Dick Allen Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 Sure the Sox put a spin on it. So has Boras. I have no problem with going to Vienna for surgery, whether the name was supplied by the Sox or not. I DO have a problem with Magglio and Boras not allowing his current employer not allowing a look at the knee. I don't think ballplayers only get payed when they are playing...i would imagine they spread the payments over the year, since they are doing offseason work for the club. Therefore, if he's still getting paid, why can't he get that knee checked out. That's spin. I don't think he's an asshole, but he's definitely not the person I thought he was. Actually, most players do only get payed from April until the end of September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 as much as I enjoyed watching Maggs play there's no way the Sox could have offered him arbitration without a physical. I think it's insane that Boras is now saying a workout is not necessary, he'll just give teams paperwork. Any team that is signing him based on that (espically since Boras was the one promosing a workout) deserve any trainwreck they get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Actually, most players do only get payed from April until the end of September. Actually, they are paid March 15th to November 15th. It's the way the fiscal payroll is set up. It's also why MLB clubs run their year end compensation closings to Feb 31. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 The Sox not giving up information to the media is apples to the oranges of an employee not telling his employer about the need for surgery. That's like me failing to tell my boss I'm having hand surgery (when 90% of my job consists of me using them..). I mean.. they DID give me the benifits book with the doctors names in it.. right..?? If you said you were quiting in two weeks and couldn't work anymore, would you also have to tell your employer you were having hand surgery? Why should they care about the surgery if you wouldn't be working for them? The area I am not clear on is the fact he was out of the season, which happened to be the end of his contract period. If he was still under contract, I understand the reasoning of keeping the team involved. Since he wasn't going to be under contract I could see reasons why the Sox wouldn't want to be involved in his medical decisions. For example, if the Sox suggested a Doctor and the surgery failed, and the player could determine that the team wasn't going to make an offer anyways, would the Sox be liable in some way of sabotaging the players health? Thinking along the lines of "Hell, he's not going to be playing for us, send him to Wacko Jacko the "knee specialist" in Vienna." By staying out of it, the team seemingly would be protecting themselves. Instead of hand surgery pick other treatments. The courts have ruled that a person private medical records are private. From what a labor law attorney told me (and he has no experience in sports) the employer may test if you are capable of doing the job, but not ask about any surgerys. So as long as you can lift that 50 pound sack, they don't need to know you have a mechanical knee. I think the team was very lucky in this situation. Someone mentioned the team was the victor. Easily. I would think Maggs would be eager to work out for teams and raise his value. As it looks now, I am guessing teams are thinking of him as a DH, not an everyday OF. That cuts his market in half. Too bad Boras, you are really going to have to earn your money, and it isn't going to be the usual windfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 He was under contract until midnight last night. He should have informed his employer of anthing relating to his physical health up until that point. He didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 He was under contract until midnight last night. He should have informed his employer of anthing relating to his physical health up until that point. He didn't. I agree that would be nice. Even if it didn't prevent him from doing his job? He was already out for the season. The team agreed. Hey boss, I have a knee injury, I'm getting it taken care of. I agree 100% if he was under contract for next season. But his playing days in that contract were over. Unless his contract expressly said you must lift weights everyday, etc, I don't see where everyone wasn't aware of his ability to play. They agreed he couldn't play. How often during the season did we here the team had no idea what Frank's rehabbing was going? He's under contract and they pretty much only new what the press told them through Frank. I cannot believe the basic contract, or any players contract would allow for a soon to be former team to have a look see on a player. Why isn't the team suing if he violated his contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Tex.. I'm done with this. You can ask me the same question 534 ways.. and I'm going to answer it the same. It's my opinion that as long as he was employed by the Sox he should have informed them of his plans. Plain and simple. How you or anyone else can make excuses for the ignorant behavior in not at the very least advising them - no matter if he was done playing for the year or not - is beyond me.. but not something I have no desire to debate about for the rest of the day. As for Frank.. I doubt very highly that the Sox - Jerry specifically - didn't know how Frank was doing. Jerry is this/close to being Frank's "father". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I keep waiting for SS's big :fyou I know its coming...c'mon, don't disappoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I keep waiting for SS's big :fyou I know its coming...c'mon, don't disappoint. I feel like the 12th guy on a good basketball team. Every has to chant for him to finally come of the bench. But I always have a :fyou for Borass, just for you Addy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) Tex.. I'm done with this. You can ask me the same question 534 ways.. and I'm going to answer it the same. It's my opinion that as long as he was employed by the Sox he should have informed them of his plans. Plain and simple. How you or anyone else can make excuses for the ignorant behavior in not at the very least advising them - no matter if he was done playing for the year or not - is beyond me.. but not something I have no desire to debate about for the rest of the day. As for Frank.. I doubt very highly that the Sox - Jerry specifically - didn't know how Frank was doing. Jerry is this/close to being Frank's "father". For *this* contract The Team said he can't play, they filed paperwork with the league. The Player said he can't play The Doctors said he can't play Who is asking for a physical? Who is saying he can play during this last contract? Everyone agreed. Everyone knew what the status was. He was done for that contract. There was no dispute from the White Sox on his ability or in this case inability to perform his job. The only reason to have a physical was to prove he *could* play in 2005. Since the WS did not have him under contract for 2005, why should they be entitled to a physical? Why can't the player say, I am not interested in an offer from you, and will not take a physical? He is under no obligation to even consider an offer from any team. Using Steff's analogy, You were under contract to type until 12/31/04 and were injured and couldn't finish the contract. Your contract calls for you to be paid until 12/31/04. Your employer, yourself, and your Doctors all agree typing anymore during this contract is impossible. Would you be obligated to prove you could type after 12/31/04? For what purpose? People aren't cattle. How evasive of procedures should the player be obligated to? We want to cut open your knee and see what the Doctor did? We want you to do 500 squats? The guy wants out of Chicago. everything he has done since the last off season has pointed in that direction. Adios. Thanks for the effort, thanks for the memories, and above all, thanks for turning down that last offer. Someone who thinks he should have a physical finish this statement Mr.. Ordonez, we want you to take a physical by our Doctor to determine . . ." and have it apply to something in his current contract that wasn't already agreed to. Edited December 8, 2004 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I love it... Boras: "The doctors' statements are that Magglio is ready now and will be absolutely ready by spring training,'' Boras said. " "Boras said that Ordonez's open workout, scheduled to take place this week in conjunction with the winter meetings in Anaheim, Calif., is no longer necessary and that all teams with a legitimate interest in signing Ordonez have been given all applicable medical records. " Sooo.. which is it..? He's ready.. or will be ready in 3 more months..? And if he's so ready now... why cancel the workout session... Sorry.. but if I'm about to pay an awful lot of $$ to someone who just had TWO surgeries I want to see it run, jump, and throw first. Boras :dips*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Tex.. you got one hard friggin head... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I kind of thought Boras was maybe hoping he could scam the Sox into offering arbitration and of course they would have jumped on it. Once Boras seen the Sox didn't buy he backed off the Mags showcase at the meetings. I could be way off but that was my thought first I heard about this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) Sorry.. but if I'm about to pay an awful lot of $$ to someone who just had TWO surgeries I want to see it run, jump, and throw first. Boras :dips*** You are correct, I wouldn't either. I also wouldn't work out for a team I have no plans in signing with. Steff, maybe you feel a moral or ethical obligated to anyone who may make you an offer. I never accepted every interview, didn't expect someone to accept every interview, and never expected any information beyond what was necessary for the employee to do his or her job. In this case everyone knew the status. He cannot play. I guess he could have shown up to prove what everyone already agreed to, but why? Edited December 8, 2004 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Maybe Vienna isn't the best place to get a surgery..... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1393172,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I kind of thought Boras was maybe hoping he could scam the Sox into offering arbitration and of course they would have jumped on it. Once Boras seen the Sox didn't buy he backed off the Mags showcase at the meetings. I could be way off but that was my thought first I heard about this.... That's the point everyone seems to be missing/ignoring. I'm starting to believe that if the Sox offered arbitration, Maggs would have jumped on it. Then the Sox might be stuck with an $11 million+ contract for a player that may not be 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) That's the point everyone seems to be missing/ignoring. I'm starting to believe that if the Sox offered arbitration, Maggs would have jumped on it. Then the Sox might be stuck with an $11 million+ contract for a player that may not be 100%. Which is why I say we are very lucky he didn't accepted the last offer. I wonder if in arbitration the arbitor could take into account the knee surgeries and maybe we could have had him for the lesser number? Any team that makes him an offer better be very careful. I'd want clauses as to number of games played, games played in the OF, and as incentive laden as I could get. If I was a talentless team, I'd stay away. Someone like the Yankees who could absorb a mistake, might take a chance. Not a good fit for a team trying to make the playoffs twice in the same decade. Edited December 8, 2004 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Which is why I say we are very lucky he didn't accepted the last offer. I wonder if in arbitration the abritor could take into account the knee surgeries and maybe we could have had him for the lesser number? Any team that makes him an offer better be very careful. I'd want clasues as to number of games played, games played in the OF, and as incentive ladden as I could get. If I was a talentless team, I'd stay away. Someone like the Yankees who could absorb a mistake, might take a chance. Not a good fit for a team trying to make the playoffs twice in the same decade. The biggest pay drop an arbitor can award is 20%. Maggs couldn't have made less than $11.2 million in aribitration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Remember that aribtration is not a negotiation. IF we go in and offer 7.5, and team Boras offers 13, The arbitrator has to take one of those two figures. It is a system that needs to be overhauled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 The more I look at this the more I am thinking it was a great move for the Sox to walk away. You can see something is really fishy with how Boras and Mags are working things..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 The biggest pay drop an arbitor can award is 20%. Maggs couldn't have made less than $11.2 million in aribitration. Not a good gamble with anything less than a $150 million payroll. With the current plans to not work out, I see a low base and a lot of incentives. You know teams are going to be using this example for a long time about not accepting an offer. I wonder if he has an umbrella career ending insurance policy? Some protection that allowed him to take a lesser gamble. This looks like the ultimate loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Which is why I say we are very lucky he didn't accepted the last offer. I wonder if in arbitration the arbitor could take into account the knee surgeries and maybe we could have had him for the lesser number? Any team that makes him an offer better be very careful. I'd want clauses as to number of games played, games played in the OF, and as incentive laden as I could get. If I was a talentless team, I'd stay away. Someone like the Yankees who could absorb a mistake, might take a chance. Not a good fit for a team trying to make the playoffs twice in the same decade. Which is exactly why the Sox doctors should have been allowed to examine him. If he checked out as 100% and would be able to put up his usual numbers, then the Sox could have offered arbitration, he would have gotten somewhere between 11 - 14 million and everyone would be happy. Or he would have declined it and they would have at least been able to keep the draft picks they lost. The fact that they didn't even offer it makes me think they have doubts that he's 100%. Right now the only people that know that for sure are Maggs and Borass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Don't think this has been posted yet, from Rotoworld, Boras is cancelling the workout he promised, b/c it's "no longer necessary" -- now THAT'S a lame argument: Magglio Ordonez is healthy now, contends agent Scott Boras, but an open workout scheduled for the winter meetings has been cancelled. Boras said the workout is no longer necessary and that all teams with a legitimate interest in signing Ordonez have been given all applicable medical records. "The doctors' statements are that Magglio is ready now and will be absolutely ready by spring training," Boras said. The more Boras talks, the riskier of a signing Ordonez appears to be. Dec. 8 - 2:12 pm et Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Which is exactly why the Sox doctors should have been allowed to examine him. If he checked out as 100% and would be able to put up his usual numbers, then the Sox could have offered arbitration, he would have gotten somewhere between 11 - 14 million and everyone would be happy. Or he would have declined it and they would have at least been able to keep the draft picks they lost. The fact that they didn't even offer it makes me think they have doubts that he's 100%. Right now the only people that know that for sure are Maggs and Borass. Not everyone would be happy. We never can have everyone happy $11 million is too much to pay one player is some people's minds. Based on a $70 Mil Payroll. It seems to me that the players union has the upper hand in this. I cannot believe a player's ability to refuse is because he felt like it. I assume that was what was negotiated. I also find it hard that the owners allowed such a (from how this looks) messed up system. I would also assume the team could have placed a clause involving health into their offer. If that isn't the case, then this is even more messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I like Kenny's approach right now. Magglio was very good player for the White Sox and we wish him well .... end of story. No more arguing about who said what and when. Time for the SOX to just STFU and move on ..... And no, Dick Allen, if the don't refute Boras's statement it does not mean they were lying. It means they're done with the whole mess. And rightfully so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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