qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Gibbons had an injury plagued year last year and was bad as a result. He's a decent player when healthy. Nowhere near Ordonez' class, but a decent player. No, he is bad. A right fielder that cannot even have an ops of .800? Valentin has a better career obp, .451 slugging for a right fielder? Mediocore fielder also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 No, he is bad. A right fielder that cannot even have an ops of .800? Valentin has a betetr career obp, .451 slugging for a right fielder? Mediocore fielder also. I've watched him play a lot, he's not as bad as you suggest. He was improving every year until last year when injuries really beat him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I've watched him play a lot, he's not as bad as you suggest. He was improving every year until last year when injuries really beat him up. How can you not improve on a .236 average? No matter what he is never gonna be a high obp/ops guy which you want from a right fielder. He is not the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 How can you not improve on a .236 average? No matter what he is never gonna be a high obp/ops guy which you want from a right fielder. He is no the answer. Would you be opposed to bringing him in for a very minimum contract and have him compete for the right field position to see if Carl is in shape?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Would you be opposed to bringing him in for a very minimum contract and have him compete for the right field position to see if Carl is in shape?? Not at all, but he will be making around 2.5 which is too much for him imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Bruce says KW is adament about getting a strikeout pitcher. That be excellent. We already have Garcia and Contreras who are good strikeout pitchers, IMO. Getting a 3rd strikeout pitcher would make me feel good about our starting rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I've watched him play a lot, he's not as bad as you suggest. He was improving every year until last year when injuries really beat him up. Agreed. AJ, you got to stop using career s*** as excuses simply cause a certain younger player hasn't been in the league as long as that particualar veteran (Gibs and Val in this case) You nor I don't know if he'll improve alot down the line of his career (in his prime) I think Gibs is a good player with great potential. I'd take him but wouldn't be one of my top teir list you know. And maybe he'll turn into a stud..... looks wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 That be excellent. We already have Garcia and Contreras who are good strikeout pitchers, IMO. Getting a 3rd strikeout pitcher would make me feel good about our starting rotation. Plus MB was in the top 10 in the AL in K's this year. Having 4 strikeout guys would be huge playing in such a hitters park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Agreed. AJ, you got to stop using career s*** as excuses simply cause a certain younger player hasn't been in the league as long as that particualar veteran (Gibs and Val in this case) You nor I don't know if he'll improve alot down the line of his career (in his prime) I think Gibs is a good player with great potential. I'd take him but wouldn't be one of my top teir list you know. And maybe he'll turn into a stud..... looks wise. If he had an ops of .900 and good slugging numbers, then i would not care if his obp was .315, which is terrible. He does nothing very well. I don't see a use for him. Also i think comparing his obp to valentin's obp is a good comparison because we all know how little he gets on base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Do you think the animosity towards Willie is still related to him doing that espn/groupie piece as a white sox rookie a couple of years ago? I know I heard many were upset with him over that. Willie has really worn out on me but I don't mind starting the year with the caveat that we'd go get someon at the deadling if Willie stinks. I am not a Billy Beane boy but I agree that you spend part of the season determining what you have and then getting what you need. THis is not to say that you don't make offseason moves, but I think you can catch my point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Plus MB was in the top 10 in the AL in K's this year. Having 4 strikeout guys would be huge playing in such a hitters park. Good call. I can't believe I forgot Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 How can you not improve on a .236 average? No matter what he is never gonna be a high obp/ops guy which you want from a right fielder. He is not the answer. I didn't say he was the answer. I said he was a decent player. It's not all about OPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Good call. I can't believe I forgot Mark. You're allowed to leave him out on that one. It's just weird to ever think of Mark as a strikeout pitcher, even though that is what he's become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 It's not all about OPS. Well if you don't get on base or hit for extra bases than what good are you, especially as a right fielder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hell Gibbons would be a better choice than Borch right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I didn't say he was the answer. I said he was a decent player. It's not all about OPS. Never said you said he was the answer. He does nothing well enough at this point in time to start for us. Ops along with slugging and obp are some of the most important stats in the game. Right fielders are suppose to have some of your teams best numbers in each of those categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Well if you don't get on base or hit for extra bases than what good are you, especially as a right fielder? Power and rbi machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Terry Ryan has been GM of the Twins since 1994. From 1994-2000 the Twins had 3 last place finishes and 4 fourth place finshes. THEY DIDN"T EVEN HAVE SINGLE WINNING SEASON, yet they kept the guy. Had you been owner of the Twins you would've fired Ryan in 1998 and still be in last place. You copy and paste this information from Cheat's post? Just as members believe Minnesota's farm system is the league exception, so is the status of Terry Ryan. During Minnesota's terrible stretch, Cleveland was dominating the division, in addition to the accepted notion Twins were rebuilding. Meanwhile William's reign begun following the dismantling of Cleveland, and practically a paved road to the playoffs. Compare Ryan's mid 90's debacle to Tampa Bay. Would their general manager (I have no idea who he is) be fired for poor finishes every season since their conception? No, becaues they are in the same division as the Yanks/Boston. Minnesota was rebuilding in the 90's, and their general manager made no mistake otherwise. No one was threatening Clevelands position atop the ALC. Perhaps their World Series championship several years earlier put less pressure on management. We've failed to achieve a divisional championship since 2000, and seemingly the only guarantee with this club is a mediocre team. It upsets me year in year out when Williams assembles a team he believes can compete for the division, and they continue to fall short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Power and rbi machine. His slugging would be higher then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Well if you don't get on base or hit for extra bases than what good are you, especially as a right fielder? The point I'm trying to make: He's a relatively young player who had more or less a breakout year in 2003. 2004 was a disaster for him, he had a back problem and some other health issue, and showed a fair amount of grit by not complaining and doing his best to play through things. He improved two years in a row, had a nice 2003 with 20+ HR and 100 rbi's, and then came 2004. Look at the progression of the player and factor that in, vs. strictly looking at career stats or even worse, what his stats were in 2004. There's a bigger picture other than just career OPS. That's what scouts are for, to determine if this guy's got an upside and can he be productive in another organization. He's a decent lefthanded bat, when healthy. He's not the greatest but he's not the worst solution either. I'd rather him than relying on Everett totally, or "someone" with Borchard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 If he had an ops of .900 and good slugging numbers, then i would not care if his obp was .315, which is terrible. He does nothing very well. I don't see a use for him. Also i think comparing his obp to valentin's obp is a good comparison because we all know how little he gets on base. $2.5 mil may be steep. But I think he's got a lot more value than you're suggesting. He's likely to have an obp of .300-.350. Since he managed a .330 obp over a full season (>600 abs), I don't think the upper end of that is implausible. Plus he was inconsistent last season, good at the beginning and end, bad around the injury -- which makes the injury a plausible excuse. And he's a left-handed batter with some power, something the Sox have sorely needed. I think he could be a good pickup. Worst case scenario, he's an upgrade over Borchard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 His slugging would be higher then. Like Jim said, injuries have limited his chances this year. I'm dead serious AJ, he is not as bad as you think he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Some Sox fan is on now, typical long winded question. Levine commenting Mackoviack of Pittsburgh is someone the Cubs want. Wills downplays Lugo, Hidalgo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Like Jim said, injuries have limited his chances this year. I'm dead serious AJ, he is not as bad as you think he is. I am not talking about last year, overall. How much you think he is worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 The point I'm trying to make: He's a relatively young player who had more or less a breakout year in 2003. 2004 was a disaster for him, he had a back problem and some other health issue, and showed a fair amount of grit by not complaining and doing his best to play through things. He improved two years in a row, had a nice 2003 with 20+ HR and 100 rbi's, and then came 2004. Look at the progression of the player and factor that in, vs. strictly looking at career stats or even worse, what his stats were in 2004. There's a bigger picture other than just career OPS. That's what scouts are for, to determine if this guy's got an upside and can he be productive in another organization. He's a decent lefthanded bat, when healthy. He's not the greatest but he's not the worst solution either. I'd rather him than relying on Everett totally, or "someone" with Borchard. We are gonna have to agree to disagree about gibbons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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