I guess it was time for Carlos to move on

[Molto]

and will people believe him?

 

all that will be doing is creating a conflict between the organization and another player who is no longer with the team and also, a lot of people will just take it as KW making up s*** so the trade looks good.

[Dick Allen]

and will people believe him?

 

all that will be doing is creating a conflict between the organization and another player who is no longer with the team and also, a lot of people will just take it as KW making up s*** so the trade looks good.

What it looks like now is Cowley is so concerned with his status with the team, he'll use his medium to make Lee look bad, and make an unpopular trade by most fans accounts look more reasonable. Like I said before, if this is suitable to print now, he should have written the story when it happen. The rest of the team would have appreciated it, and Cowley wouldn't have come off as a guy easily intimidated by players and management. He works for the Southtown not the White Sox.

[beck72]

Taking the word of a pussy who waited until Lee was gone before he wrote the story.

A pussy would have sat on the article. I'm sure there are plenty of writers who have the same types of notes and quotes.

 

This isn't directed just at you, and maybe I'm missing the boat, but why the focus on one writer, and not the implications of the article's content? Which is that this trade could help the sox build a better clubhouse and team, and help the sox win and make the playoffs.

[Dick Allen]

A pussy would have sat on the article. I'm sure there are plenty of writers who have the same types of notes and quotes.

 

This isn't directed just at you, and maybe I'm missing the boat, but why the focus on one writer, and not the implications of the article's content? Which is that this trade could help the sox build a better clubhouse and team, and help the sox win and make the playoffs.

Writing the story when the target of his wrath doesn't have any way of rebuttal is being a pussy. A man would have just said good riddance, Carlos. He could have just said his total game is overrated, and that is clubhouse presence left something to be desired, something like that.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I imagine FlaSoxxJim has a high dollar stats program that could determine the T value and give all sorts of reasons why, or why not, the stat is meaningful.

I think jackie's point, re small sample size is entirely valid, but as a baseball fan I also firmly believe there are clutch and non-clutch performers. That being the case, there is a a statistical impasse because there are never going to be enough of specific clutch situations to collect a large sample size for any player.

 

Tangent: Thinking of the ultimate small sample size statistics in the game, I think hitter-pitcher matchups may take the cake. So, if a guy has only faced an opponent a dozen times in his career, the statistal validity of drawing conclusions based on that small sample size could be questioned. BUT, who are you going to PH in late innings against a stud pitcher - a guy who has had success in limited past matchups or a guy who hasn't?

 

Sadly, sometimes small sample sizes are all you have to work with, but it doesn't mean you cannot gain any insights from them - you just have to be aware of the limitations.

 

As for Cowley's piece, I've always liked him over any of the other beat writers so I assume there are valid points here. I loved Carlos but saw many of the shortcomings the piece brought up. And small sample size and all, Carlos' frequent inability to come through when something was on the line is a valid issue.

[jackie hayes]

Tangent: Thinking of the ultimate small sample size statistics in the game, I think hitter-pitcher matchups may take the cake.  So, if a guy has only faced an opponent a dozen times in his career, the statistal validity of drawing conclusions based on that small sample size could be questioned.  BUT, who are you going to PH in late innings against a stud pitcher - a guy who has had success in limited past matchups or a guy who hasn't?

It depends. If the players are otherwise identical, you go with the guy who has the better stats against the pitcher. But do you go with Timo over Hurt b/c Timo is 4/10 while Hurt is 1/10 against the pitcher? There's very little information there.

[TLAK]

It depends.  If the players are otherwise identical, you go with the guy who has the better stats against the pitcher.  But do you go with Timo over Hurt b/c Timo is 4/10 while Hurt is 1/10 against the pitcher?  There's very little information there.

 

We as fans, watching on TV or far up in the stands can tell if a batter see's the ball off a particular pitcher. If we can see this I expect a baseball lifer, 40 feet away can see it too. It's not just the stats, if a guy has looked horrible in a certain match up, why beat your head against a wall and keep sending him out there?

 

Another thing I noticed last year was the Sox seem scout themselves a lot more than in the past, particularly in the batting cage. In the pre-game shows, Oz mentioned how a guy was looking numerous times when asked about seemingly out of the blue line ups.

[jackie hayes]

I guess it was just coincidence that Timo Perez hit almost .400 last season with RISP yet had an average just above .200.  Clutch is clutch, some guys have it and others don't.

Ah, but in 2003 Timo hit only .179 with RISP and 2 out, so how can he be a guy who has it? If 13 abs are evidence of anything, Timo's 39 are a lead-pipe cinch.

[jackie hayes]

We as fans, watching on TV or far up in the stands can tell if a batter see's the ball off a particular pitcher.  If we can see this I expect a baseball lifer, 40 feet away can see it too.  It's not just the stats, if a guy has looked horrible in a certain match up, why beat your head against a wall and keep sending him out there?

 

Another thing I noticed last year was the Sox seem scout themselves a lot more than in the past, particularly in the batting cage.  In the pre-game shows, Oz mentioned how a guy was looking numerous times when asked about seemingly out of the blue line ups.

I was just going from the stats here, not from other evidence. If a guy can't hit a cutter, you don't bat him against Mariano Rivera, sure. But just because he hasn't hit one pitcher in the past, even though he's a much better hitter overall? You won't find many people, if any, in baseball who would bench Frank for Timo just b/c Timo's gone 4-for-9 and Frank's gone 0-for-7. Would you do that?

[Rowand44]

Carlos Lee not clutch?

 

I beg to differ.

 

In some of the biggest games this team has had, Carlos has made some huge hits.

 

I.E. 2004 vs. the Cubs -- After Glendon Rusch absolutely mowed down the Sox lineup for eight innings in a row, Carlos Lee comes up in the ninth and bashes a homer out to left center field.

 

And, a couple years earlier (2001 or 2002), didn't Carlos hit a grand slam in extra innings to beat the Cubbies at Comisky?

 

 

To say Carlos isn't clutch is bulls***.  He's come up with his fair share of hits as much as anyone.

Carlos was always one of the last guys I wanted to see up to the plate with the game on the line. He'd look just for the long ball and many times over swing and hit a little pop up to the shortstop.

[TLAK]

I was just going from the stats here, not from other evidence.  If a guy can't hit a cutter, you don't bat him against Mariano Rivera, sure.  But just because he hasn't hit one pitcher in the past, even though he's a much better hitter overall?  You won't find many people, if any, in baseball who would bench Frank for Timo just b/c Timo's gone 4-for-9 and Frank's gone 0-for-7.  Would you do that?

No, I'd never pinch hit for Thomas, he's much too big to get mad at me.

 

I buy what you say, though.

 

Reverse the coin, if Borch is 4-7 against a guy do you pinch for him in the 9th? If Frank is available, yes. The manager is going to put they guy who he thinks, for what ever reason, has the best chance of getting a hit.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Carlos was always one of the last guys I wanted to see up to the plate with the game on the line.

Unless it's the bottom of the 10th, bases loaded, and we're playing the Cubs.

[greg775]

Cowley wrote:

At one point near the end of the 2004 season, Lee was sitting in the clubhouse by a few reporters and was asked whom he liked on the team since Ordonez had been absent because of a knee injury.

"No one," he responded. "I hate everyone."

Go get 'em, "El Asno."

 

--Wow. Do you believe this? Carlos didn't seem like the bitter type.

[greg775]

Oops, my apologies. This is in the other thread.

My bad.

Kill this topic.

[qwerty]

Cowley wrote:

At one point near the end of the 2004 season, Lee was sitting in the clubhouse by a few reporters and was asked whom he liked on the team since Ordonez had been absent because of a knee injury.

"No one," he responded. "I hate everyone."

Go get 'em, "El Asno."

 

--Wow. Do you believe this? Carlos didn't seem like the bitter type.

I think it was out of context.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Meh, somebody in an earlier thread probably nailed it when they said this quote was taken completely out of context to drive the piece home. That's the kind of cut up talk you'd expect to hear from anyone in the dugout or in the clubhouse and I don't think it means anything.

 

As I said alsewhere, I like Cowley and think he does a good job following the team throughout the season. I see a bitt of sensationalism in the story, and maybe some of it was over the top - particularly ragging on his defense which I think he busted his ass to bring up to par. But I'm not going to stop taking stock in what the guy reports, even if this piece was kind of slamming Carlos on his way out the door.

[greg775]

I read every post on this thread.

What great posts!

I think it's OK to write the story now for the reasons

everybody said, but I also am thinking back to the

season. Didn't Carlos watch a couple shots from home

plate ultimately hit the wall?

I remember at the time backing Carlos on it.

But if Carlos is indeed the biggest dick since Tracy,

shouldn't somebody have written a blast column after

Caballo watched those homers from home plate.

Joe probably shoulda showed some balls back then

and wrote a similar column.

Cause when Carlos watched those homers, that could

have been newsworthy and just as readable back then

and would have let us readers into Carlos' apparent

donkey-like personality.

 

That said ... good luck Carlos. One story won't make

me hate you. There are 2 sides to every story, though

I trust Steff and she repeats Cowley's assertions as

Carlos being a dick.

[Steff]

That said ... good luck Carlos. One story won't make

me hate you. There are 2 sides to every story, though

I trust Steff and she repeats Cowley's assertions as

Carlos being a dick.

What I do know - and it's not that Carlos is a dick - is that Cowley wouldn't wirte something that he couldn't prove 1500000%. He's an ass sometimes as well (Cowley). But I've never known him to print a lie (referring to Mark's comments or the quote by Carlos)

[YASNY]

YASNY, I have a small disagreement with you on this. The problem I have with career stats as they do not always reflect the guys current condition. Extreme example Take Shamee pre-"working out" and post "working out" power numbers. Factor in career and it lowers what you could reasonably expect from him. IT also doesn't take into consideration the age of the player. Career stats for a 30 year old may be a better reflection in his next 5 seasons than career stats on a 40 year old.

 

I try and see some trends in the numbers. Know what you are looking at (as you do)and draw reasonable conclusions based on the appropriateness of the stats. Career stats may or may not be a good tool to judge the future performance. It depends on the individual. The previous 2-5 years may be an even better tool. Sometime you need a hammer, sometimes a wrench. Each tool is different, just as each stat is different.

You guys are arguing both sides against the middle. First I get 2004 stats thrown in my face as not being a large enough sample size, though the career stats are used as well. I point out the career stat fact, and I get "they do not always reflect the guys current condition" in response, which is reflect by the 2004 stats.

 

I give up. You guys win. Go celebrate.