GreenSox Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I haven't read all the "fine print" of this proposed trade, but most of this is speculation anyway. My basic premise that FLA wants more of a proven SP, who could be locked up for a few yrs, like Vazquez, still holds. They were willing to pay Pavano $8 mill a yr for 3 yrs, why not spend it on Vazquez? The Sox getting a younger cheaper guy with a lot of upside [with some risks] makes sense in some respect over getting Vazquez, a high paid guy for 3 more yrs who's still a risk. Isn't Burnett's contract about up? No way is Fla taking vasquez without the yanks picking up some of that deal. the trade effectively says that Vasquez + Garland + Kotsay = Burnett. I can't see that at all; cut the marlins out, take vasquez and keep Garland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Burnett has pitched only 140 innings over the last 2 seasons. Anyone know his health status? I don't think I would like that trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Burnett has pitched only 140 innings over the last 2 seasons. Anyone know his health status? I don't think I would like that trade. He had Tommy John surgery before last season - injured in 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 He should be a stud this year IMO..It takes about 1.5 year to fully recover, and he shown flashes of it during the stretch last year. f*** RJ AnD VAQUEZ Get me HUdson and AJ Talk about a Rotation Hudson Marky B Garcia AJ Contreas When your Number 4 can strike out 150-175 hitters a year..you might have a damn good staff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Isn't Burnett's contract about up? No way is Fla taking vasquez without the yanks picking up some of that deal. the trade effectively says that Vasquez + Garland + Kotsay = Burnett. I can't see that at all; cut the marlins out, take vasquez and keep Garland I'm not sure what you're arguing. I've just said FLA wants stability from a SP.[they've lost Pavano, Penny via trade, Beckett and Burnett have been hurt, they signed Leiter to a 1 yr deal]. I'm sure FLA would want NY to give some of Vazquez's salary. But the Yanks nor the Marlins prob. want Garland. I'm not sure how the Sox get Vazquez in this deal w/ NY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'm not sure what you're arguing. I've just said FLA wants stability from a SP.[they've lost Pavano, Penny via trade, Beckett and Burnett have been hurt, they signed Leiter to a 1 yr deal]. I'm sure FLA would want NY to give some of Vazquez's salary. But the Yanks nor the Marlins prob. want Garland. I'm not sure how the Sox get Vazquez in this deal w/ NY. My point is the ONLY player the Marlins bring to the table is going to the White Sox (if we're talking about the same deal - that 4 way deal). So we could cut them out if we want because they aren't giving the other parties anything. Which deal is better for us? Vasquez and Kotsay plus cash for Konerko and Garland OR Burnett for Konerko and Garland (and I think Burnett is unsigned past this year - is that right)? Either way, Arizona gets Konerko and Garland, NY gets Johnson but loses Vasquez and Kotsay. So we're the fulcrum here - do we benefit with Fla in the deal? Arizona and NY aren't affected either way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 My point is the ONLY player the Marlins bring to the table is going to the White Sox (if we're talking about the same deal - that 4 way deal). So we could cut them out if we want because they aren't giving the other parties anything. Which deal is better for us? Vasquez and Kotsay plus cash for Konerko and Garland OR Burnett for Konerko and Garland (and I think Burnett is unsigned past this year - is that right)? Either way, Arizona gets Konerko and Garland, NY gets Johnson but loses Vasquez and Kotsay. So we're the fulcrum here - do we benefit with Fla in the deal? Arizona and NY aren't affected either way Karsay [not Kotsay] would go to FLA, which supposedly wants Vazquez. Burnett would be good for the sox [ala Tim Hudson, cheap, arb. eligible?]. Would Pk and Jon be too much for him? Maybe. All this is talk. who knows what will happen. I'll just wait for the press release Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 If the Sox can swing Konerko's salary and Garland's "potential" in a trade of such suitors and magnitude, one would think KW would also squeeze out at least a decent prospect and/or another bullpen arm, and not just Burnett. Either way, hella good things to be done w/ all of that salary they would potentially have opened up. That's a good looking little man in your Avatar. You do good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 My point is the ONLY player the Marlins bring to the table is going to the White Sox (if we're talking about the same deal - that 4 way deal). So we could cut them out if we want because they aren't giving the other parties anything. Which deal is better for us? Vasquez and Kotsay plus cash for Konerko and Garland OR Burnett for Konerko and Garland (and I think Burnett is unsigned past this year - is that right)? Either way, Arizona gets Konerko and Garland, NY gets Johnson but loses Vasquez and Kotsay. So we're the fulcrum here - do we benefit with Fla in the deal? Arizona and NY aren't affected either way Burnett before Tommy John was a front line starter, and as stated before showed glimpises of it last year. I think another off-season to heal and this guy should be a stud in 05. I feel that we can grab both Hudson and Aj and sign them both to 3 year extenstions. KW needs to work the phones a little, grab one of the top prospect that the A's would like from the deal yesterday, Then deal Either Uribe or Harris to the A's along with Sweeney/anderson to get Hudson Then Sign Polanco to play the postion that we gave up To replace the 1b, see if Gibbons is non tenured sign him since it seems Delgado is thinking out of his ass when it comes to money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bartman's my idol Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 this was on cubstalk. take it for what its worth but god i hope its not true. White Sox involved in another trade? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yankees Trade Vasquez and Karsay to Marlins. Yankees Trade Gordon to Diamondbacks. Marlins Trade A.J. Burnett to White Sox. White Sox trade Garland and Konerko to Diamondbacks. Diamondbacks trade Randy Johnson to Yankees. Reported on ESPN Radio....Said deal is almost done.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yankees' Board Any thoughts on that deal? I would assume the NYY is paying nearly all of Vazquez salary and probably sending some cash somewhere else in the deal. Why not deal directly with the Marlins, Ozzie has a good relationship with them, deal Garland and PK for AJ and Castillo, if you want to throw in "PEAPOD", I wouldn't be upset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulokis Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 AJ Burnett will make our rotation one of the best in the bigs. I like what Kenny is doing, he better sign another SP or trade for one to make this offseason a very good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShySox72 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I think it would be a huge mistake to trade Pauly. The Sox needed to keep either Konerko or Lee. I realize that pitching is a concern, but look at the A's of the past few years. Pitching along cannot get it done. A good mixture is needed & this is what Konerko brings to the table. Besides, Ozzie ball doesn't need speed from 1B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 this is what Konerko brings to the table. Making cripples look fast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShySox72 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Not his wheels, but his stick. Production on offense. I'm a little skeptical on how the Sox will produce enough runs without Mags, Lee, or Konerko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank the Tank 35 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Hi, this is my first post: Overall, if KW had to take a chance on any trade, this is the one I'd hope he'd do. AJ Burnett is simply put a stud, front-of-the-line type pitcher. Baseball is my #1 sport and following closely through fantasy teams for several years, I can say that this guy has ridiculously good stuff. He and Vazquez are both very good pitchers, but I have to give the edge to AJ. They are both capable of striking out hitters at almost one per inning... a plus at a hitter's friendly park like US Comiskular. However, Vazquez gives up alot more homers than Burnett. Both pitchers are young in their respective careers so let's examine each pitcher's best year as evidence of their capabilities since Burnett was out with Tommy John's (due to Marlins' overuse and abuse) and there were reports of Vazquez having arm/shoulder problems during last season. Vazquez 2003 (MTL): W L ERA G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO 13 12 3.24 34 34 4 1 0 0 230.2 198 93 83 28 4 57 241 Burnett 2002 (FL): 12 9 3.30 31 29 7 5 0 1 204.1 153 84 75 12 9 90 203 As you can see W/L records are a wash (although I hardly find them tellling) as well as ERA. Burnett wins out in shutouts (Vazquez's single season high was 3). Had he been allotted the same number of innings, Burnett's strikeout total and earned run total would be about equal to Vazquez's. Vazquez would have allowed more hits, but Burnett would make that up with a greater number of walks. But the biggest number that you have to look at here is the number of homeruns given up. Vazquez, over the same amount of innings, would have doubled the number of homeruns that Burnett would have given up... a BIG problem if pitching for the Sox. Although I'd expect Vazquez to pitch better for the Sox than he did for the Yanks, I can see his 33 homers given up last year going up. Additional notes to consider: Salaries--- Vazquez $10,500,000 (2005) $11,500,000 (2006) $12,500,000 (2007) Burnett $3,121,429 (one year left) If Vazquez could return to his 2003 form and the way mediocre pitchers are being signed to huge contracts... his contract might not be so horrible. However, Burnett's contract is considerable less. Personally, I'd take the risk on him, have Ozzie try and schmooze him, and try to sign him to an extension. Injuries--- Burnett Tommy John's Vazquez ? shoulder/arm problems ? Vazquez's numbers suffered last year. Whether it was the "New York pressure" or a dead arm/injury, is undecided... but it's a risk whatever it is. Burnett had Tommy John because his manager had this cute idea of letting him pitch till his arm fell off. He came back last year and started off a little rocky. However, over the final ten games he lowered his ERA from 4.53 to 3.68 while only allowing 2 homers (compared with 7 in his first 10 games back). To me, the lesser risk here is Burnett as he's clearly on the road to recovery and return to stardom while Vazquez only deteriorated as last season wore on. Other aspects of the trade: Konerko AND Garland for him? Marlins get Vazquez and Karsay (who's not just a throw-in... is a GREAT reliever with a career 3.87 ERA (started career as starter) and had a 3.26 ERA in his last full season (2002). Burnett is clearly the better option for the Sox and the better bargain, so it seems right that the Marlins get an additional pitcher in return. The Sox should still get another prospect out of this deal though... preferable from the Marlins... and talent-wise should correspond with how much the Yankees would pay of Vazquez's salary. Konerko's 2005 salary $8.75 million Garland's 2005 salary $2.3 million Burnett's 2005 salary $3.1 million (approx) 8.75+2.3-3.1=7.95 or roughly $8 million dollars saved $63 mill (current sox payroll)- 8= $55 mill I don't know how much the cheapass chairman plans on spending this year but needless to say we would have alot of money left over. The problem would be working fast enough to get this trade through before other FA's sign contracts. There was talk about having interest in the left-handed Carlos Delgado. He might be close to a contract with the M's (not to mention asking waaay too much), so he could be out of the picture along with Sexson. I think most of us could agree that after we traded Konerko and Garland, the chances of trading for Hudson dwindle even farther, not to mention that there isn't really any mention of the Sox being in contention in the Hudson hunt anyway. Therefore it would be wise to spend some of that money on either Clement or Perez. I think both pitchers would put up similar number for the Sox meaning I'd probably take whichever would come cheaper. I'm assuming the cheapest we could lock one of them up for would be 8 million (Perez will sign for more than 6 per year, obviously... perhaps Clement would take a lesser contract to stay in Chicago, not have to move, etc). That takes us back up to $63 mill. Rotation complete: Garcia Buerle Burnett Clement/Perez Contreras Since our pen is already the best at least in the division, I think we can leave that alone. What about the gaping holes now in the lineup? Who could replace Konerko in the lineup? Well, Ross Gload showed me alot last year. Don't get me wrong, I love Paulie, but those were some career numbers he put up last year. I can see him at best repeating those numbers but will probably fall short of the homers he had last year. Ross Gload stepped up whenever called upon... for a spot start, for a pinch hit, etc. Imagine what he could do given daily playing time? Let's look at the numbers here too: G AB R H 2B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG R Gload 110 234 28 75 16 7 44 112 20 37 0 3 .375 .479 .321 P Konerko 155 563 84 156 22 41 117 301 69 107 1 0 .359 .535 .277 extrapolating Gload's numbers out, he would have: 38 doubles 17 homers 180 hits! 106 RBI! 48 BB 89 SO It would appear as if Gload could not only replace Konkero's productivity, but he would also fit better into the Sox's new smallball approach. (Homers kill rallies). Gload had a higher average and higher OBP... hard things to accomplish in limited playing time. Although this is mere speculation and obviously I'd be more comfortable with a proven commodity like Konerko... if he had to be traded for pitching... I'd feel comfortable knowing Gload could take over. After that, if we made two more additions, we could be complete: As much as I've always despised Pierzynski, hated his guts, etc., he would actually be a welcome addition to the Sox. His production took a dip last year but that could've come from clubhouse disputes, moving to the NL, etc. He is a career .294 hitter and look at his numbers from 2003: 137 487 63 152 35 3 11 74 226 24 55 3 1 .360 .464 .312 I believe he would be due $5 million at arbitration but could possibly had for cheaper (someone correct me on the 5 million if I'm wrong). That takes us up to $68 million. Alot of questions surround the new acquisition of Podsednik and there are many lingering questions about Willie. If we picked up Polanco, we could have adequate insurance for both... heck Polanco may even be a starter. If Willie faulters (or fails to win the job in spring training), Polanco could step in. If Podsednik faulters, Willie goes out to the outfield and Polanco goes in to 2B. He could probably be had for $3 million per year but let's say 4. So in grand total the Sox's payroll ends at $72 million. That's perfectly reasonable and is a price that maybe even Reinsdorf would approve. That would leave our lineup looking like this: Podsednik .275 (.290 wishful) 65 SB .340 OBP (.355) Harris/Polanco .275/.290 30 SB/15 SB .350 OBP/.345 OBP Rowand .300 100 RBI 30 homers 20 SB .360 OBP Thomas/Everett .270/.270 35 homers/25-30 homers 100RBI .400 OBP/.350 OBP Dye .270-.280 110 RBI 30 homers .340-.350 OBP Pierzynski .290-.300 70-80 RBI .350 OBP Gload .300 (hit .321 last year, get off my back) 100 RBI (off my back) .370 OBP Uribe .280-.290 25 homers .330 OBP Crede .260 (.280 finally fulfills potential) 25 homers (low 30's) .320-.330 OBP Most of these numbers are not career year numbers, these numbers are what these players could actually be counted on to achieve year after year. A decent lineup that could win behind the monster pitching staff we'd have. Not quite as much speed as one could wish for (a la 2003 Marlins) but legitimate stealing threats in Posednik, Harris, Polanco, Rowand, Dye, maybe Uribe. Unfortunately DH, 1B, C, and 3B will be a no go on the basebaths. The Marlins's team (as IS the model for winning with a lower budget than the Yankees) had speed even at catcher (I-Rod) and 1B (D Lee). Obviously this lineup hinges on the recoveries of Thomas, Everett, and Dye and the potential of Harris and Podsednik (although Polanco could be used to replace either), Gload, Crede, etc. There are ALOT of question marks here, but that's the kind of risk you have to take when you aren't willing to spend enough money. At least there wouldn't be any questions with the pitching... something we haven't had in a looong time. Overall I'd say it's a definite downgrade in offense... regardless of the balance or not... we will not score as many runs... we may score more evenly however and our pitching will keep us in EVERY game. Great defense too. Sorry my first post was so long... but there was alot of stuff I wanted to get out there after reading this forum for the past week. You may now begin your rebuttals. 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Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Look, if you're not gonna put any thought into your posts..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogs35 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 wow some1 had a lot of time today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjones Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'd do it if we got Delgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Welcome to soxtalk frank the tank, excellent post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 how about a hello for your "first" post, and please people no more hard ons for polanco, get over it!! OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjones Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 yeah dont think we'll get polanco but I think we'll get Cora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Burnett could really have a Carl Pavano like year if he stayed down in Florida. He's almost 2 years coming back from surgery, which seems to be the timetable for coming back successfully and pitching better (e.g. Jon Lieber). The Marlins are worried they won't be able to lock him up after next season though considering he'll be a free agent. Sooner or later, they're going to have to pay one of their young pitchers big money though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Frank the Tank.... Hell of a way to start posting here... Now how are you ever going to live up to the expectations of your first post Welcome to Soxtalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 No one welcomed me that way:(...anyway, I don't see this trade going down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 No one welcomed me that way:(...anyway, I don't see this trade going down. Welcome to the board to you, Frank, and whoever else that's come on in the past week...It's cool to see all the additional Sox fans starting to post after the recent movement by the team. Hope you guys stick around! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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