I guess it was time for Carlos to move on

[Yossarian]

There had been whispers of a problem, or problems. with Carlos from time to time. You never know what's really going on behind the scenes, unless you are Steff.   Carlos at times hustled his ass off out there, and then at other times didn't seem to have his head entirely in the game ..... like watching a "homer" that ain't quite one.  Considering that this was the reporter and not the Sox spilling the beans, you have to believe there's some truths here.  If this is the case, the Sox are better off after making this trade.  Perhaps this is why the Sox didn't quite receive the value for Lee that we thought they should have.

Thanks for posting this about the trade. I was livid about it, but this is giving me second thoughts. I don't live in Chicago and have only a few casual baseball contacts, with no insiders in Chicago. So while I still don't think the Sox got enough for Lee, maybe it had to go down this way. I'd still like to see a full court press by JR and Co to retake Chicago from the "lovable losers" on the north side. In the near term we could use a really decent SP and for the long haul the Sox can do a better job scouting, drafting and developing young talent. The Twins always seem to have a bottomless cup when it comes to good young players.

[Guest JimH]

Carlos Lee is a great talent and his contributions to the Sox were many.

 

But it's no secret the Sox were working with him to use his head a little more, be more of a team player. Think back to the comments made at season's end, where both Guillen and Williams remarked how "Carlos thinks he's a Gold Glover out there, and that's fine, we'll let him think that". And KW's remarks mid season how he spoke to Carlos, and "Carlos knows what we expect".

 

It was very clear the White Sox wanted a more well-rounded game from Carlos Lee and for whatever reason, they felt he wasn't "getting it" fast enough.

 

This article, though maybe a bit harsh, is no surprise. Articles like this happen all the time ... witness the Boston columnists these last two days re: Pedro.

 

Cowley was down there all the time, he knows what he's talking about. But let's also remember this was more of an opinion article vs. a game report. Cowley's opinion is liberally sprinkled throughout the article.

[greasywheels121]

I'm going to kind of ignore what was said in the article, though there were times it looked like he wanted to get the HR for himself. He was one of my favorite guys when he was here, but some reason I really had no problem stomaching his dismissial. Thanks for the good years Caballo.

[LosMediasBlancas]

2 thoughts,

In regard to why this is coming out now, some Sox fans still don't fully understand or like the trade, this sheds some light on why it happened.

Secondly, more and more Sox players seem to leave the team on bad terms, or with personality conflicts. It explains some of the lack of team attitude, heart, balls and guts of the past few years.

[CanOfCorn]

Mike.. I don't disagree with you. I don't see the point to Cowley bringing it back up either.

I think your question is answered by this thread. Carlos has a lot of fans on the south side. If Cowley wrote it during the last two very offensively productive years, most people wouldn't believe it or pass it off as the Sox using a reporter. But what would that have accomplished? His value would've REALLY dropped.

 

Cowley wrote this story because it is newsworthy. Sox fans are questioning the trade and Cowley is giving A reason, not THE reason.

 

The last few days on this board there has been speculation that KW got raked over the coals in the trade...then not-so-much if Ginter is coming...then if Ginter's not coming they better use it for a SP, and so on. Cowley is giving us insider information (that we all love) into the inner workings of a trade. That's it's not all about talent for talent. Or about saving money. Or even about addition by subtraction. Joe Cowley is one reporter, giving us one opinion on why a trade was made.

 

There was a part of the article talking about the difference between Carlos and Frank...Frank plays better when he is called out in public and KW thought Carlos wouldn't respond the same way. Maybe KW or Ozzie or the PR department asked for those conversations that Carlos had with management be off the record. For the team's sake.

 

I see what everyone is saying, that Carlos is an easy target now that he's gone. But I don't think this is leaving on bad terms. There was no messy contract negotiations. There was no trade demanding. There was no leaving a game or asking out of a game. It's a trade between two teams that get what they need.

 

Bottom line, Joe Cowley is a reporter. He is writing a timely, newsworthy story. You don't have to believe it, or like it. But, there was definitely a place for it.

[SkokieSox]

It's hardly a conspiracy theory to assume the White Sox organization is spinning this trade in their favor.

What spokesman from the White Sox was interviewed for this article? This is how the writer feels given his history and presence in the club house. Hardly a White Sox spin. The Southtown has had it's fair share of criticism as well. They call it as they see it, and not what the Sox want to say.

[Texsox]

The one thing that always fixes these attitude questions, this team chemistry, is winning something. Amazing how winning teams always have "chemistry" and "attitude". Win something and all that s*** happens.

[qwerty]

All I got to say is the yard gnome is gone and Roger can replace the dirt spot in left and there will be more room in the bullpen when pitching changes are made.

He is no longer a ''yard gnome.''

[Steff]

Dybber.. thanks for the detailed response.. but you're not telling me anything I don't already know. I'm trying to be conscience of the "other side". Thanks though..

[CanOfCorn]

Dybber.. thanks for the detailed response.. but you're not telling me anything I don't already know. I'm trying to be conscience of the "other side". Thanks though..

I guess what I was trying to say is taht there IS a reason for this article now. And it's a simple one...it's newsworthy. No other real reason. Ulterior motives or not.

 

 

I guess i should have just done this before...it's much shorter.

[SoIL]

It explains some of the lack of team attitude, heart, balls and guts of the past few years.

I think this has been the biggest problem with the Sox since 2000. We've had some great talent but always see to fold when it's time to step up to the plate. If trading Carlos brings has brought us three hard working team players, we are much better off. I didn't dislike Carlos, but he did frustrate me at times. Good luck to him in Milwuakee.

[Steff]

I guess what I was trying to say is taht there IS a reason for this article now.  And it's a simple one...it's newsworthy.  No other real reason.  Ulterior motives or not.

 

 

I guess i should have just done this before...it's much shorter.

And I guess I'm not being clear.. I understand why he did it. Just don't agree with it.

[Chisoxfn]

Wow interesting piece. I guess I could see that from Carlos but I always figured some of the stuff just wasn't true. He always had a smile on so you didn't see it.

 

He isn't Sosa, but that article definately makes you question some things. It also reminds me why Konerko is my favorite offensive player on the Sox, even if I do sometimes suggest trading him cause his contract, lol.

 

The end of the article really said some things. Cowley is a legit reporter and he does a great job so I take this as being very true. The guy is down in the clubhouse after most games and talks to the players often.

 

This is something he couldn't do during the season, with so many Carlos Lee fans. Plus I'm glad he didn't cause it would of had a negative effect on his trade value.

[jackie hayes]

I don't trust these "oh, you have no idea how bad this guy's attitude was" articles. They just scream "justification!" When you trade Milton Bradley for attitude problems, you understand, the guy's a powder keg. Carlos may have cared about the numbers -- everyone does, it's just a question of how much -- but he never made problems or demands.

 

If Carlos was this big a problem, it sure is strange that they resigned him just a year ago to this 3-year deal. And that they didn't trade him in one of the previous offsesaons. Cowley said this has been a problem since 2002, after all.

 

Btw, those clutch stats are bs. Bases-loaded? Carlos had 13 abs with the bases jammed. That's just sad, Cowley.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Evev without the gossipy part, the most telling, important, and factual portion of the article were the stats. No teamate had to make a single comment, no manager had to say a thing, no sportswriter had to write a demeaning article to prove Carlos level of selfishness; the numbers Cowley showed were plenty.

 

A couple of other folks were correct, I remember hearing several stories of problems with his attitude. For the last couple years I've been reading this board nearly everyone b****ed about his lack of a mental game. Why are we acting like this is a revelation, all made up by Cowley? Not everyone reads soxtalk, I'm glad this story is out there so that those lost souls that don't frequent the board can realize that good offensive numbers aren't necessarily an indicator of true contributions to a team's wins or a healthy clubhouse. Like I said earlier, I've been a fan of Carlos and will continue to be a fan of Carlos. Those #'s that Cowley wrote about were new news to me, and certainly lessens Lee's value to a team without lessening my level of fandom for the guy.

[Rex Kickass]

Lee was one of my favorite players in the last few years. Caballo looked like he enjoyed himself out there and played hard quite a bit. I didn't notice that this year. I did often wonder why Lee wasn't in on the action in a lot of plays in his territory. I did often wonder why he was aiming for the Home Run when the base hit would do.

 

What I don't get about this thread, is why is it OK for columnists to bash the trade, but when you write a story hailing the trade - and claiming - with some evidence to back it up - that it was more than just about speed and production, it's a hatchet job.

[upnorthsox]

Lee was one of my favorite players in the last few years. Caballo looked like he enjoyed himself out there and played hard quite a bit. I didn't notice that this year. I did often wonder why Lee wasn't in on the action in a lot of plays in his territory. I did often wonder why he was aiming for the Home Run when the base hit would do.

 

What I don't get about this thread, is why is it OK for columnists to bash the trade, but when you write a story hailing the trade - and claiming - with some evidence to back it up - that it was more than just about speed and production, it's a hatchet job.

Funny, I read a thread this morning on quotes from all the different sportswriters on this trade and except for a few kudo's thrown Arvia's way it was pretty much a bash the media fest.

[Flash Tizzle]

What spokesman from the White Sox was interviewed for this article? This is how the writer feels given his history and presence in the club house. Hardly a White Sox spin. The Southtown has had it's fair share of criticism as well. They call it as they see it, and not what the Sox want to say.

Were you honestly expecting a representative of the White Sox to speak (on the record) of Lee's attitude problems?

 

Listen, the article may have been written based on his clubhouse experience, but who among us can rule out White Sox influence in this article? It's a simple premise: Joe Cowley is given permission (through connections) to release an article concerning Lee's attitude. There's no need to create further hypothetical situations. It's not impossible to understand why the White Sox would attempt to spin the trade of Lee following Ordonez's departure.

 

If this article is entirely blasphemus, shouldn't Mark Buerhle or Kenny Williams release statements dismissing the content? If false, I hope Carlos Lee replies back with a statement damning this entire organization.

 

Yes, you can say I'm wearing a tin-foil hat, but I've been conditioned to think this way.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Cowley's "stats" are bulls***.

batting average in late innings of close games — revealed he hit .235 in those situations. Konerko hit .391 in that category.

If you're going to write a hatchet job after the fact 1) make sure your stats are correct -- Caballo hit .286, Kong .268 -- http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/battin...Type=2&type=reg

2) don't base your article on subsets of larger samples to try and make your point.

 

W/RISP stats fluctuate wildy from year to year. 2-out RISP stats fluctuate even more. It's about sample size.

 

Podsednik hit .209/.313/.357 w/RISP

.209/.312/.433 RISP 2 out

.253/.299/.465 Close and Late

 

------------

 

In 2003, Carlos was .346/.378/.654 w/RISP

.338/.390/.704 RISP, 2 out

[Texsox]

Cowley's "stats" are bulls***.  If you're going to write a hatchet job after the fact 1) make sure your stats are correct -- Caballo hit .286, Kong .268 -- http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/battin...Type=2&type=reg

2) don't base your article on subsets of larger samples to try and make your point.

 

W/RISP stats fluctuate wildy from year to year. 2-out RISP stats fluctuate even more.  It's about sample size. 

 

Podsednik hit .209/.313/.357 w/RISP

.209/.312/.433 RISP 2 out

.253/.299/.465 Close and Late

 

------------

 

In 2003, Carlos was .346/.378/.654 w/RISP

.338/.390/.704 RISP, 2 out

This is one thing I really love about this site. So many knowledgeable baseball fans. Facts talk and bulls*** walks. And remember there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[Texsox]

I remember during the Olivo trade that KW or JR mentioned that they have a 5-year roster projection and MO was on that projection. I wonder if Lee was also?

[qwerty]

I remember during the Olivo trade that KW or JR mentioned that they have a 5-year roster projection and MO was on that projection. I wonder if Lee was also?

It's a three year roster projection.

[jackie hayes]

Cowley's "stats" are bulls***.  If you're going to write a hatchet job after the fact 1) make sure your stats are correct -- Caballo hit .286, Kong .268 -- http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/battin...Type=2&type=reg

2) don't base your article on subsets of larger samples to try and make your point.

 

W/RISP stats fluctuate wildy from year to year. 2-out RISP stats fluctuate even more.  It's about sample size. 

 

Podsednik hit .209/.313/.357 w/RISP

.209/.312/.433 RISP 2 out

.253/.299/.465 Close and Late

 

------------

 

In 2003, Carlos was .346/.378/.654 w/RISP

.338/.390/.704 RISP, 2 out

 

There's some difference between ESPN's "close and late" and MLB's "close and late". Cowley was using MLB's, even though the ESPN stat is the common definition (at least, it's the one I've heard about before). Who knows why he chose that one...

 

I can't figure out how MLB defines "close and late".

[Hatchetman]

I gotta say, even though the guy is potentially dying, he still hangs on to the hate. Sad really. Wonder what petty slight Carlos did to Cowley?

 

The stats are completely bogus. The claims are completely unsubstantiated.

 

A few examples that would show a player in a bad light could be found for any player.

[winninguglyin83]

Timing of the story sure suggests that somebody fired up Cowley with even more dirt on Carlos.

 

The overall reaction of the Sox fan base to the trade has been lukewarm to upset.

 

This puts a different spin on it.

 

I can certainly imagine some Sox folks feeding stuff off the record to the guy who wrote the story.

 

I'm certain Carlos had his flaws. But from what I saw over his career with the Sox he made himself a better outfielder and he sure came up clutch a number of times. He always had big stones in the games against the Cubs.

 

I think he's being viewed a little too harsh.