Hatchetman Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Any reason you think that? I'm guessing he has this season and the next to win, maybe just one. he keeps his gms (baseball&basketball) for a looong time. hawk & schuler quit on their own. he hated himes personally for some reason. krause was gm for like 18 years. KW isn't completely incompetent. did he fire roland hemond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Seeing from the hot stove thread, Ozzie mentioned the Sox going after Renteria. With a supposed 4 yr, $32 mill backloaded deal offered by STL, and few teams w/ that big of interest left, the Sox could be one of the top teams left to land him for prob. under $40 mill, 4yrs. If Edgar came on board [i know it's a big if, but Ozzie seems to definitely want a veteran leader at SS], a trade would have to happen. First, Harris would probably be traded. Uribe would be the starting 2B. Harris has value now, and would have none being on the bench, pinch running, etc. Wilson Valdez wouldn't be bad for a UTL role. Or, signing Robbie Alomar to the league minimum might not be too crazy. His ability to hit LH would fit in. A team like TB needs a 2b, and a package starting w/ Willie, Borchard and an arm [or Willie and Gload] could probably get Danys Baez for the bullpen. Baez will make $3.5 mill in 2005. TB could use salary relief, and if they could get 2, 3 guys for their 25 man roster for 1 arm [they have a possible closer in Jesus Colome], they might do it. another option is a Harris + deal for Jose Cruz. Jr. , though I'm not that impressed by Cruz. Baez is the RH setup guy that would do well for the sox. He could close games if Shingo gets hurt, or fails. He can go more than 1 inning, and pitch a few days in a row, as he was a SP, and has done it in the past] And he's only 27, and the sox would have an option yr in 2006 for $4mill. While TB is one team that could use a 2B, I haven't thought of other teams that could want Willie. Thoughts? I I only Wish we could land Renteria. Robbie Alomar?? No way he's hurt in WinterBall rather Have Willie. Willie will se time at second and Center. RUmor is that Frank wouldn't be outta his cast yet and spring traning is far away. So gload could be playing some first while Paulie Dh's as does Everett. Uribe will spell Crede at third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 he keeps his gms (baseball&basketball) for a looong time. hawk & schuler quit on their own. he hated himes personally for some reason. krause was gm for like 18 years. KW isn't completely incompetent. did he fire roland hemond? Good points, but I still don't think KW has carte blanche. I mean, Hawk may have left on his own, but... There's a reason it only took a year. And Krause had really earned the tenure. (JMHO, I don't want to get into an all-b/c-of-MJ argument here.) As for Hemond, I don't really know. I don't think he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 as an aside I think KW has the job for life if he wants it. JR's life that is. Are you kidding? KW doesn't have to produce a winner and he'll still have a job? Everyone has to produce some time. And there comes a time when people run out of excuses why they haven't won. KW's time is running out, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hawk was Fired. Tom Haller Replaced Hawk. Hawk did s*** as GM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Alright, already. We know you like Podsednik. But, what will you give up for him and do you think he's going to get back to 2003 stats? As for Willie as leadoff, hey, with an offseason of Tim Raines, maybe things will click. He's young and can still improve. Plus, he's the best defensive 2b we've had since Cora. Just for the record I want Scott Pod As Far as Who we can give up for him...Follow me here, and this is just off the top of my head Sign Renteria Trade Crede for Spod and prospects 1b. Pauly 2b Harris SS Renteria 3b Uribe LF LEe CF SPod RF Rowand DH/Thomas/Carla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hawk was Fired. Tom Haller Replaced Hawk. Hawk did s*** as GM He fired LaRussa. :headshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 Just curious... Why do you put quotes around "winner"? Because there are many intangibles/ qualities that a person can use to describe a "winner", and don't think it's easily defined. I think the sox have a lot of decent, talented players. But do they have enough winners? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Just for the record I want Scott Pod As Far as Who we can give up for him...Follow me here, and this is just off the top of my head Sign Renteria Trade Crede for Spod and prospects 1b. Pauly 2b Harris SS Renteria 3b Uribe LF LEe CF SPod RF Rowand DH/Thomas/Carla Yeah Right, Like Crede is gonna get us Spod and some Prospects.. Yeahhhhh Riiighhtt!! Ahemmmm SO milwaukee is gonna give up a farm hand for a .230 hitting 3rd baseman. THEY ALREADY GOT ONE NAMED WES HELMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Just for the record I want Scott Pod As Far as Who we can give up for him...Follow me here, and this is just off the top of my head Sign Renteria Trade Crede for Spod and prospects 1b. Pauly 2b Harris SS Renteria 3b Uribe LF LEe CF SPod RF Rowand DH/Thomas/Carla I like it, except Uribe isn't a third baseman. He's ok. But he's more suited for a middle infielder position. and they aren't giving up on crede just yet. I wish we could move Konerko to the Brewers for SPod and Kolb. But that won't work because the Brew Crew has Prince Fielder coming in next year. Plus, Lyle Overbay and Wes Helms. Damn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Because there are many intangibles/ qualities that a person can use to describe a "winner", and don't think it's easily defined. I think the sox have a lot of decent, talented players. But do they have enough winners? I don't think so. But if it's hard to define what a winner is, how do we know we don't have them? And how do we know if Renteria is one? The reason I asked is simply that I don't trust arguments where terms aren't defined well -- and putting something in quotes usually means that it's kind of a fuzzy term. This is one example -- Renteria is a "winner". Does that mean that the Cards won't win without him? If so, why? And would Uribe be a winner if the Sox had won? I would understand if you said that he has greater mental fortitude, or a better obp -- something concrete. But saying he's a "winner", how can that be judged without a better definition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 I only Wish we could land Renteria. Robbie Alomar?? No way he's hurt in WinterBall rather Have Willie. Willie will se time at second and Center. RUmor is that Frank wouldn't be outta his cast yet and spring traning is far away. So gload could be playing some first while Paulie Dh's as does Everett. Uribe will spell Crede at third. The market for Renteria is pretty small. No Red sox, cubs sound like they're going fater Nomar, the Angels will prob stick with Eckstein and go after either Beltran or RJ. If the sox only have to beat STL's 4 yrs, $32 mill with most of the money backloaded, it's very doable. Esp. if Ozzie wants a proven winner for SS IMO, Harris would have more value to the sox with what he bring back in a trade. He could very well stick around. Yet it would also depress his value being a bench player/ pinch runner. I think the sox would be better with Valdez able to play SS and 2b, with Uribe giving Crede a rest at 3b. With Frank's health a question mark, Pk could stick around. But it might mean Lee being the trade bait / salary dump instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Not to jump in here, but I consider someone like Reggie Sanders a winner. Except for 2003, when he was on the Pirates, who won't win for a while, Reggie Sanders has been in the playoffs like 4 out of the last 5 years or something crazy like that. Granted he's moved around a lot, but each of those teams got a little better with Sanders on the team. I'm not saying the Sox should get him, but he is one of those guys that completes a team. Solid, good clubhouse guy, leads by example, works his tail off. 1991-1998 Did pretty well for Cin 1999 Best player on San Diego that year 2000 1st in NL East with Atlanta 2001 WS Champs with Arizona 2002 Won NL Pennant with SF 2003 Pirates 2004 Won NL Pennant with StL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Not to jump in here, but I consider someone like Reggie Sanders a winner. Except for 2003, when he was on the Pirates, who won't win for a while, Reggie Sanders has been in the playoffs like 4 out of the last 5 years or something crazy like that. Granted he's moved around a lot, but each of those teams got a little better with Sanders on the team. I'm not saying the Sox should get him, but he is one of those guys that completes a team. Solid, good clubhouse guy, leads by example, works his tail off. 1991-1998 Did pretty well for Cin 1999 Best player on San Diego that year 2000 1st in NL East with Atlanta 2001 WS Champs with Arizona 2002 Won NL Pennant with SF 2003 Pirates 2004 Won NL Pennant with StL So is a winner a player who's on winning teams a lot (Enrique Wilson), or someone who's a good clubhouse guy and a hard worker (Jose Valentin), or both (in which case noone on the Sox is a winner)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 So is a winner a player who's on winning teams a lot (Enrique Wilson), or someone who's a good clubhouse guy and a hard worker (Jose Valentin), or both (in which case noone on the Sox is a winner)? Both. When a team is a player away, Sanders is the type of guy that can push you over the top. There are lot's of players on winning teams that spell someone for a day or two (Enrique Wilson). And lot's of hard workers and good clubhouse guys that haven't won anything (Jose Valentin). Another player in Sanders mold, to me at least, is Miguel Cairo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 beck72, I didn't read the part about Crede. And Like I stated that was off the top of my head the trade deal, IMO I rather have Crede than Helms.. but neither are studs yet IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 But if it's hard to define what a winner is, how do we know we don't have them? And how do we know if Renteria is one? The reason I asked is simply that I don't trust arguments where terms aren't defined well -- and putting something in quotes usually means that it's kind of a fuzzy term. This is one example -- Renteria is a "winner". Does that mean that the Cards won't win without him? If so, why? And would Uribe be a winner if the Sox had won? I would understand if you said that he has greater mental fortitude, or a better obp -- something concrete. But saying he's a "winner", how can that be judged without a better definition? that's why I put "winners" in quotes. Because it probably can't even be measured. I'll take a stab at it and say a player who always seems to come up with a way to help the team when it needs it, whether its a SB, a bunt, a SF, a nice play in the field, etc. Some people call it "heart", "desire", being "clutch", whatever. But one thing is for sure, the Sox have had arguably the best talent in the division for the last four years, and still haven't won the division. I'd say the Sox are short on "winners". KW may call them grinders, whatever. The sox [with the same core of players] haven't gotten the job done. Something is wrong with the makeup of the Sox. And it will take more than just the departures of Maggs and Jose V. to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Edgar had a game winning WS hit so I guess that qualifies as a winner. I'm not a stat guy so I do buy into things like "winners" but it's still not hard and fast. There are probably very few guys who can instantly transforn a team, and Miguel Tejada is one of those guys. His infectious energy and 150 RBI's make that 12 million a year look like a steal. It'd sure have been nice to see him play somewhere in the midwest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 So is a winner a player who's on winning teams a lot (Enrique Wilson), or someone who's a good clubhouse guy and a hard worker (Jose Valentin), or both (in which case noone on the Sox is a winner)? Here is what I believe a winner is. A winner is someone who comes through more than not in clutch/pressure situations. Someone that comes through in big games more often than not. A winner is someone who puts team first and self second. Moving the runner over, good baserunning, knowing the situations, sacrifice bunting, good fielding, just fundamentally sound. A winner is someone that is mentally strong and has a never say die attitude. I believe Renteria fits this description. I believe we have some of these kind of guys on our team already. Just because you have not played on winning team does not mean you are not a winner and just because you have played on a winning team does not mean you are a winner. You must possess certain qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 3, 2004 Author Share Posted December 3, 2004 Here is what I believe a winner is. A winner is someone who comes through more than not in clutch/pressure situations. Someone that comes through in big games more often than not. A winner is someone who puts team first and self second. Moving the runner over, good baserunning, knowing the situations, sacrifice bunting, good fielding, just fundamentally sound. A winner is someone that is mentally strong and has a never say die attitude. I believe Renteria fits this description. I believe we have some of these kind of guys on our team already. Just because you have not played on winning team does not mean you are not a winner and just because you have played on a winning team does not mean you are a winner. You must possess certain qualities. Well said. I too believe the sox have some winners on the team. Buerhle comes to mind. Rowand. Frank. I just don't believe the sox have enough of them [esp. the core guys making the most money] or else they'd have won since 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hawk was Fired. Tom Haller Replaced Hawk. Hawk did s*** as GM Boy, I don't recall Tom Haller replacing Hawk, even on an interim basis. I checked the White Sox Encyclopedia, and they have Hawk resigning on 9/25/86 and Himes being hired on 10/29/86. But Hawk sure did suck, I'm with you on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Edgar had a game winning WS hit so I guess that qualifies as a winner. I'm not a stat guy so I do buy into things like "winners" but it's still not hard and fast. There are probably very few guys who can instantly transforn a team, and Miguel Tejada is one of those guys. His infectious energy and 150 RBI's make that 12 million a year look like a steal. It'd sure have been nice to see him play somewhere in the midwest Punch, I have been comparing Renteria, and his price tag to Tejada.. Going into the offseason last year people had questions about Tejada and wow now he does look like a bargin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Boy, I don't recall Tom Haller replacing Hawk, even on an interim basis. I checked the White Sox Encyclopedia, and they have Hawk resigning on 9/25/86 and Himes being hired on 10/29/86. But Hawk sure did suck, I'm with you on that. Hmmmm In my White Sox history Book it says Tom Haller replaced Hawk. Ohh well maybe my bok is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USAF_11F4H Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 To the original question: Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggliopipe Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 renteria loves st. louis, and i don't blame him... -105 win team -perennial playoff contenders with arguably baseball's best offense -distinct possiblity of adding randy johnson to 105 win team -best fans in baseball -new stadium opening soon what incentive is there to leave, especially to go to the perpetually underachieving southside of chicago? i think the sox would have to offer a significantly better contract to land him... at least an extra 2mil per season or an extra season... i'd be shocked if he ended up with us. i hope to be shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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