Affirmative Action

[whitesox247]

The Supreme Court is now deciding whether affirmative action should be taken. The issue is whether the race of students should be considered in universities and colleges. IMO, race should NOT be a factor. While it makes the schools more diverse, it is definately unfair to those with better qualifications. And also, the fact that many people dont realize is that it is demeaning to minorities. It's like the schools saying: here, since your a minority, I'll give you a head start because you're stupider than everyone else.

High school entry should be strictly based on academic and extra-curricular activities, not your race.

 

Article

[cwsox]

This way over simplifies and mis states what the U of M is doing - the backing for the UM program is strong in this state. One of the 3 plaintiffs had a 25 ACT - sorry, you don't qualify anyway. And that plaintiff was admitted to UM-Dearborn - she got admitted to UM, just not one campus, but on another.

 

I am not going to debate the ins and outs of what Michigan's program actually is - NPR is doing an hour of the Supreme Court hearing today at 7 central - you can learn more there.

 

But all the over-simplifications are really a disservice to everyone. The joint chiefs of staffs and all kinds of military folk as well as many major corporations have filed briefs in supprt of the UM policy - everything Michigan does is legal along the lines of the Bakke decision and not very dissimilar from the policy at the military acadamies. Anyway the policy is far more complex than presented and this state as a whole is very proud of what UM is doing.

[CubKilla]

So you're for government-sanctioned discrimination? What happened to all of that 'government has to stay out of our lives' stuff you and SideshowTariq were preaching a few days ago?

[1549]

As long as Michigan keeps getting black athletes for the football + basketball teams, I don't really care...though as a white guy with grades that don't exactly knock you socks off, I guess I should be against affirmative action so I have a better chance at getting to one of the schools I want to go to...(unfortunately chemistry has killed any chance I had to go to my dream school, michigan)

[BridgeportHeather]

Affirmative action must go in every form! Rewarding ancestors of the oppressed is just useless. Such ancestors didn't have to go through the s*** their ancestors did, so why are they getting preferential treatment? Get rid of affirmative action!

[LowerCaseRepublican]

So you're for government-sanctioned discrimination? What happened to all of that 'government has to stay out of our lives' stuff you and SideshowTariq were preaching a few days ago? 

It's 20 points out of 150.

They need another 130 points. And if you are b****ing about affirmative action, what about Bush affirmative action that got him into the Presidency? Let's see, C average in Yale...It makes perfect sense that he'd get into Harvard That was state sanctioned discrimination if anything.

 

Affirmative action is not discrimination. It's evening things out. Are you all actually telling me that you'd want to be a black person in America since they get all the breaks right?

 

Also, I am a democratic socialist. That means the government is central to health care, etc. etc. etc. so I would not advocate a decentralized government. I just hate the corporate government that we have now.

[SI1020]

Discrimination in any form is wrong. When wealthy WASPS like Bush (believe me he's not the only one) get into Ivy league schools on a legacy it is wrong. When qualified applicants like Barbara Grutter are denied admittance to an upper tier program like the University of Michigan Law School that is also wrong. I understand why affirmative action is a reality. I still think it is a very bad policy. I believe in a meritocracy as strongly as I believe in anything. No race or ethnic group has a monopoly on intelligence or the ability to achieve. If the results are displeasing to some, then I think we need to raise our educational standards across the board, another thing I strongly believe in. If standards are raised and all have the opportunity and encouragement to achieve then the idea of affirmative action will be obselete. In any case, to make choices based on anything other than merit is in the long run suicidal for a society. Lastly, I could give a number of case histories of how "affirmative action" has affected various companies. It has ranged from a minor annoyance to near catastrophic. One company nearly went under in part because of it. I know because I worked for them.

[LDF]

Discrimination in any form is wrong. When wealthy WASPS like Bush (believe me he's not the only one) get into Ivy league schools on a legacy it is wrong. When qualified applicants like Barbara Grutter are denied admittance to an upper tier program like the University of Michigan Law School that is also wrong.  I understand why affirmative action is a reality. I still think it is a very bad policy. I believe in a meritocracy as strongly as I believe in anything. No race or ethnic group has a monopoly on intelligence or the ability to achieve. If the results are displeasing to some, then I think we need to raise our educational standards across the board, another thing I strongly believe in. If standards are raised and all have the opportunity and encouragement to achieve then the idea of affirmative action will be obselete. In any case, to make choices based on anything other than merit is in the long run suicidal for a society. Lastly, I could give a number of case histories of how "affirmative action" has affected various companies. It has ranged from a minor annoyance to near catastrophic. One company nearly went under in part because of it. I know because I worked for them.

the legacy that help bush jr get in is the money and the fact that sr is part of the skull and bones secret society and later jr as well.

 

i have mix feelings about affirmative actions. it was needed and i am a product of it. however i learned from my mistakes of being a punk in the streets that i wanted to make it better for me in the long run and that of my family. however, you have 100 other stories of that that didn't make a difference and caused more harm.

 

 

i don't know about it.

[YASNY]

IMHO, affimative action was needed at one time in this country, but no longer. It has been about 40 years since the civil rights movement started, and close to 20 since forced busing began. A full generation of students have gone to school and had relatively equal educational opportunities. I know, that is not across the board, but it has certainly been tried for a long enough period of time. In fact, if anything, it hashelped bring down our educational standards as the educational professionals lowered the standards over the years to give the previously under-educated a chance to catch up. If the opportunities which were given were not taken advantage of, that is not my fault and I should not be kept out of a university or lose an opportunity for employment because I don't happen to be a minority.

[LDF]

IMHO, affimative action was needed at one time in this country, but no longer.  It has been about 40 years since the civil rights movement started, and close to 20 since forced busing began.  A full generation of students have gone to school and had relatively equal educational opportunities.  I know, that is not across the board, but it has certainly been tried for a long enough period of time.  In fact, if anything, it hashelped bring down our educational standards as the educational professionals lowered the standards over the years to give the previously under-educated a chance to catch up.  If the opportunities which were given were not taken advantage of, that is not my fault and I should not be kept out of a university or lose an opportunity for employment because I don't happen to be a minority.

i respect what you say and agree with most of it. however, what happen if you another 100 students who like me want to make a difference. they need that extra little help. what then?

[cwsox]

I wonder how many listened to the extensive coverage on NPR last night of the arguments before the Supreme Court?

 

The Michigan case has nothing to do with lowering standards and it is wrong to suggest that affirmative action has done that in general, or that that is the issue in particular in the Michigan case. This case involves both the underfrad and the law school. The UM law school has taken no one who was not in the top 16% of the scores of the prelaw school exams and has consistently been one of the top ranked law schools in the country, currentl ranked 7th as the justices noted. Lowering of standards is not, not at issue.

 

Racism still exists in our society and expresses itself in many ways.

 

The question at Michigan is how to choose from a pool of generally equally qualified applicants to maintain the very high standards that Michigan has, and it rests upon the precept that diversity itself is an educational value.

 

Those last 6 words are what led the Joint Chiefs of Staff, retired military generals and admirals, and many in the military, as well as the leaders of so many corporations to file supporting briefs for UM. Diversity is itself an educational value. That has been not only a precept of education but the law of this land since the Bakke case, when quotas were ruled as illegal.

 

This society is not color blind. At Michigan to promote diveristy as an educational value, with a large number of applicants essentially equally qualified, the question was how to ensure the total quality of education, including the experience of students being with students not like them selves, from different cultures and backgrounds, of different experiences, so that students will leave the university better equipped to deal in a multicultural world, as well as overcome a uniformity of perspective in the classroom that results when students are all/almost all from the same social, racial, ethnic, and class status.

 

Overlooked in all this anti Michigan thing from people who haven't studied the case in depth is that students from rural backgrounds (predominately white) have benefitted as well - without the opportunity for all the glitz and star points on their curriculum vitaes, because their communities cannot generally afford to provide all the little spangles, yet totally academically qualified. This has been true of EVERYONE accepted at UM. Everyone has been academically qualified to meet Michigan's high standards. No one of lesser ability has been admited over someone more qualified. But the sense of entitlement of white suburbanites from the high end economic communities has been broken, and that is why the howls of protest.

 

Diversity as a value in education has been enhanced by ensuring a student body that represents diversity, and that diversity has been determined from all those who do qualify but space does not permit the admitting of all applicants.

 

Based on the oral arguments, the vote in the Supreme Court stands 4-4 with Justice O'Connor as the swing vote. I truly do pray that Justice O'Connor will providde the 5th vote to uphold the Bakke decision and uphold the U of Michigan. What I expect is not a clear decision in favor but a 5-4 with O'Connor writing a separate concurring opinion that will ask UM to address certain concerns that she had expressed at the oral arguments (such as no sunset provision in the UM process because of O'Connor's belief that racism in Amercia will end some day).

 

And for all those who have been so avidly praising our military leadership, please remember the totality of the military's support for the UM process, which is similar to that at the military academies. Not every high school student has access to the same opportunities. How does a school choose from all the qualified applicants to ensure a diverse student body since that is the world in which the graduates will live, and thus diversity is a value of education. That is all this is about.

 

Anyone who says that this is about lesser applicants admitted over more qualified applicants is simply wrong on the facts of this case.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Discrimination in any form is wrong. When wealthy WASPS like Bush (believe me he's not the only one) get into Ivy league schools on a legacy it is wrong. When qualified applicants like Barbara Grutter are denied admittance to an upper tier program like the University of Michigan Law School that is also wrong.  I understand why affirmative action is a reality. I still think it is a very bad policy. I believe in a meritocracy as strongly as I believe in anything. No race or ethnic group has a monopoly on intelligence or the ability to achieve. If the results are displeasing to some, then I think we need to raise our educational standards across the board, another thing I strongly believe in. If standards are raised and all have the opportunity and encouragement to achieve then the idea of affirmative action will be obselete. In any case, to make choices based on anything other than merit is in the long run suicidal for a society. Lastly, I could give a number of case histories of how "affirmative action" has affected various companies. It has ranged from a minor annoyance to near catastrophic. One company nearly went under in part because of it. I know because I worked for them.

the legacy that help bush jr get in is the money and the fact that sr is part of the skull and bones secret society and later jr as well.

 

i have mix feelings about affirmative actions. it was needed and i am a product of it. however i learned from my mistakes of being a punk in the streets that i wanted to make it better for me in the long run and that of my family. however, you have 100 other stories of that that didn't make a difference and caused more harm.

 

 

i don't know about it.

as with everything else .. sometimes you need it and sometimes you dont... each case should be done on an individual basis...............im all for the kid who is fighting to get things done and does work hard.. im not for the little punk ass who gets a break cause he can play a sport or something but is dumber than a box of rocks on his own choosing.............im on the fence with this one..............

[SI1020]

Why is diverisity defined only in terms of race. Doesn't a poor white kid from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan bring diversity to the table also? Wouldn't Barbar Grutter an educated professional woman who ran a small business add diversity to the mix? Like I said before I have seen affirmative action programs up close and personal. They range from mildly benign to absolutely catastrophic depending on how the company or institution wishes to implement it. When Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, John Henry Lloyd and others were denied a chance to play major league ball it was a terrible injustice. When George Bush and others get in to elite schools on legacies s at the expense of others more deserving that too is wrong. All forms of discrimination must go. I would like to see excellence in education across the board as my remedy to the problem. If that makes me a bad guy so be it.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

i dont think your a bad guy..............and things should be fair across the board.. it just doesnt work that way......not always anyhow........

[LDF]

Why is diverisity defined only in terms of race. Doesn't a poor white kid from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan bring diversity to the table also? Wouldn't Barbar Grutter an educated professional woman who ran a small business add diversity to the mix? Like I said before I have seen affirmative action programs up close and personal. They range from mildly benign to absolutely catastrophic depending on how the company or institution wishes to implement it. When Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, John Henry Lloyd and others were denied a chance to play major league ball it was a terrible injustice. When George Bush and others get in to elite schools on legacies s at the expense of others more deserving that  too is wrong. All forms of discrimination must go. I would like to see excellence in education across the board as my remedy to the problem. If that makes me a bad guy so be it.

you brought an interesting topic up and i will stay within that. so far in my opinion this thread is a fair one. many have you guys know this is a real sore subject with me and for me to say i am confortable with it. nice counters and interesting opinions.

 

 

ref to diverisity, what about women. i am taking this outside the school but will take it to the work force. i worked for the gov as many of you may know. i retired. but what i saw is women being bypass for certain supervisoral pos. with affirmative action, many women are being looked at these pos.

 

most gov branches are a country club for the male militaristic approach in doing things.

[cwsox]

SI, did you read my post?

 

What is before the court is the particular UM policy (and all of those that will be impacted by it), the facts of this case.

 

Read my post and tell me if what I said, or what UM is doing, is all about race.

 

As far as one particular potential law student who says, I'm qualified, who knows whose place would have lost had she been admitted.

[whitesox247]

I heard somewhere today that President Bush proposed a 10% plan. This would allow the top 10% students of all highschools to automatically be accepted into universities. I don't think thats fair at all. Instead of choosing tough, challenging high schools, students would more likely choose easier high schools and will get accepted into good universities as a reward.

[Chisoxfn]

I heard somewhere today that President Bush proposed a 10% plan. This would allow the top 10% students of all highschools to automatically be accepted into universities. I don't think thats fair at all. Instead of choosing tough, challenging high schools, students would more likely choose easier high schools and will get accepted into good universities as a reward.

Well, I'd think the top 10% at every school would be able to get in. The thing is, how do you judge the top 10%. Is it strictly on grades, do you count SAT's. All I know is if your smart and want to go to college you can. Heck, if you want to go to college you can go there. You can either go 4 year direct or do the JC system which is a great system. You save money the first two years, get more of an adjustment then transfer to a school. Both are great options and they allow anyone that wants more education that opportunity.

[doubleM23]

You can reform Affirmative Action as soon as you reform the horses*** way public schools are funded...

 

Farragut hasn't gotten any new science equipment in 10 years? f*** that, we need to repave New Trier's parking lot so those Beemers don't get a scratch on them.

[SI1020]

CW- sorry if I gave the impression that I didn't read your post. I always read what you and everybody else has to say. Giving 20 points out of 150 is a lot of assistance. Did you read me when I said I could give chapter and verse of specific companies and institutions and their attempts to implement AAction?

 

MM- Couldn't agree with you more about the state of education. Poor minorites in urban areas and poor whites in some rural areas are at a serious disadvantage. They deserve the same chance as everyone else. However when I came out in favor of vouchers and other methods to break the NEA monopoly I was savagely attacked on another board.

 

In conclusion just let me say that if my fortunes change and I'm in a position to hand out favors, jobs, contracts, housing etc then I will give special preference to Chicago White Sox fans because I'll already know those folks have a lot perserverance, loyalty and tenacity. Cubs fans applications go to the bottom of the pile.