NY Rumors about Vazquez

[Flash Tizzle]

Why Vazquez? Because he's a #1, #2 starter. If the Sox were willing to give Clement $7 mill a yr, Vazquez is worth $8 mill.

This is based solely on New York stomaching a substantial amount of Vazquez's contract. Yes, JV for 8 million is a bargain in today's market, but it's simply unreasonable. Unless Williams assembles a decent package, which could then be forwarded to Arizona, Yankees will not pay $10million. Williams assembles a quality package for Vazquez, I guaran-damn-tee another area of this team will suffer. Why create further problems?

 

No way do I see the sox heading into 2005 with 3 question marks in Jose, Jon and now El Duque.

 

Oh, really? Early 2004 rested upon the shoulders of Jon Garland, Danny Wright, and Scott Schoeneweis. If that isn't a prime example of three quesiton marks, I don't know what is.

 

Vazquez's price [in terms of talent, salary] is falling. "Losing" Marte and adding Vazquez wouldn't sink the sox. It would improve it. Marte is less valuable now than he was at the start of 2004 for one big reason--he's now proven he isn't a closer. Getting a #1, #2 SP for a set up man [even as good as the 2002, 2003 Marte], is a good trade.

 

Let's assume sufficient funds were available to acquire Vazquez. Best case scenario; Vazquez is offered for 8mil/yr. In addition, let's assume an offer of Garland/Marte is presented to NYY. Would the Sox not be in a better position to sign Eckstein, keep prementioned players, and enter next season with their current team intact?

 

Is Vazquez > Garland/Marte/Eckstein?

[Texsox]

Oh, really?  Early 2004 rested upon the shoulders of Jon Garland, Danny Wright, and Scott Schoeneweis. If that isn't a prime example of three quesiton marks, I don't know what is. 

I would prefer to never enter a season with those kinds of questions ever again.

[beck72]

Oh, really?  Early 2004 rested upon the shoulders of Jon Garland, Danny Wright, and Scott Schoneweis. If that isn't a prime example of three quesiton marks, I don't know what is. 

 

Let's assume sufficient funds were available to acquire Vazquez. Best case scenario; Vazquez is offered for 8mil/yr. In addition, let's assume an offer of Garland/Marte is presented to NYY. Would the Sox not be in a better position to sign Eckstein, keep prementioned players, and enter next season with their current team intact?

 

Is Vazquez > Garland/Marte/Eckstein?

Let's say the 2005 Sox [with Ozzie adamant about having solid SP] will prob. have learned from their mistakes. Going w/ 3 question marks in the rotation [though better than 2004] prob. is a stretch. Jon is most likely the one to go if Vazquez can be acquired.

 

Marte going into 2005 isn't as valuable as he was entering 2004. He proved last yr he isn't a closer. He might also have proven himself to be a LOGGY. Maybe not. But an untradeable set up guy is lights out vs RHP and LHP. Marte is lights out vs LHP. Not vs RHP. I'm going by Ozzie's comments last yr, to the effect that: 'I haven't met the 2003 Marte'. Doesn't sound like an untradeable in my book.

 

The bullpen can deal w/ the loss of MArte, with Vizcaino and Hermanson added. Both can get LHP and RHP hitters out. Ozzie likes guys who can pitch to more than one inning, and to both sides of the plate.

 

Cora could be added, cheaper and a better fit than Eckstein. Garland could be traded [not to NY to get Vazquez] for a good return to a team looking for SP toward ST.

[Flash Tizzle]

Let's say the 2005 Sox [with Ozzie adamant about having solid SP] will prob. have learned from their mistakes. Going w/ 3 question marks in the rotation [though better than 2004] prob. is a stretch. Jon is most likely the one to go if Vazquez can be acquired.

This is a rookie mistake from Guillen. He'll learn to avoid dictating the moves of management. Reinsdorf/Williams would rather Guillen shamelessly promote Grilli than state an extra starting pitcher is needed.

 

Marte going into 2005 isn't as valuable as he was entering 2004. He proved last yr he isn't a closer. He might also have proven himself to be a LOGGY. Maybe not. But an untradeable set up guy is lights out vs RHP and LHP. Marte is lights out vs LHP. Not vs RHP. I'm going by Ozzie's comments last yr, to the effect that: 'I haven't met the 2003 Marte'. Doesn't sound like an untradeable in my book.

 

Guillen was supporting Koch until his eventual trade. Guillen claimed Grili "trow the ball real well" following every start. I don't place much creedence in anything he says, especially concerning Marte's talent. Williams likely sold Guillen on Marte's utter dominance, and when he struggled Guillen felt more was expected. There were other players more deserving of criticsm. I wish Guillen would question Borchord's unharnessed potential, or Crede's swing.

 

Cora could be added, cheaper and a better fit than Eckstein. Garland could be traded [not to NY to get Vazquez] for a good return to a team looking for SP toward ST.

 

Wait. If Garland isn't included in a trade for Vazquez, who is? Marte, by himself? I'll trust his value has yet to sink that far.

[beck72]

This is a rookie mistake from Guillen.  He'll learn to avoid dictating the moves of management.  Reinsdorf/Williams would rather Guillen shamelessly promote Grilli than state an extra starting pitcher is needed. 

 

 

 

Guillen was supporting Koch until his eventual trade. Guillen claimed Grili "trow the ball real well" following every start. I don't place much creedence in anything he says, especially concerning Marte's talent.  Williams likely sold Guillen on Marte's utter dominance, and when he struggled Guillen felt more was expected.  There were other players more deserving of criticsm.  I wish Guillen would question Borchord's unharnessed potential, or Crede's swing.

 

 

 

Wait.  If Garland isn't included in a trade for Vazquez, who is? Marte, by himself? I'll trust his value has yet to sink that far.

Guillen went with the players he had available to him at the start of 2004. He said he believed it when "they" [didn't name names] told him he had the talent to win in 2004. Guillen went w/ Wright and SS based on their solid springs. No rookie mistake there. But it was KW who had to have other guys around in case they didn't work out. Which he didn't

 

Guillen has been decent in evaluating talent and performance [Adkins, Cotts in the pen, keeping Gload, bringing up Burke when he was hitting .220 in AAA; getting Valdez a serviceable UTL guy for Koch--who BTW was not losing games or blowing saves, then was let go after he blew 2 in a row]. And Guillen has been critical of guys like JOe B, Crede, Garland. If Ozzie is one thing, he isn't a tool for mgmt who says all the right things.

 

As far as who could be traded for Vazquez? Who knows? Marte + prospects could work. The yanks have no depth in the minors and Vazquez is one of the few chips they have. I'm saying Garland just to NY won't happen-they don't need him or want him. Marte could work in NY. Marte is a top set up guy--a guy who is valuable. For a team like NYY where money is no object, filling a big hole [which they do have in the pen from the LH side] they may overpay a little.

[YASNY]

Guillen went with the players he had available to him at the start of 2004. He said he believed it when "they" [didn't name names] told him he had the talent to win in 2004. Guillen went w/ Wright and SS based on their solid springs. No rookie mistake there. But it was KW who had to have other guys around in case they didn't work out. Which he didn't

 

Guillen has been decent in evaluating talent and performance [Adkins, Cotts in the pen, keeping Gload, bringing up Burke when he was hitting .220 in AAA; getting Valdez a serviceable UTL guy for Koch--who BTW was not losing games or blowing saves, then was let go after he blew 2 in a row]. And Guillen has been critical of guys like JOe B, Crede, Garland. If Ozzie is one thing, he isn't a tool for mgmt who says all the right things.

 

As far as who could be traded for Vazquez? Who knows? Marte + prospects could work. The yanks have no depth in the minors and Vazquez is one of the few chips they have. I'm saying Garland just to NY won't happen-they don't need him or want him. Marte could work in NY. Marte is a top set up guy--a guy who is valuable. For a team like NYY where money is no object, filling a big hole [which they do have in the pen from the LH side] they may overpay a little.

Wait a minute Beck. I have to call you on thing. SS had an absolutely horrid spring.

[southsideirish71]

For an organization handcuffed with payroll limitations, why the hell would Reinsdorf shoulder Vazquez's salary?  NY eating an extremely reasonable amount of 10 million still leaves White Sox paying Vazquez 8mil/yr.  We don't have these funds lying around.  Teams witholding an extra 10+ million don't lowball arbitration eligble players (Schoeneweis/Davis) to save $500,000. 

 

If Vazquez killed this deal by refusing an LA trade, his stock steadilly fall  From quotes posted in the Daily Southtown, Yankee's President Randy Levine openly questioned DePodesta for unprofessionaly backing out of the deal.  Doesn't appear as if Steinbrenner has JV pegged as official scapegoat; yet.   

 

Garland/prospect is the most i'd offer for Vazquez. Not reasonable, but our rotation is complete. Sox lose nothing if trade discussions fall through. In any trade talks concerning Vazquez, there should be absolutely no scenario in which Marte is included. Sox desperately need a strong bullpen with potential health risk Orlando Hernandez joining the rotation.  Statements such as "bullpen absorbs loss of Marte" are no longer reasonable.  If Perez were signed in place of El Duque, yes, maybe Marte's departure would be less damaging. Not as our rotations currently stands.

Flash I am kinda tossed up about losing Marte. On one hand it depends on the Marte we are losing.

 

Is it the world beater in 2003 with the electric stuff or is it the guy in 2004 who couldnt locate his fastball because he wasnt following through on his release.

 

Marte's issues from last year are very very fixable. But it depends on how we are using Marte on our team.

If we are using him as a closer or primary setup guy lets keep him.

 

Marte(setup guy/closer) with learning how to follow through again > issues garland will impose in our rotation

 

If we are only using him as a lefty specialist we can find another one of those so trade him and get a legit top of the rotation guy. Visquiano's(I know I cant spell)'s splits against lefties are pretty good. We bring in another lefty with a good breaking pitch to be a situational lefty.

 

Marte as a situation lefty

[beck72]

Wait a minute Beck.  I have to call you on thing.  SS had an absolutely horrid spring.

At least of the options available, SS was the only one who made sense. He was a vet w/ some experience. Wright actually threw like the 4th SP. But my point was, it wasn't up to Guillen who he had to choose from in ST. It was KW's job to get guys in [and I know Robert Person going down was key ]

[beck72]

Flash I am kinda tossed up about losing Marte.  On one hand it depends on the Marte we are losing.

 

Is it the world beater in 2003 with the electric stuff or is it the guy in 2004 who couldnt locate his fastball because he wasnt following through on his release. 

 

Marte's issues from last year are very very fixable. But it depends on how we are using Marte on our team.

If we are using him as a closer or primary setup guy lets keep him.

 

Marte(setup guy/closer) with learning how to follow through again > issues garland will impose in our rotation

 

If we are only using him as a lefty specialist we can find another one of those so trade him and get a legit top of the rotation guy.  Visquiano's(I know I cant spell)'s splits against lefties are pretty good.  We bring in another lefty with a good breaking pitch to be a situational lefty.

 

Marte as a situation lefty 

One thing is for sure--Marte isn't a closer. After two seasons he's had tryouts in that role. And has been Billy Koch like bad. With Vizcaino and Hermanson w/ experience as closers in case Shingo gets hurt/ is horrible, Marte is a 4th or 5th choice. That makes him more expendable than a set up guy who can or could close.

[Chisoxfn]

Well the LA radio stations are playing it a little different. At least Xtra sports 690 is. I woke up this morning and they were talking about the trade breaking up and said it broke off because Vazquez was unwilling to go to the White Sox, the 4th team of the deal.

 

Of course that woke my ass up and I turned in ESPN and other places and never heard this mentioned anywhere else.

[YASNY]

Well the LA radio stations are playing it a little different.  At least Xtra sports 690 is.  I woke up this morning and they were talking about the trade breaking up and said it broke off because Vazquez was unwilling to go to the White Sox, the 4th team of the deal.

 

Of course that woke my ass up and I turned in ESPN and other places and never heard this mentioned anywhere else.

LA Spin. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Chisoxfn]

Now that I think about it, maybe Depodesta knowing he could keep Vazquez tried and tried to get the Sox involved and they couldn't work out a deal.

 

Thats probably more likely.

[YASNY]

Now that I think about it, maybe Depodesta knowing he could keep Vazquez tried and tried to get the Sox involved and they couldn't work out a deal. 

 

Thats probably more likely.

I just know that I read all over the internet that Vazquez did not want to go to LA. I never saw anything about him not wanting to go to the Sox.

[Chisoxfn]

I just know that I read all over the internet that Vazquez did not want to go to LA.  I never saw anything about him not wanting to go to the Sox.

I figured it was spin but was going to post it and see if it was said anywhere else. Now you've told me Yas, haha.

 

I still say Sox could get involved. I just hope the price tag has dropped now that both teams may get a little more antsy to get a deal done.

[YASNY]

I figured it was spin but was going to post it and see if it was said anywhere else.  Now you've told me Yas, haha.

 

I still say Sox could get involved.  I just hope the price tag has dropped now that both teams may get a little more antsy to get a deal done.

Steinbrenner has been thwarted 3 times in his attempts to acquire Johnson. This is a matter of getting the balance of power back from the Red Sox. Damn right he's anxious to get this done. It may cost the Sox in players, in order to get the right package for Arizona, but George should be willing to throw a bunch of cash to the Sox, along with Javy, to make it happen.

[Chisoxfn]

Ok that was exactly the case. Heard it on both of the LA radio stations now.

 

The Dodgers found out Vazquez wouldn't come to LA. They then contacted Ken Williams and tried to swing the 4th team but were unable to reach an agreement.

 

Makes sense too. Considering what the Dodgers were giving up I'm sure there demands were quite high. However, I think with the Dodgers now out of it, the odds of the Sox getting Vazquez are quite high.

[YASNY]

Ok that was exactly the case.  Heard it on both of the LA radio stations now. 

 

The Dodgers found out Vazquez wouldn't come to LA.  They then contacted Ken Williams and tried to swing the 4th team but were unable to reach an agreement.

 

Makes sense too.  Considering what the Dodgers were giving up I'm sure there demands were quite high.  However, I think with the Dodgers now out of it, the odds of the Sox getting Vazquez are quite high.

KW can probably get Vazquez from the Yankees for a lot less than he'd get him from the Dodgers. The Dodgers were getting reamed in that deal and were trying to save face at the expense of the Sox.

[beck72]

KW can probably get Vazquez from the Yankees for a lot less than he'd get him from the Dodgers.  The Dodgers were getting reamed in that deal and were trying to save face at the expense of the Sox.

Well put. Getting a guy like El Duque makes the Sox deal from a position of strength. Plus, the don't "have" to deal for Vazquez [even though they need to]

[upnorthsox]

Well put. Getting a guy like El Duque makes the Sox deal from a position of strength. Plus, the don't "have" to deal for Vazquez [even though they need to]

I agree with that and it makes perfect sense, it's just the 2yr?$8+ mil is way TFM.

[captain video]

I agree that 2 yr 8+ million is a lot, but, as it is with all trades and signings only time will tell. Better to get him than spen 8+ million per year for a guy like Clement. IMHO, signing El Duque isn't all that bad. My guess is that we deal for Vazquez, moving Garland out and Hernandez becomes our 5th starter. We then sign Eckstein (2B) and AJ© and go to spring training. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Crede go in one of these deals -- KW had some interest in Hinske in the past. Toronto needs to move Hinske which could be to our advantage.

[Nokona]

Maybe we send El Duque back to NY, he sure loves it there

[Rex Kickass]

Steinbrenner has been thwarted 3 times in his attempts to acquire Johnson.  This is a matter of getting the balance of power back from the Red Sox.  Damn right he's anxious to get this done.  It may cost the Sox in players, in order to get the right package for Arizona, but George should be willing to throw a bunch of cash to the Sox, along with Javy, to make it happen.

I don't think the Sox would be involved in a four way trade for RJ unless the deal involved getting a lot for very little. Why would KW help the Yankees get RJ in the AL? Wow, that was a lot of initials for one sentence.

 

One of the theories that I've heard of about this trade falling through has everything to do with the Sox. The Dodgers wanted to get some power through another trade in order to give up what they were giving to Arizona so that the RJ trade could be facilitated. This involved a Vaz for PK trade. KW said N-O to PK for VAZ with LA. Since LA couldn't get all the players it wanted to make up for what it loses in the RJ 3 way.