean look at the Cubs, they had one of the worse farm systems, and now they are oozzing with talent. BA rated the system as #1 and in retrospect that set up a huge and unfair expectation for Sox fans. That's not excusing the production from the minors, they need to do better. I question how they're handling pitchers. All organizations get arm injuries but it seems like Sox minor leaguers get more than normal. Homegrown talent ... Rowand, Lee, Maggs was homegrown, Crede and several others were obtained from other team's systems that are contributing. But you're right, there needs to be more. Borchard ... pointed out correctly it was Schueler's draft but KW was farm director and KW wanted Borchard, they were both Stanford guys. Per Phil Rogers chat in BA yesterday, most other teams had Borchard rated as a 1st rounder as well so it's not surprising he went high. The issue is development. The organization and Borchard are still at loggerheads regarding Borchard's intensity. They think he's too intense, needs to let his talent take over. Borchard thinks he is the way he is, and that's that. That's a problem, they've had him for over 4 years and they can't get through to him. As for last years draft, you take the best player available, period. 3B is a thin position all across the majors. You draft the best asset and trade later if you need to. It's not as simple as saying they took Fields because they have no faith in Crede. If they had no faith in Crede they would've traded him last winter. Look at all the picks after Fields ... all starting pitchers. You have to be fair in your comments. Lastly, I agree the Cubs system looks better than ours but s*** happens, they have guys they were drooling over who are now available in Rule 5. Not all their fault, a couple of guys had injuries (Sisco, Haggerty). But they're looking for a LF now and I bet the Cubbie fans are screaming about "why can't we develop a David Kelton" or whomever the Cubbie prospect of the month is. I pointed out in another thread how the Sox have shown committment to building up the farm. Most teams don't sign 19 of their top 20 picks. White Sox did, and it's very rare they don't sign most of their top choices. They are stacking the odds in their favor. That includes starting pitching, to get back on track here. They always look for tools but one thing they don't do well is draft pitchers who pound the strike zone. They're always drafting the Nick Lemon types, the Rylan Reed types ... "WOW, what a fastball, he throws 99 mph ... but oh yeah he walks as many as he strikes out." They need to rearrange their priorities IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 My mistake(trust me those are very rare).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I know. I'm praying that one day I don't have to work with a guy who has an ego the size of Anthrax's. This is a guy who rips on KW for the Berry/Barry deal, yet he thought Frankie Francisco was the closer for the Texas Rangers, not Francisco Cordero. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Trying to get this back on topic... I think that we are going to sign a FA starter but I don't it's someone as sought after as Pavano. I think we are more then likely going to get someone like Perez who really isn't getting much attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USAF_11F4H Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 ..and another original question: Does anyone know or care to speculate if Chicago is on that list of "AL tour cities" for Pavano? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I know. I'm praying that one day I don't have to work with a guy who has an ego the size of Anthrax's. This is a guy who rips on KW for the Berry/Barry deal, yet he thought Frankie Francisco was the closer for the Texas Rangers, not Francisco Cordero. :rolly The day I get paid what KW gets paid.. I won't make those mistakes.. KW is nothing more than a patsy...until you people realize this.. we will never win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I'm sorry I'm going back to the hijacked topic, but Anthrax...baseball drafts are nothing like football or basketball drafts. There are 50 rounds and I bet there is a relatively even number of low round draft choices in the majors as high round. Remember Buehrle was a low rounder. Mike Piazza was a low rounder. Some players bloom later in their careers. Some are or always will be AAAA players (Scott Ruffcorn anyone). Can't blame the draft for the farm system. A good chunk are from trades (Jon Garland, Willie Harris, etc.). So back off KW. He made some fantastic trades and pickups last year. We lost two of our best hitters and the heart of the team (at the time). Because of that, the team fell apart. kW can make all the right trades, but injuries can happen or the team may not jell. Or some other teams make better trades. Their are a million things that can happen, and that's what makes baseball fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Alright, first off, there are 5.3 million reasons the Sox haven't given up on Borchard. Second, if anyone were a fish out of water and hadn't experienced what it would be like to be a MLB GM, they would need some on the job training. Your 3rd point is stupid, and KW has made some good deals that just didn't pan out, he is an aggressive GM, you win some, you lose some. With KW.. its you lose some.. and the lose some more..and when all else fails..Lose some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Sorry but back to KW trade of Cotts, Diaz and Anderson for Fossum WHo here thinks that AZI is going to get robbed on this deal from KW? He said he wanted a AZI pitcher, at least this one will come here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Man, if you think that Garcia was a loss, you're crazy. In 2003, picking up Alomar and Everett was exactly the thing to do. So was Colon. So was Wells the year before. So which do you want...a stacked farm system or a World Series title, because there aren't too many organizations that have both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Sorry but back to KW trade of Cotts, Diaz and Anderson for Fossum WHo here thinks that AZI is going to get robbed on this deal from KW? He said he wanted a AZI pitcher, at least this one will come here! C'mon everybody...say it along with me... O-ver-pay-ing Clap, clap, clap clap clap... O-ver-pay-ing Clap, clap, clap clap clap... O-ver-pay-ing Clap, clap, clap clap clap... If KW does this, JR is enough of a baseball man to fire KW on the frickin' spot. Just curious, but do you like Anthrax or do you have Anthrax, cuz this trade is ree-goddamn-diculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 The day I get paid what KW gets paid.. I won't make those mistakes.. KW is nothing more than a patsy...until you people realize this.. we will never win. You said you could be a better GM than Kenny, yet you don't even know who the closer of the Texas Rangers is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Sorry but back to KW trade of Cotts, Diaz and Anderson for Fossum WHo here thinks that AZI is going to get robbed on this deal from KW? He said he wanted a AZI pitcher, at least this one will come here! Who f***ing gives a s*** about some trade idea you pulled out of your ass? Is there any point to your post, or are you just trying to get off by trolling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 TheDybber, Garcia.. is a flyball pitcher, in USCF normal fly balls are now HR. in 03, Alomar yes was needed..Carla wasn't. At the time of the deal Rowand was starting to hit and come into his own..But JM had a hard-on for Harris :puke to play CF and splitt time with Him. Colon was his best deal by far, but in the end we short changed him, instead of trying to sign Colon when we traded for him. Which lead to us wasting more prospects on Garcia. Just think for a moment if KW/JR would have signed Colon to a baseball contract, do you think for a momment that we would have went after Garcia? Now going into the 05 season, instead of moving Rowand over to RF and Reed in CF.. we are looking for another OF.. This is the type of s*** I am talking about, KW makes the wrong moves.. I am surprised we signed Garcia..and not let him walk as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 You said you could be a better GM than Kenny, yet you don't even know who the closer of the Texas Rangers is. And I don't make KW type money..Pay me the money I know the players.. Hell KW doesn't even know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ..and another original question: Does anyone know or care to speculate if Chicago is on that list of "AL tour cities" for Pavano? Don't think so. He's all but said no to Chicago by saying "he's not a fan of the midwest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ree-goddamn-diculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 TheDybber, Garcia.. is a flyball pitcher, in USCF normal fly balls are now HR. in 03, Alomar yes was needed..Carla wasn't. At the time of the deal Rowand was starting to hit and come into his own..But JM had a hard-on for Harris :puke to play CF and splitt time with Him. Colon was his best deal by far, but in the end we short changed him, instead of trying to sign Colon when we traded for him. Which lead to us wasting more prospects on Garcia. Just think for a moment if KW/JR would have signed Colon to a baseball contract, do you think for a momment that we would have went after Garcia? Now going into the 05 season, instead of moving Rowand over to RF and Reed in CF.. we are looking for another OF.. This is the type of s*** I am talking about, KW makes the wrong moves.. I am surprised we signed Garcia..and not let him walk as well. Have you SEEN Bartolo Colon this year? He has been godawful, and there is no way he was worth the $12 mil deal that he got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Have you SEEN Bartolo Colon this year? He has been godawful, and there is no way he was worth the $12 mil deal that he got. Correction... $13 million for 4 years :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Have you SEEN Bartolo Colon this year? He has been godawful, and there is no way he was worth the $12 mil deal that he got. Post All-Star Break 12-4 3.63 ERA Your right God awe-ful numbers, why would we want anyone that can win on the Sox I guess :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 TheDybber, Garcia.. is a flyball pitcher, in USCF normal fly balls are now HR. in 03, Alomar yes was needed..Carla wasn't. At the time of the deal Rowand was starting to hit and come into his own..But JM had a hard-on for Harris :puke to play CF and splitt time with Him. Colon was his best deal by far, but in the end we short changed him, instead of trying to sign Colon when we traded for him. Which lead to us wasting more prospects on Garcia. Just think for a moment if KW/JR would have signed Colon to a baseball contract, do you think for a momment that we would have went after Garcia? Now going into the 05 season, instead of moving Rowand over to RF and Reed in CF.. we are looking for another OF.. This is the type of s*** I am talking about, KW makes the wrong moves.. I am surprised we signed Garcia..and not let him walk as well. Rowand suffered a serious dirt bike accident and he simply wasn't getting the job done in CF as evident by the Sox calling up Harris and Borchard to play center. How exactly did you expect us to sign Colon when he wasn't a free agent before the 2003 season? Or did you want us to wait until after the 2003 season to get a quality pitcher and not even bother trying to be competitive for 2003? We gave up Liefer, Biddle, and Osuna or Colon and Jorge Nunez. The Sox offered Colon the largest pitching deal in the team's history (3 years $36-39 million,) but he turned it down and signed for more with the Angels ( 4 years $51 million.) Is that KW's fault? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 TheDybber, Garcia.. is a flyball pitcher, in USCF normal fly balls are now HR. in 03, Alomar yes was needed..Carla wasn't. At the time of the deal Rowand was starting to hit and come into his own..But JM had a hard-on for Harris :puke to play CF and splitt time with Him. Colon was his best deal by far, but in the end we short changed him, instead of trying to sign Colon when we traded for him. Which lead to us wasting more prospects on Garcia. Just think for a moment if KW/JR would have signed Colon to a baseball contract, do you think for a momment that we would have went after Garcia? Now going into the 05 season, instead of moving Rowand over to RF and Reed in CF.. we are looking for another OF.. This is the type of s*** I am talking about, KW makes the wrong moves.. I am surprised we signed Garcia..and not let him walk as well. Look... Colon is a flyball pitcher too. We got outbid for his services. He took the better deal. He didn't have much of a year this year IIRC. I think he turned it on in the second half. Rowand was turning it on in the second half last year, but he was still coming off that shoulder injury and the Sox didn't have faith in him for the stretch run and the playoffs if they got there. Neither would I. Everett, while kinda crazy, is still a proven player. And he did a pretty good job for us. And about GMs, I bet you could go through the resumes for every single GM and find a crappy trade. You go with need first. this team has been close for years in a weak division, so you go for it. you give up some players to get some players. We aren't the Yankees with bottomless pockets, all we have are prospects and the occasional big dollar FA. I would really like to know how you could do better with the limited information you have. You have no idea what goes into a deal, what goes into negotiations, what goes into the drafting process. you just blurt out, "KW is an idiot, because he doesn't do what I want him to do." Why don't you send him a letter or an email with all the gripes you've posted here and see what he has to say. Better yet, get a job with a baseball team and get an inside look at what goes into player personnel decisions...until then, unless you have an productive post, just shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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