CWSGuy406 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I have another question to the backers of this trade: What if we don't get the starter we eyed on the FA market? I'm assuming the two guys we're looking at right now are Perez and Clement -- well, if we only have six million to spend, what if we're not able to land either of them? Where do we go from there? You cannot tell me that this team is better suited with Pods + Vizcaino rather than having Lee. Yuck... Yuck... Yuck... :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I have another question to the backers of this trade: What if we don't get the starter we eyed on the FA market? I'm assuming the two guys we're looking at right now are Perez and Clement -- well, if we only have six million to spend, what if we're not able to land either of them? Where do we go from there? You cannot tell me that this team is better suited with Pods + Vizcaino rather than having Lee. Yuck... Yuck... Yuck... :puke Well I would have assumed we had money before, and this just adds to it. I see more than just $6 mil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Well I would have assumed we had money before, and this just adds to it. I see more than just $6 mil. We should have nine to ten to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I have another question to the backers of this trade: What if we don't get the starter we eyed on the FA market? I'm assuming the two guys we're looking at right now are Perez and Clement -- well, if we only have six million to spend, what if we're not able to land either of them? Where do we go from there? You cannot tell me that this team is better suited with Pods + Vizcaino rather than having Lee. Yuck... Yuck... Yuck... :puke I'm not backing it or complaining about it yet, I'm waiting to see what kenny does with the money. If he doesn't get another starter then this deal does suck, I will however say that if Pods returns back to his 03 form then yes the sox are better off with Pods and Vizcaino over caballo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 My thinking had been Lee has the best chance of putting up Magg-like numbers. If we could replace Lee's numbers, which is easier than Maggs, we would be even. Now I see an offense taking a couple steps back. But it is only December and I truly believe you have to judge the off season in it's entirety, not trade by trade, release by release, FA signing by FA signing. When the team leaves spring training we can fully evaluate all the trades. If we leave with a third place team, a prayer, and a few million in the bank, no one will be braving those cold early season games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 and on a note of the utmost seriousness I WANT A f***ING CIGARETTE! its been over 60 hours and im dying here!!!!Mauhauhauhauha i love satin.. just give me a cig and ill love you satin... GOD DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'm not backing it or complaining about it yet, I'm waiting to see what kenny does with the money. If he doesn't get another starter then this deal does suck, I will however say that if Pods returns back to his 03 form then yes the sox are better off with Pods and Vizcaino over caballo. But see -- that's what I don't get. You're waiting to judge this deal on what Kenny does with the money... Take it as it is. The trade is, Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik (sp?) and Luis Vizcaino, with, a PTBNL coming our way (Bruce Levine reported it would be an impact player, but others have reported that it will be a minor leaguer). That's the trade -- if you're judging it based on what they'll do with the money, than your accepting the fact that it's a salary dump -- which is what I believe it is. I'm not gonna go around b****ing about this deal, and annoy the hell out of everyone (like I don't already ), but Kenny just got a lot more unpopular with me with this deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 But see -- that's what I don't get. You're waiting to judge this deal on what Kenny does with the money... Take it as it is. The trade is, Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik (sp?) and Luis Vizcaino, with, a PTBNL coming our way (Bruce Levine reported it would be an impact player, but others have reported that it will be a minor leaguer). That's the trade -- if you're judging it based on what they'll do with the money, than your accepting the fact that it's a salary dump -- which is what I believe it is. I'm not gonna go around b****ing about this deal, and annoy the hell out of everyone (like I don't already ), but Kenny just got a lot more unpopular with me with this deal. But freeing up money is part of the deal. I don't think it's a salary dump cause Kenny got a player he wanted and I'm sure this is a guy Ozzie really wanted. We also now have one of the best bullpens in baseball, the pen is going to be so deep and I know you believe(as do I) that's one of the most important thing for a contending baseball team with not a ton of resources to do. Trust me, I understand where you're coming from but I think you have to look at what kenny does also, after all is said and done he might have had something else that was done if this trade went through to free up money, we just don't know and that's why I think we have to wait for the rest of the offseason to play itself out, jmo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 IMHO, I gotta believe that they, at the very least, could have gotten Jerry Hairston and Jorge Julio from Baltimore, and that could have been the salary dump. Maybe there's more to this than meets the eye. Maybe they trade Konerko, too, and add a power bat via free agency, along with signing a FA starting pitcher. Who the f*** knows... But as of right now -- this trade -- looking at it right now, it's a salary dump. And a stupid one at that. You've got to be kidding me that the best you could get for Carlos F'n Lee is an up-and-down leadoff man and a quality reliever. That PTBN better be a pretty damn good player, not just some scrap from the bottom of the barrell. Looking at this trade now... I hate it. You know the saying, "You don't know how much you really miss something until it's gone"? Well, I think that's the way it's gonna be with Lee. I really believe he is very, very close to becoming a superstar, which would have been a bargain under ten million for the next two seasons. Boy, was it fun watching Carlos grow up from the player who couldn't play a lick in LF to becoming our best, most well rounded player on the team. I'm definitely gonna miss him... I agree with everything you've said. One thing, though -- Hairston made about a million and a half last season, and Julio's up for arbitration, so he'll be making much more than his salary last season (which is the only reason for the O's to trade him). You wouldn't get as much salary relief here. BUT -- I still think you don't dump Carlos for salary space, and that this deal was lopsided. If the Sox wanted to dump salary, my guess is that there's some Konerko-Orioles match that would have been better. I'm not so sure this is a salary dump in KW's mind. Perhaps he thinks speed is this important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 how about you take that 6+million you gain kenny... and you do one GREAT thing with it.... give it all to me =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASHWOUND Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Yikes...I think after reading this thread I may have to report some of you to the suicide prevention hotline.. The Brewers prob did come out a bit better in the deal getting a solid #3,4 hitter, but you gotta take into account the salary we're saving and might be used to sign Clement or somebody..in that case it's a great deal.. and lets face it, we weren't a pillar of dominance with Lee on the team..Kenny is right..maybe a change is in order.. Calm down people..Lets see what are final team is gonna look like after all signings are final and judge..people giving up on the season already is stupid....and giving up someone who has been on our team for what 5 seasons..and how many div-titles have we won in that span??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Yikes...I think after reading this thread I may have to report some of you to the suicide prevention hotline.. The Brewers prob did come out a bit better in the deal getting a solid #3,4 hitter, but you gotta take into account the salary we're saving and might be used to sign Clement or somebody..in that case it's a great deal.. and lets face it, we weren't a pillar of dominance with Lee on the team..Kenny is right..maybe a change is in order.. Calm down people..Lets see what are final team is gonna look like after all signings are final and judge..people giving up on the season already is stupid....and giving up someone who has been on our team for what 5 seasons..and how many div-titles have we won in that span??? I'll never understand this logic, 'We haven't won with Carlos so how great can he be.' So if a team doesn't win more than 1 division title in 5 years, we should completely turn over the roster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'll never understand this logic, 'We haven't won with Carlos so how great can he be.' So if a team doesn't win more than 1 division title in 5 years, we should completely turn over the roster? I wouldn't say it's been Lee's fault at all, it would be very unfair and unjust to make him the scapegoat for the past few seasons. The guy has been our most consistent hitter over the past 2 seasons, and has improved in the field significantly as well. He'll be missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 The latest article by Phil Rogers on chicagosports.com says we might go after a starting pitcher with the $6 million saved, but he didnt name any names. I would have been more content if he said something along the lines of the Sox were targeted a particular name or names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Everytime a trade comes up or rumors start everyone starts a pissing party. Unless the guy is God someone would get pissed. God is probably overpayed would be the comment. I remember comming out here during the games and on the whitesoxcentral chat and would see the same comments. People loved how Arow would play, wished more of the team would play like that and how our team only goes for homers. Corpseball is the term that was thrown around. Reading time and time again how they cant believe how team members were obviously trying to hit home runs in contact situations with the game on the line. How we hit so many home runs without anyone on base. We must lead the league in solo home runs, If I see another home run swing on 0-2 I will puke. Does everyone remember these comments. We have such short term memories. We all like the idea of the big bopper, the home run hitter. But it doesnt work. Pitching wins, especially in the playoffs(that we havent gotten to in a few years mind you). We have sat and watched time and time again on how the weak hitting MInny Twins without power would kick our asses every year after August. Why because they do the little things. We need more of that on our team. That is why these moves are being made. Yes they save us money. Which I am sure makes JR happy. But this team needed to be blown up and rebuilt around another philosophy. And it was a bit harder than just changing coaches or batting instructors. How many times did we have to read from Von Joshua or even Ozzie about how they couldnt change the mentality of our hitters for going for the fences. Maybe this will change their thought processes. If Carlos Lee is not untouchable maybe it will change some of our hitters who feel that they can ignore the coaching staff and try to park one so they can see fireworks instead of making contact and driving in the run. Maybe this will change us into more of a team instead of a few power hitters who put up impressive stats. And before you discount the impact of pod, remember how many of you wanted this guy and that guy because the would steal on us last year like crazy. Brian Roberts stole on us, we should trade for him was the call after we played the Orioles last year. If he gets some more patience at the plate and gets on more he will be a good leadoff. Remember for all you how Willie has a higher OBP people, Willie would take a 2 foot lead with the green light from Ozzie to steal at will. Pod has the knack to swipe a base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Kenny has more deals on tap. No doubt about it in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 We still got plenty of pop in Konerko, Thomas, Dye and Rowand to drive in Pods and Urine. I'm sure it was unintentional but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASHWOUND Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'll never understand this logic, 'We haven't won with Carlos so how great can he be.' So if a team doesn't win more than 1 division title in 5 years, we should completely turn over the roster? Obviously the reason we didn't win wasn't cause of lee, but the make-up of our team.power right handed hitters with no speed..that had to be changed cause it wasn't working..can't argue withat that, only on players we recieved for him.. but we didn need to change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 hi8us relax. this trade isnt terribble.....unless they dont get a starter. if they do then this trade is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 SSI71, in response to your reply: I think a lot of you view as a 'home-run hitter', and that really isn't true. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Carlos Lee was the most complete player on this team. No doubt about it. He's shown consistency in his batting average (.300+ Average both at home and away), he's shown a consistent OBP (IIRC, it's always in the .340-.360 range, which is very good for a power hitter), he's always been a big RBI guy (he's a lock to knock in 90 every year, more like 110-120), and, as been mentioned, he completes this all with his power (30+ homers). People are saying we're going to get better defensively, but I don't think that's true. Carlos Lee played one hell of a LF for us last year, and he has the LF dimensions known inside out, at this point. He knows how far back he's got when he's tracking a deep fly ball, he plays balls that go into the corner (whether on the ground or in the air) almost perfectly, and he's gotten much better on his routes to the ball. His arm has also improved to the point where it's at least somewhat respectable, a far stride from when he could barely three-hop it to the second baseman... EDIT: Gashwound, after seeing your posts, I put the same reply to you. Carlos Lee simply isn't a power righty who K's a lot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 One more thing (last post in this thread tonight, I promise ): While it's all nice and good to build a team around pitching and defense, isn't it kind of stupid to build a team built on pitching and defense when you play in the second biggest hitters haven in the major leagues? God, I really hope they move the fences back/move home plate back before the '06 season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 One more thing (last post in this thread tonight, I promise ): While it's all nice and good to build a team around pitching and defense, isn't it kind of stupid to build a team built on pitching and defense when you play in the second biggest hitters haven in the major leagues? God, I really hope they move the fences back/move home plate back before the '06 season... No, this offense has been to damn inconsistant for to long, we need to get away from the long ball(I'm not saying this was the reason to get rid of carlos) I'm tired of living and dying by the homerun, I'm happy kenny is getting away from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 SSI71, in response to your reply: I think a lot of you view as a 'home-run hitter', and that really isn't true. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Carlos Lee was the most complete player on this team. No doubt about it. He's shown consistency in his batting average (.300+ Average both at home and away), he's shown a consistent OBP (IIRC, it's always in the .340-.360 range, which is very good for a power hitter), he's always been a big RBI guy (he's a lock to knock in 90 every year, more like 110-120), and, as been mentioned, he completes this all with his power (30+ homers). People are saying we're going to get better defensively, but I don't think that's true. Carlos Lee played one hell of a LF for us last year, and he has the LF dimensions known inside out, at this point. He knows how far back he's got when he's tracking a deep fly ball, he plays balls that go into the corner (whether on the ground or in the air) almost perfectly, and he's gotten much better on his routes to the ball. His arm has also improved to the point where it's at least somewhat respectable, a far stride from when he could barely three-hop it to the second baseman... EDIT: Gashwound, after seeing your posts, I put the same reply to you. Carlos Lee simply isn't a power righty who K's a lot... He had some pretty good statistical numbers. But I will say that the Carlos Lee that was hitting line drives and hitting to right field was a very dangerous player. This is the player we saw during the hitting streak. Then he with the help of Greg Walker decided to change his approach to a power centric hitting approach. Flash and Jeckle can remember me posting stuff on this during the games in chat. His approach to the plate changed during the most in opportune time during the first few weeks of August. He started pulling the ball for power. His power numbers went up, but so did his strike outs and the amount of men he left on in scoring position. Between his home run cuts and valentins glove that Minny series could of been won and what tone would that of set. I think Carlos Lee does have all of the natural abililties, but I think he is more of a dangerous hitter when he doesnt pull as much and uses his line drive swing. He has enough power still to hit 25-35 home runs with his stature. But I think with Maggs and Thomas gone he put it on himself to hit home runs. At the end of the season Carlos put it all together. He was hitting to right with power and was pulling the inside pitch in. But how many people remember how that any pitcher could own the sox last year by painting the outside corner. As long as you painted the outside corner about 90 percent of the time you could own this team. Why because we got into the pull crazy home run mode. We need to change this methodology. We need our hitters to use the entire field. Instead of trying to park pitches in the stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASHWOUND Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 SSI71, in response to your reply: I think a lot of you view as a 'home-run hitter', and that really isn't true. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Carlos Lee was the most complete player on this team. No doubt about it. He's shown consistency in his batting average (.300+ Average both at home and away), he's shown a consistent OBP (IIRC, it's always in the .340-.360 range, which is very good for a power hitter), he's always been a big RBI guy (he's a lock to knock in 90 every year, more like 110-120), and, as been mentioned, he completes this all with his power (30+ homers). People are saying we're going to get better defensively, but I don't think that's true. Carlos Lee played one hell of a LF for us last year, and he has the LF dimensions known inside out, at this point. He knows how far back he's got when he's tracking a deep fly ball, he plays balls that go into the corner (whether on the ground or in the air) almost perfectly, and he's gotten much better on his routes to the ball. His arm has also improved to the point where it's at least somewhat respectable, a far stride from when he could barely three-hop it to the second baseman... EDIT: Gashwound, after seeing your posts, I put the same reply to you. Carlos Lee simply isn't a power righty who K's a lot... I agree, didn't say Lee was just a power hitter who k's alot..he's not..But that's who the Brewers wanted, I'm sure Kenny offered either Konerko or Lee and I would have been more with the trade if it was konerko rather than Lee..but one of the had to be sacrifised to sort of move away to the big power right hand hitters..Whatcha gonna do.. Lee was a great player..prob are best consistent hitter in the line-up.. Hmm, maybe it was a bad trade thinking about it Ehh, anyway..what's done is done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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