Rate the Trade

[Tjones]

KW really likes Perez remember we almost got him for konerko last offseason

[Fotop]

Right, I knew that...the question was a bit more rhetorical as I was trying to point out how good of a basestealer Podsednik is. I'm not sure what his success rate was, but I assume it's one of the top in the league.

 

To me, this looks like trading a strength to turn a weakness into a strength (if you can follow that). This team has plenty of power, especially for USCF, and by getting Podsednik we immediately improve the baserunning of a historically station to station team.

 

I think the reactions of most that don't like this deal are warranted, but people are forgetting the value of the SB. I know all of you statheads/moneyball disciplines are gonna bash me for praising the SB, believe me I follow the numbers as well, but moneyball wasn't just about OBP iZ AWESomE!!11

 

The overarching theme of the "moneyball" concept is to find inefficencies within the market and expose them. Am I saying that stolen bases are undervalued? Not necessarily, but what I am saying is that everyone is keen on OBP,SLG,OPS, etc. these days so mid-market teams such as the Sox need to use that to their advantage. This ultimately means dealing guys like CLee that the stat people covet.

 

Do I think we got good value for CLee though? Yes if you consider the 6million dollar savings, maybe if you don't. I just get this feeling that now that he's gone everyone is making CLee out to some kind of superstar...which he wasn't.

[qwerty]

Do I think we got good value for CLee though? Yes if you consider the 6million dollar savings, maybe if you don't.  I just get this feeling that now that he's gone everyone is making CLee out to some kind of superstar...which he wasn't.

Superstar now? No. Good chance of becoming one of the top 10-15 hitters in baseball though.

[CanOfCorn]

Right, I knew that...the question was a bit more rhetorical as I was trying to point out how good of a basestealer Podsednik is. I'm not sure what his success rate was, but I assume it's one of the top in the league.

 

To me, this looks like trading a strength to turn a weakness into a strength (if you can follow that). This team has plenty of power, especially for USCF, and by getting Podsednik we immediately improve the baserunning of a historically station to station team.

 

I think the reactions of most that don't like this deal are warranted, but people are forgetting the value of the SB. I know all of you statheads/moneyball disciplines are gonna bash me for praising the SB, believe me I follow the numbers as well, but moneyball wasn't just about OBP iZ AWESomE!!11

 

The overarching theme of the "moneyball" concept is to find inefficencies within the market and expose them. Am I saying that stolen bases are undervalued? Not necessarily, but what I am saying is that everyone is keen on OBP,SLG,OPS, etc. these days so mid-market teams such as the Sox need to use that to their advantage. This ultimately means dealing guys like CLee that the stat people covet.

 

Do I think we got good value for CLee though? Yes if you consider the 6million dollar savings, maybe if you don't.  I just get this feeling that now that he's gone everyone is making CLee out to some kind of superstar...which he wasn't.

No, he wasn't, but he is only 28 and he has shown improvement at the plate and in the field over the last couple of years. It's hard to give away a player like that. I didn't like the trade at first, but after reading these posts...I'll be happy if they use the saved money wisely.

[Chisoxfn]

This is a long term move too cause I'm pretty sure they have the rights to Pod and Luis for a few more years. Pod for longer. And if the PTBNL is Ginter or a minor leaguer they'll have his rights for a long time as well.

 

Now sign Odalis Perez...PLEASE KENNY

[Fotop]

Seriously though, you can't talk that much more about potential with CLee for the fact that he IS 28. In some schools of thought, a player's best season occurs when they are 27. Lee will never have good plate discipline, he shows flashes of it, but in the end he resorts to the swing as hard as you can at the first pitch school of thought. Granted, the numbers CLee put last year were impressive and I hate to see him go but you have to give something to get something.

 

With Anderson and Sweeney still in our minors I think this is the type of risk we take at this point. We strengthen our bullpen and the top of our order for the cost of a middle of the order hitter. My only concern is this deal shows how much faith we have in Rowand...if he doesn't perform our Outfield could have gone from one of the strongest in the AL to mediocre in one season.

[witesoxfan]

If the PTBNL is Ginter, my vote for this trade will have gone from indifferent to favoring the deal.

 

Ginter's OPS last year was .812. Lee's was .891. Ginter plays 2B...a much more difficult position to get production like that out of(given, he is not good defensively). Lee plays LF, where 25 homer, 80 RBI, .750-.800 OPS guys are a dime a dozen. That is not a wash...but Ginter is better then a lot of people think.

 

You add in the fact that our bullpen is now one of the strong points of our team, compared to one of the weak points...one of Vizcaino and Hermanson will be setting up(I view Vizcaino as the setup guy, personally), with Politte as a middle reliever too, along with Marte and Shingo? Add in the fact that Cotts and/or Adkins will be back and they will have improved as well, and Diaz and Munoz were decent out of the pen last year too down the stretch...we are like 8 or 9 guys deep, including 5 good ones, in the pen.

 

This is not mentioning the focal point of the trade, who with a .26-.270 average, will put up a .340-.350 OBP, and will steal like a million bases for us.

 

And to top it off, we SAVE money.

 

I do not see how we do not win this trade, quite honestly...especially if Ginter is coming to Chicago too, like initially reported.

[greg775]

I don't think players like Carlos are a dime a dozen like

a couple people indicated on here.

I happen to think the guy was a big time producer.

 

I agree with this post:

YOU DON'T TRADE A 26-YEAR OLD RUN PRODUCER WHO CONTINUES TO IMPROVE FOR A 28-YEAR-OLD JOURNEYMAN WHO HAS HAD ONE DECENT YEAR IN HIS CAREER.

 

KENNY WILLIAMS IS THE VILLAGE IDIOT AND EVERYBODY IN BASEBALL KNOWS IT

[qwerty]

If the PTBNL is Ginter, my vote for this trade will have gone from indifferent to favoring the deal.

 

Ginter's OPS last year was .812.  Lee's was .891.  Ginter plays 2B...a much more difficult position to get production like that out of(given, he is not good defensively).  Lee plays LF, where 25 homer, 80 RBI, .750-.800 OPS guys are a dime a dozen.  That is not a wash...but Ginter is better then a lot of people think.

 

You add in the fact that our bullpen is now one of the strong points of our team, compared to one of the weak points...one of Vizcaino and Hermanson will be setting up(I view Vizcaino as the setup guy, personally), with Politte as a middle reliever too, along with Marte and Shingo?  Add in the fact that Cotts and/or Adkins will be back and they will have improved as well, and Diaz and Munoz were decent out of the pen last year too down the stretch...we are like 8 or 9 guys deep, including 5 good ones, in the pen.

 

This is not mentioning the focal point of the trade, who with a .26-.270 average, will put up a .340-.350 OBP, and will steal like a million bases for us.

 

And to top it off, we SAVE money.

 

I do not see how we do not win this trade, quite honestly...especially if Ginter is coming to Chicago too, like initially reported.

I will change my opinion from fleeced to favoring the deal if ginetr is in the deal. But ginter will not be in the deal, so it better be one of their top 10 prospects.

[danman31]

I'm just so happy we got rid of the real village idiot, Carlos Lee. Everyone here overrated Lee. The thought of him being dealt for Sheets was laughable. Either way a legit top of the order type player (assuming he can hit) is awesome. 70 stolen bases, s***. I'm pretty gitty about this deal and if we land Ginter, holy f***.

 

[danman31]

I will change my opinion from fleeced to favoring the deal if ginetr is in the deal. But ginter will not be in the deal, so it better be one of their top 10 prospects.

That would be nice, they have a sweet system.

[Fotop]

Seriously though, what about CLee this year is not Paul Konerko two years ago? I know most of you wanted to get rid of Konerko when he was struglling because of his "awful" contract. CLee basically got the same contract, so say he struggles...you can't trade him because of the money committed to him.

 

The financial flexibility this trade gives us for the future is outstanding because we're not on the hook for the next few year's of Lee's contract and have two quality inexpensive players in his place. Addition by subtraction here people.

[witesoxfan]

I don't think players like Carlos are a dime a dozen like

a couple people indicated on here.

I happen to think the guy was a big time producer.

 

I agree with this post:

YOU DON'T TRADE A 26-YEAR OLD RUN PRODUCER WHO CONTINUES TO IMPROVE FOR A 28-YEAR-OLD JOURNEYMAN WHO HAS HAD ONE DECENT YEAR IN HIS CAREER.

 

KENNY WILLIAMS IS THE VILLAGE IDIOT AND EVERYBODY IN BASEBALL KNOWS IT

57 players hit 25 homers, and 89 hit 20...76 players drove in 80 runs.

 

Those are not very good stats for determining a player...but it helps to paint a clearer picture.

 

Consider that we have Everett on the bench, for $4 mill, who could start in LF for us and hit .275 25 85 .800 for us easily...maybe even better at USCF.

 

To me...Ginter does not make or break the deal. Ginter takes this deal from being a wash to being a rapage by KW.

[aboz56]

One thing to note is that Podsednik struck out over 100 times last season.

 

That is way too much for a leadoff hitter.

 

And his OBP is totally awful.

[witesoxfan]

Seriously though, what about CLee this year is not Paul Konerko two years ago? I know most of you wanted to get rid of Konerko when he was struglling because of his "awful" contract. CLee basically got the same contract, so say he struggles...you can't trade him because of the money committed to him.

 

The financial flexibility this trade gives us for the future is outstanding because we're not on the hook for the next few year's of Lee's contract and have two quality inexpensive players in his place. Addition by subtraction here people.

Caballo is only guaranteed 2005. 2006 is an option...either $8.5 mill or a $1 mill buyout.

[witesoxfan]

One thing to note is that Podsednik struck out over 100 times last season.

 

That is way too much for a leadoff hitter.

 

And his OBP is totally awful.

K's mean very little for any spot of the order, except maybe the #2 spot where getting a guy from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd is important.

 

What is important is his OBP and, while not necessary, SBs help too.

 

I do not think anyone is expecting Pods to put up the .380 OBP he put up in 2003...but he will be better then the .314 he put up this year too. I expect him to be somewhere in the middle...probably between .335-.350, and while that could be better, for about $500K-1 mill, it is worth it.

[Y2HH]

Looking at this trade while keeping things over the past few years in prespective, I believe this was a GREAT trade.

 

First, the White Sox, over the past few years, have had too much $ wound up in too few players (Mags, Koch, Valentine, Lee, Konerko), and where did it get us? A ton of HR's and a ton of fireworks, but other than that...what did it get us other than socked in the mouth by what should have been an inferior team in the Twinkees.

 

Looking forward to 2005, we have dispersed cash around the organization, rather than winding it up in just a few players. We have more speed, more defense and better baserunning, I have to say, after reviewing the last few years, I'm happy we didn't go the same power hitting route. We also have pitchers locked in longer team deals.

 

The coach of the 1980 Olympic hockey team had a good stance on recruiting players. "I'm not looking for the best players, I'm looking for the right players."

 

Oh, lets not forget, the numbers Lee put up in Chicago...needless to say, he won't be putting up in Milwalkee...do you honestly think Uribe has that kind of power?! That was Comiskey inflated stats. We still have power with Frank/Konerko/Rowand, not to mention Crede and a few others, so I'm not worried about the long ball...but at least now, with Pods on base, opposing pitchers will have something to worry about other than throwing K's.

 

We have a better pen.

 

Oh...and we have 6 million reasons we can sign a great starter now, solidifying our staff.

 

I could probably go on and on making point after point here about why this trade was good, but everyone has pretty much covered this.

 

 

-y2

[danman31]

One thing to note is that Podsednik struck out over 100 times last season.

 

That is way too much for a leadoff hitter.

 

And his OBP is totally awful.

I think everyone agrees that, other than his 70 steals, his 2004 season completely blew. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolly However, he struck out 95 times in 2003, which may be a cause for concern.

[Guest JimH]

But ginter will not be in the deal

Note that it says "player to be named" and not "player to be named later".

 

I can't see how you can state with such conviction Ginter won't be in the deal.

 

I'm not saying he will, but two media outlets have said it will be a major league player ... which is cause enough to sit back and wait vs. being so definitive about Ginter not being in the deal.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

I can’t punch the ballot on your poll.  I don’t really fit any of the choices.  I’m happy with the trade.  Players like Lee are a dime a dozen anymore.  We got some speed, and are starting to move away from the homerun wagon that hasn’t worked the past few years in Chicago.  Pods gives us some speed, a decent leadoff guy, and a threat on the basepaths.  I’m okay with this right now; I just want to see us get a solid guy to put into the rotation w/ the extra cash.

We got totally fleeced...

I used to defend KW but he really should of been fired the moment he proposed this.

Anyone who has paid attention to his minor league career at all know he is a total joke. Now it's back to praying Escobar becomes a stud because that black hole isn't going to fix itself.

Some of you need to accept SPOD was a fluke and nothing more.

He's too old and you should look at his minor leauge numbers. I bet he has an OBP below .300 :puke

[Y2HH]

Pods has a tendency to swing at high fastballs on 0-2 counts, he's done this the past few years...and this is nothing a good hitting coach cannot get rid of...teach him how to lay off that high fastball, and his K total will drop. We claim to have a great hitting coach...Walker was a left handed bat...so is Pods...maybe he can learn a thing or two. I think he can.

 

Stop looking at this dead as it appears at this very moment and wait...do me a favor and look at this way, maybe it will help your prespective on this deal:

 

If we sign a starting pitcher with the money saved...

 

We then traded Carlos Lee for Pods, Viz, PTBNL, and a starting pitcher.

 

FOUR players for the price of ONE.

 

Anyone who thinks this is a bad deal when all is said and done needs their head examined by the Cubs team doctors...I'm sure they tell you everythings fine.

 

-y2

[santo=dorf]

By trading Carlos Lee, KW:

Saved $6 million that can be used on a starter (Odalis please)

Picked up a true base stealing threat

Added another solid arm to the pen

Got a leadoff hitter.

 

At first I wasn't for trading Scotty, but there looks to be a lot of upside to this trade.

[qwerty]

Note that it says "player to be named" and not "player to be named later".

 

I can't see how you can state with such conviction Ginter won't be in the deal.

 

I'm not saying he will, but two media outlets have said it will be a major league player ... which is cause enough to sit back and wait vs. being so definitive about Ginter not being in the deal.

I have heard ''player to be named later'' over 100 times on the radio. I am not making it up. If it wasn't they would have just named him already.

[fathom]

The rumor is that the PTBNL is Mitch Stetter, a 23 yr old lefty reliever who someone said was about the 42nd best propsect on Milwaukee. Also, if KW doesnt use the money saved in this deal to improve the team, I will not attend a single Sox game this year. I know people could care less what I do, but there's no way I will financially support a team that would do business like this.

[striker]

I hate to see a good player go but let's face it, Lee was a big part of our 2nd place tradition over the years. I am all for change. We may question KW moves but he wants to see a winning team out there as much as we do.

 

I wouldn't be suprised if Kornerko was dealt too. I, like the rest of you, hope for a stud pitcher. If Ginter was at all a part of these deal then maybe we turn around and send him to Oakland with Garland for Hudson. Just a thought.