WSFAN35 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 -best fans in baseball Best fans in baseball? I'd have to give that to my fellow posters here at soxtalk.com GO WHITE SOX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Here is what I believe a winner is. A winner is someone who comes through more than not in clutch/pressure situations. Someone that comes through in big games more often than not. A winner is someone who puts team first and self second. Moving the runner over, good baserunning, knowing the situations, sacrifice bunting, good fielding, just fundamentally sound. A winner is someone that is mentally strong and has a never say die attitude. I believe Renteria fits this description. I believe we have some of these kind of guys on our team already. Just because you have not played on winning team does not mean you are not a winner and just because you have played on a winning team does not mean you are a winner. You must possess certain qualities. So a winner is someone who plays small ball and has good clutch stats. Then let's say that, instead of winner -- everyone loves a "winner", but I don't like small ball. (That said, I like Renteria b/c he's a flat out good player -- hitting and fielding. $9 mil sounds steep, though, makes me a little queasy.) Btw, I don't know anything about his personality, but what is the evidence that Renteria is clutch? Looking at his splits last year, he seems to be about the same w/ RISP as w/o, and his "late & close" stats were bad. Over 3 yrs, w/ RISP seems about the same as w/o, maybe a bit better, but his late & close stats are below his overall averages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 what evidence is that he's clutch? He hade a game winning hit in the 7th game of a world series. Even if you want to brush that aside, he absolutely murders the cubs at times. I think he put up a 5-5 in one of the biggest games of the year in Wrigley. He's a really good player. Is he worth $9 million? Maybe not. But he's probably worth more that $7. It's like the Sports guy Steve Nash analogy. He said that the Suns paid $60 million for a guy everyobdoy thinks is a $45 million point guard. Even overpaying, you still have a $45 point guard. By the way, good call on calling Buehrle and Frank winners. I think Paulie CAN be that guy at times. YOu guys may not want to hear this, but at times Timo Perez was a pretty key guy (homer in FLorida, big hit if K-ROd). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Best fans in baseball? I'd have to give that to my fellow posters here at soxtalk.com GO WHITE SOX BUTT KISSER :rolly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 what evidence is that he's clutch? He hade a game winning hit in the 7th game of a world series. Even if you want to brush that aside, he absolutely murders the cubs at times. I think he put up a 5-5 in one of the biggest games of the year in Wrigley. He's a really good player. Is he worth $9 million? Maybe not. But he's probably worth more that $7. It's like the Sports guy Steve Nash analogy. He said that the Suns paid $60 million for a guy everyobdoy thinks is a $45 million point guard. Even overpaying, you still have a $45 point guard. By the way, good call on calling Buehrle and Frank winners. I think Paulie CAN be that guy at times. YOu guys may not want to hear this, but at times Timo Perez was a pretty key guy (homer in FLorida, big hit if K-ROd). As I said, I think he's a good player. But if coming through "more than not" is a characteristic of a winner, wouldn't it show up in the stats? As for overpaying, it eats away at your ability to sign other players. You may have a good player, but in baseball more than in basketball, you really have to worry about concentrating your resources too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Best fans in baseball? I'd have to give that to my fellow posters here at soxtalk.com GO WHITE SOX I hate to say it, but The cards have some of the best in the game... We can't even have a year full of sell-outs.. Big Difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Right but 4/40 million isn't an albatross. It's not a superb contract but there are worse ones to be made. Check out Crasnick today who has an article up on how there have been no good deals for teams yet. The market is correcting itself upward after the last few years. There is a chanc ethat $9-10 million for Renteria (who's under 30 I believe) will look like a nice deal when Nomar signs next offseason. Does being clutch show up in the stats? I'm not a stats guy. However, guys like Edgar Renteria and Luis Gonzalez would have to go 0-50 with the bases loaded to diminish as Word Series Game 7 winning hit. That and his rivalry games, all-star appearances, and playoff games shows that he's not going to be very bothered by tough situations. He will be quiet with the media because he does not like to speak English on camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 As I said, I think he's a good player. But if coming through "more than not" is a characteristic of a winner, wouldn't it show up in the stats? As for overpaying, it eats away at your ability to sign other players. You may have a good player, but in baseball more than in basketball, you really have to worry about concentrating your resources too much. Jackie, I agree with your whole argument, and everything you've posted. You can't really term a guy a winner. I mean, I'd consider Mark Buehrle a winner, yet what has he won besides the 2000 Central Title? Just because some guys on this team haven't won, doesn't make them 'losers', IMHO... And Beck, I wanted to ask -- why all of the pokes, or why such a willingness to trade Carlos Lee (maybe I worded the question incorrectly, but I sense a hint of dislike for him). IMHO, Carlos is the most complete player on this team, and I'm going out on a limb here, but I really believe he is so close from having an absolutely awesome year. He's shown us that he can get better at every aspect of his game -- power, contact, OBP, defense, stealing bases -- he's everything you can want in a player, IMO. You say that Ozzie and Kenny have said that he doesn't have "it" ("it" being that mental makeup, or winners mentality), yet I'm gonna call BS on that. He's improved his defense to the point where, he's one of the best LFers in the game (defensively). Last thing -- it hasn't been mentioned yet, but is anyone else besides me skeptical of giving Renteria 10+ million? I'd be real happy if we can get him for four years at eight million per, but going above ten is too much. He's just a little too inconsistent for my liking. I'll say this -- if we do sign him at ten million for multiple years, it won't be terrible, but I might question it a little bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Right but 4/40 million isn't an albatross. It's not a superb contract but there are worse ones to be made. Check out Crasnick today who has an article up on how there have been no good deals for teams yet. The market is correcting itself upward after the last few years. There is a chanc ethat $9-10 million for Renteria (who's under 30 I believe) will look like a nice deal when Nomar signs next offseason. Does being clutch show up in the stats? I'm not a stats guy. However, guys like Edgar Renteria and Luis Gonzalez would have to go 0-50 with the bases loaded to diminish as Word Series Game 7 winning hit. That and his rivalry games, all-star appearances, and playoff games shows that he's not going to be very bothered by tough situations. He will be quiet with the media because he does not like to speak English on camera. I'm not arguing too hard about the contract, b/c I think Renteria's a good shot to recover from this past season, but in principle, still, never overpay for anyone. Whether or not $9 mil, $10 mil is overpaying, I'm not sure. As for the WS hit, though, for me it's still just 1 ab. Craig Counsell had some big abs in the postseason too, and he can play small ball, bunt, steal, etc. Noone wants him on the SS. Anyway, I don't want to take this any further. I just object to saying a player's good b/c he's a winner, b/c it shuts down all debate. How is someone supposed to answer that if they disagree? I don't like winners, or he's not a winner? The first is absurd, the second sounds silly b/c his team won. I want arguments with more meat on the bone, that's all. I'm through. I don't want to be seen as anti-Renteria, b/c I'm absolutely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Last thing -- it hasn't been mentioned yet, but is anyone else besides me skeptical of giving Renteria 10+ million? I'd be real happy if we can get him for four years at eight million per, but going above ten is too much. He's just a little too inconsistent for my liking. I'll say this -- if we do sign him at ten million for multiple years, it won't be terrible, but I might question it a little bit... No way no how does renteria's stats justify ten million dollars per year. I am going by his career stats and not just last years. Now i am not saying i would be pissed about signing him but like you said i would question it some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Last thing -- it hasn't been mentioned yet, but is anyone else besides me skeptical of giving Renteria 10+ million? I'd be real happy if we can get him for four years at eight million per, but going above ten is too much. He's just a little too inconsistent for my liking. I'll say this -- if we do sign him at ten million for multiple years, it won't be terrible, but I might question it a little bit... Tejada got, 12 and look at the season that he had in 03..ANd now that looks like a fa-king bargin. ANd you people don't want to pay the man his money because of one bad season??? But, Jaret fa-king Wright has one good season, and you people want to give him the keys to the city :rolly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Tejada got, 12 and look at the season that he had in 03..ANd now that looks like a fa-king bargin. ANd you people don't want to pay the man his money because of one bad season??? But, Jaret fa-king Wright has one good season, and you people want to give him the keys to the city :rolly I'm questioning it because he hasn't been able to put it all together for a whole season. Case in point: 2003 - Obviously, an awesome season, but his OPS is always jumping around. It's been from the mid-600s, to the high 870's (only once). Usually, it's right in between there, 700's or so, but he's never really been consistent. Again, I'm not saying that I'd hate this signing, but, for ten million dollars (about one/seventh of our payroll), don't you want a guy who you KNOW is going to give you a .300+ Average, .850 (at least) OPS, right around there? And as for your Jared Wright comment, I've stated that two years is the most I'd give him, with six million per year being my highest offer. Considering that Benson got over seven million per year (basically setting the standard, this offseason for pitchers), I'd call that a bargain. Anything more than three years, six million (unless the third year is an option year), I'd move on to another pitcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hmmmm In my White Sox history Book it says Tom Haller replaced Hawk. Ohh well maybe my bok is wrong Hawk actually brought in Haller. Haller did the paperwork part of the job IIRC. Hawk was overwhelmed by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Tejada got, 12 and look at the season that he had in 03..ANd now that looks like a fa-king bargin. ANd you people don't want to pay the man his money because of one bad season??? But, Jaret fa-king Wright has one good season, and you people want to give him the keys to the city :rolly Damn right i would sign tejada for 12 million per year. He is capable of numbers that renteria cannot even get close to. His career slugging and ops blows renteria's out of the water while being better defensively. I know you find that hard to believe and will say something like well renteria is just better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I'm not saying that I'd hate this signing, but, for ten million dollars (about one/seventh of our payroll), don't you want a guy who you KNOW is going to give you a .300+ Average, .850 (at least) OPS, right around there? Which is why the orioles were smart for picking up tejada, he is just going into his prime now and will be damn good for another four to five years. As he gets older he will be showing a little bit better consistency in all his categories. Which you cannot really say about renteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Damn right i would sign tejada for 12 million per year. He is capable of numbers that renteria cannot even get close to. His career slugging and ops blows renteria's out of the water while being better defensively. I know you find that hard to believe and will say something like well renteria is just better. Wow, like always your wrong... I would not take Tejada over Renteria, I actually agree that Tejada would be better than Renteria with the Stick.. But, notice how his numbers dropped once he had no one in the line-up to hit behind him? Much like this SS I have been talking about for a while.. But, with that said I was only comparing the fact that Tejada had a bad year much like Renteria, and I think we can all agree that 81 games at the Cell would help pat those stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Which is why the orioles were smart for picking up tejada, he is just going into his prime now and will be damn good for another four to five years. As he gets older he will be showing a little bit better consistency in all his categories. Which you cannot really say about renteria. I'll admit, the same thing just might happen to Renteria. However, the difference between Tejada last year @ twelve million and Renteria this year @ ten million is that Tejada had four straight years of an OPS above .800, while Renteria has been up and down. Renteria COULD do that, I'm just saying that I like giving a player ten million when I KNOW he can do that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 You could make an argument that nobody is better than Tejada right now given his position, etc. Nobody will argue (I hope) that Edgar is better. If Tejada came into free agency this year he'd be as or more sought after than Beltran. I cannot possibly agree that soxtalk has given the keys of the city to wright. There was in fact a very spirited debate on him and nobody mentioned CY Young or World Series. As far as the Edgar talk again, he's probably a better player than some of his detractors have led on today. I think Qwerty probably had it right when saying that it's not a good contract at 4/40 but not one worht crying over. Listen, the market really looks like it's rebounding so I think that it could be a fair contract. I go to school down in Carbondale and get to watch the Cards every day. He is a terrific defensive player and does everything well. Also, you have to give him the benefit of an increased OPS as our park is a bit better to hit in. Overall, good discussion so far. Some good points made. The one individual who complained about the "winner" label now knows how us stat guys feel when we're told a guy isn;t that good becaus ehis OBP isn't high enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I would not take Tejada over Renteria, I actually agree that Tejada would be better than Renteria with the Stick.. But, notice how his numbers dropped once he had no one in the line-up to hit behind him? Much like this SS I have been talking about for a while.. Then wouldn't that put Renteria on the wrong side of your argument? By your argument, a player should hit better when he is in a lineup that has a lot of other good hitters. Well, unless Renteria stays in St. Louis, he isn't going to go to any team with a better lineup. So -- using your argument -- his numbers, should in fact, worsen, because he won't have the protection of Walker, Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds... BTW - can you clarify Tejada's dropoff in numbers, because like I said, five straight seasons with an OPS of .800+ is damn good, even in a pitchers park at Oakland, with an OK (talking '00-'03 Athletics) lineup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Then wouldn't that put Renteria on the wrong side of your argument? By your argument, a player should hit better when he is in a lineup that has a lot of other good hitters. Well, unless Renteria stays in St. Louis, he isn't going to go to any team with a better lineup. So -- using your argument -- his numbers, should in fact, worsen, because he won't have the protection of Walker, Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds... BTW - can you clarify Tejada's dropoff in numbers, because like I said, five straight seasons with an OPS of .800+ is damn good, even in a pitchers park at Oakland, with an OK (talking '00-'03 Athletics) lineup... Everyone has a bad year even though you are stacked with a great line-up...Much like Renteria was last year.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I don't understand the people who want to diminish Tejada. He had a rough ALDS in 03 but he knocked in 150 runs in a line-up that probably wasn't any better than ours. Why don't people want to give Miguel some dap as one of the very best int he game? I've got some ideas, curious on yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Everyone has a bad year even though you are stacked with a great line-up...Much like Renteria was last year.. OK, but the fact remains he hasn't ever been consistantly as good as Tejada. Only twice has he put up an OPS over .800. Don't take this as me not liking Renteria. I like Edgar at eight million per, but, IMHO, ten million is too much for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Wow, like always your wrong... I would not take Tejada over Renteria, I actually agree that Tejada would be better than Renteria with the Stick.. But, notice how his numbers dropped once he had no one in the line-up to hit behind him? Much like this SS I have been talking about for a while.. But, with that said I was only comparing the fact that Tejada had a bad year much like Renteria, and I think we can all agree that 81 games at the Cell would help pat those stats. Stfu, you don't know what you are talking about. Never have never will. How the f*** have you not gotten banned yet i will never know. You are a arrogant piece of s*** that thinks you know all and that far from the case. Do you post just to anger people? Because you have done a very good job of it. No one likes you on this site not one damn person. So why come back? You are repetitive with your cabrera hard on, polanco hatred, wright hatred, and your knew one podsednik is the new rickey henderson bulls***. Always telling people they are wrong when they have a good arguement or you are just flat out wrong. Got really old after about the first twenty minutes after you registered. People have tried to give you friendly advice, and did you use it? No, of course not. That may make some sense and be helpful. I will probally get suspended for calling you and arrogant piece of s*** but that is o.k. with me because that is exactly what you are. You have killed nearly every single f***ing thread you have been in and i would be surprised if people have not left the site until you get banned or are barely posting be of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Stfu, you don't know what you are talking about. Never have never will. How the f*** have you not gotten banned yet i will never know. You are a arrogant piece of s*** that thinks you know all and that far from the case. Do you post just to anger people? Because you have done a very good job of it. No one likes you on this site not one damn person. So why come back? You are repetitive with your cabrera hard on, polanco hatred, wright hatred, and your knew one podsednik is the new rickey henderson bulls***. Always telling people they are wrong when they have a good arguement or you are just flat out wrong. Got really old after about the first twenty minutes after you registered. People have tried to give you friendly advice, and did you use it? No, of course not. That may make some sense and be helpful. I will probally get suspended for calling you and arrogant piece of s*** but that is o.k. with me because that is exactly what you are. You have killed nearly every single f***ing thread you have been in and i would be surprised if people have not left the site until you get banned or are barely posting be of you. HMMM.. I think you should be banned I mean your taking personal attacks toward me and that is just not allowed. So I will make sure the admins know.. maybe on your time off you can study up. Here I found you a book If you ask Nice maybe I buy it for you for X-mas.. Too help you out. And as far as noone likeing me.. Do you think I joined to make friends? Maybe you did, I did to inform the gernal public on what the Sox need to do to win. Which so far you seem to miss that point. I mean unless its players no one wants that the only time I hear about a player that would fit on the Sox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 HMMM.. I think you should be banned I mean your taking personal attacks toward me and that is just not allowed. So I will make sure the admins know.. maybe on your time off you can study up. Here I found you a book If you ask Nice maybe I buy it for you for X-mas.. Too help you out. And as far as noone likeing me.. Do you think I joined to make friends? Maybe you did, I did to inform the gernal public on what the Sox need to do to win. Which so far you seem to miss that point. I mean unless its players no one wants that the only time I hear about a player that would fit on the Sox. If i get banned for saying what we all feel all i can say is i will greatly miss soxtalk. But i will get over it. At least i would not have to put up with you so that is a plus. Plus i highly doubt for a first offense i would get banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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