TeeBall 5th starter

[southsideirish71]

Yeah, but I think we brought him up in a bad situation. Our season was really already on the brink there and there was a lot of undue pressure that could conceivably screw with a young guy's head? Especially when he's being sent in and out of Charlotte?

 

Just askin

He would of stayed up if he pitched anything remotely like he did in char. Everyone talks about how quickly we sent these guys down. How many starts of watching a guy get bombed can the fans put up with. There are a long laundry list of guys who had all the talent in the world but didnt have the sack to stay up here. Diaz dominated in AAA but then got up here and started to do everything he cant afford to do. He nibbled and got behind and then had to come with his 88mph straight as an arrow fastball and got hit. It happens, Neil Cotts is another person that had the same issue. Kip Wells had a season where he would look lights out in the pen but when he would start would lose it. Garland has the tools to be a number 3 in the league. But he cannot get over mistakes or his own caused mistakes. Buerhle came up from AA, and impressed from day one. Why, because he is a gamer. He doesnt have all the physical skills but he has heart and guts. That is what makes him a stud.

[Rex Kickass]

But not everyone is Mark Buehrle. Mark Buehrle also gets rocked on occasion too but when we he goes on a two or three game losing streak in the middle of the season, you aren't calling for him to be sent down to Charlotte... but there were a few times this year where his pitching looked very Triple AAA to me too.

 

I don't have a lot of experience watching Diaz pitch. I don't think there's a higher pressure situation for a rookie than starting against the Cubs at home - at least not on our team last year... and he blew away my expectations. He didn't just keep us in the game, he won the game. Big deal to me, anyways.

[Rowand44]

SO your saying JR and the board is telling KW to trade away our talent to rent a player for a year?

 

Who here would love to say that our #3 starter is Kip Wells??  Then we would be worriing about other issues here

 

KW is not OK.. KW is the reason we have this problem, but enough about that

Kip Wells would be our 5th starter.

[southsideirish71]

But not everyone is Mark Buehrle. Mark Buehrle also gets rocked on occasion too but when we he goes on a two or three game losing streak in the middle of the season, you aren't calling for him to be sent down to Charlotte... but there were a few times this year where his pitching looked very Triple AAA to me too.

 

I don't have a lot of experience watching Diaz pitch. I don't think there's a higher pressure situation for a rookie than starting against the Cubs at home - at least not on our team last year... and he blew away my expectations. He didn't just keep us in the game, he won the game. Big deal to me, anyways.

If Mark Buehrle came up and got bombed everytime he started and then had one good start and then got bombed in the next series of starts, he would be lumped in the same fashion. But he didnt. Yes all pitchers go into funks. But you are basing your thoughts on one start against an NL team. I base this on starts against teams in our division the ones that count.

[CWSGuy406]

Jeckle, seriously, do you ever think of things when you post them? Cuz usually thats why you are blasted...

What's the problem?

 

I don't agree with Jeckle lots of times, but he's right.

 

He was put in a positioin to fail. First time he pitches, it's on eight days rest. Second time he pitches, it's on three days rest. They never really gave Diaz a shot to hold that fifth starter's spot -- meaning, give him a string of consecutive starts, five, six, seven in a row. Obviously, the first couple of starts might be a little jittery, but I honestly feel that Diaz has a shot to be a good starter.

 

You don't just lose control, which is what happened to Diaz. He had absolutely awesome control at AAA, and he lost it at Chicago. That doesn't happen. I attribute that to jitters, nervousness, whatever you want to call it.

 

BTW - Diaz has three pitches; slider, changeup, and a fastball. When he uses his fastball effectively (as he did against the Cubs, pitching up and in, and then using his down-and-away slider as his out pitch), he pitches well. When he doesn't, he gets bombed.

[CWSGuy406]

If Mark Buehrle came up and got bombed  everytime he started and then had one good start and then got bombed in the next series of starts, he would be lumped in the same fashion.  But he didnt.  Yes all pitchers go into funks.  But you are basing your thoughts on one start against an NL team.  I base this on starts against teams in our division the ones that count.

Diaz had seven starts this year -- seven. In May, he pitched twice for the Sox -- one time on eight days rest, one time on three days rest. If you want to base your judgement upon that, go ahead, but I surely won't...

 

So, Felix is sent down, and called up a month later, to pitch in the biggest game of his major league career, in front of a packed house at the Cell, against the Cubbies. Not only does he pitch well, he pitches very good, going six innings, allowing three runs. Awesome job, and we see the real Felix, as he only allows one walk over the six.

 

Diaz starts once more the next week, against the same team, in the same pressure-cooked situation, this time at the pisshole up north. Diaz doesn't pitch very well, going four, allowing three runs -- still better than any s*** we've seen from Grilli (not saying that you're defending Grilli).

 

So, once again, Diaz is sent back down to Charlotte, only to come back up again in August, pitch poorly against Cleveland.

 

And then, something clicks in Felix. August 31st is the date (a game I attended). Diaz gets rocked early, giving up six runs in the first two innings. And then, (at least in my eyes), something changed in him. He looked, after those first two innings, like he started pitching with a swagger, Pedro Martinez-like. He started pounding hitters up and in, and then getting them to chase some really bad pitches down and away.

 

September, Diaz pitches dominantly, going 16+ innings, allowing just four runs.

 

 

My point being -- Diaz isn't as bad as you guys make him out to be. God forbid we don't acquire another starter before April -- but if that happens, I want the ball in Diaz' hand, definitely.

[southsideirish71]

What's the problem?

 

I don't agree with Jeckle lots of times, but he's right.

 

He was put in a positioin to fail.  First time he pitches, it's on eight days rest.  Second time he pitches, it's on three days rest.  They never really gave Diaz a shot to hold that fifth starter's spot -- meaning, give him a string of consecutive starts, five, six, seven in a row.  Obviously, the first couple of starts might be a little jittery, but I honestly feel that Diaz has a shot to be a good starter.

 

You don't just lose control, which is what happened to Diaz.  He had absolutely awesome control at AAA, and he lost it at Chicago.  That doesn't happen.  I attribute that to jitters, nervousness, whatever you want to call it.

 

BTW - Diaz has three pitches; slider, changeup, and a fastball.  When he uses his fastball effectively (as he did against the Cubs, pitching up and in, and then using his down-and-away slider as his out pitch), he pitches well.  When he doesn't, he gets bombed.

The whole give the guy a chance is a great idea. But at that time we were fighting for first place. He had a series of starts were he was going less than 4 innings and giving up a good amount of runs. The loss withstanding we also had a large impact to the pen which sets up other issues for the games following. So we give Diaz or whatever 5th starter a chance say for 5-7 starts. Say its a failure and he goes 4 innings or less and gives up 6 runs or more. Now you have your relief crew streched for that period and they are overused for games that we might need a fresh starter. Our bullpen wasnt an exact strenght at that point. Its a great utopia were we give a guy a chance. But there is more impact than just the W-L record in those games.

[southsideirish71]

Diaz had seven starts this year -- seven.  In May, he pitched twice for the Sox -- one time on eight days rest, one time on three days rest.  If you want to base your judgement upon that, go ahead, but I surely won't...

 

So, Felix is sent down, and called up a month later, to pitch in the biggest game of his major league career, in front of a packed house at the Cell, against the Cubbies.  Not only does he pitch well, he pitches very good, going six innings, allowing three runs.  Awesome job, and we see the real Felix, as he only allows one walk over the six.

 

Diaz starts once more the next week, against the same team, in the same pressure-cooked situation, this time at the pisshole up north.  Diaz doesn't pitch very well, going four, allowing three runs -- still better than any s*** we've seen from Grilli (not saying that you're defending Grilli).

 

So, once again, Diaz is sent back down to Charlotte, only to come back up again in August, pitch poorly against Cleveland.

 

And then, something clicks in Felix.  August 31st is the date (a game I attended).  Diaz gets rocked early, giving up six runs in the first two innings.  And then, (at least in my eyes), something changed in him.  He looked, after those first two innings, like he started pitching with a swagger, Pedro Martinez-like.  He started pounding hitters up and in, and then getting them to chase some really bad pitches down and away.

 

September, Diaz pitches dominantly, going 16+ innings, allowing just four runs. 

 

 

My point being -- Diaz isn't as bad as you guys make him out to be.  God forbid we don't acquire another starter before April -- but if that happens, I want the ball in Diaz' hand, definitely.

And to play devils advocate to your argument. Maybe what changes is that he is in the relief role. When you start you have all that time to prepare and deal with the mental part of the game. When you relieve you get call and you have probably 5 minutes to think about it before you are in the game. Maybe he performed better because the mental part of the game was removed. No one is questioning his talent, but sometimes it takes guys a bit to get into the mental aspect of the game.

[hi8is]

we need to sign a fifth starter?

 

with all the overwheming evidence over the last 3 years?

 

and all the intrest in starting pitching over the last 8 months?

 

 

NAWWWW f*** it, let my little 8 year old brother do it, at least it will be a crowd pleaser

[AnthraxFan93]

Kip Wells would be our 5th starter.

 

How do you figure that? Wells was on the rise before getting injuried in 04, lowering his ERA almost a full point from 01-03...

[Rex Kickass]

The whole give the guy a chance is a great idea.  But at that time we were fighting for first place.  He had a series of starts were he was going less than 4 innings and giving up a good amount of runs.  The loss withstanding we also had a large impact to the pen which sets up other issues for the games following.  So we give Diaz or whatever 5th starter a chance say for 5-7 starts.  Say its a failure and he goes 4 innings or less and gives up 6 runs or more.  Now you have your relief crew streched for that period and they are overused for games that we might need a fresh starter.  Our bullpen wasnt an exact strenght at that point.    Its a great utopia were we give a guy a chance.  But there is more impact than just the W-L record in those games.

Well, that's the point. We don't have a season on the brink anymore. If we have four pitchers that the team has reasonable confidence in to produce, why can't we use the fifth spot to grow ONE pitcher. Diaz proved that he isn't going to lose every game he throws - and it's not an automatic loss with him at the mound. If the Sox want to grow and dominate every year, its not enough to get the big players for a year or two, we need to homegrow some talent too, which would include taking some of our better AAA pitchers and bringing them along for quite a bit of the season.

[Rowand44]

 

How do you figure that? Wells was on the rise before getting injuried in 04, lowering his ERA almost a full point from 01-03...

Kip definitely had 2 very solid years, right after he moved from the al to the nl. He sucked last year and I for one am positive if he was still here his era would be in the high 4's if not 5. Jon is a better pitcher then Kip, no doubt in my mind.

[AnthraxFan93]

Kip definitely had 2 very solid years, right after he moved from the al to the nl.  He sucked last year and I for one am positive if he was still here his era would be in the high 4's if not 5.  Jon is a better pitcher then Kip, no doubt in my mind.

And how many Soild years has Jon had??

[Rowand44]

And how many Soild years has Jon had?? 

I would say, Jon's last 3 years have been solid, he's just not the dominate pitcher everyone expected him to be, now if he got moved to the Nl, I think he would be pretty dominate, jmo.

[quickman]

What's the problem?

 

I don't agree with Jeckle lots of times, but he's right.

 

He was put in a positioin to fail.  First time he pitches, it's on eight days rest.  Second time he pitches, it's on three days rest.  They never really gave Diaz a shot to hold that fifth starter's spot -- meaning, give him a string of consecutive starts, five, six, seven in a row.  Obviously, the first couple of starts might be a little jittery, but I honestly feel that Diaz has a shot to be a good starter.

 

You don't just lose control, which is what happened to Diaz.  He had absolutely awesome control at AAA, and he lost it at Chicago.  That doesn't happen.  I attribute that to jitters, nervousness, whatever you want to call it.

 

BTW - Diaz has three pitches; slider, changeup, and a fastball.  When he uses his fastball effectively (as he did against the Cubs, pitching up and in, and then using his down-and-away slider as his out pitch), he pitches well.  When he doesn't, he gets bombed.

I realize he has more htan one pitch, I am not dumb. he obviously has a difficult time getting three over the plate, which makes him rely on his fast ball, which everyone will catch up to by the 4th inning. Point is, you cna hang around and baby these gems in our s***ty farm system, or you can go out and get a veteran to be your fifth starter. Good teams either have blue chip rookies or they get veterans. Simple as that.

[Rex Kickass]

And we have neither. So lets not bother doing the best with what we have. We're obviously f***ed anyway.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Well, that's the point. We don't have a season on the brink anymore. If we have four pitchers that the team has reasonable confidence in to produce, why can't we use the fifth spot to grow ONE pitcher. Diaz proved that he isn't going to lose every game he throws - and it's not an automatic loss with him at the mound. If the Sox want to grow and dominate every year, its not enough to get the big players for a year or two, we need to homegrow some talent too, which would include taking some of our better AAA pitchers and bringing them along for quite a bit of the season.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

What about Black Jack McDowell?

What about him? This aint 1993 ya know.

 

:rolly

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Wasn't Diaz the one who outpitched Zambrano against the Cubs at the Cell last year?

 

I liked his stuff a lot the one time I saw him - but when you're pitching on the 5th starter wheel like we've had for the last two years, how is anyone going to succeed?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. This guy is nowhere near ready to start on a MLB club.

[Sanjay2000]

We should try to lock up Jon Garland to a long term deal. I think a five year, 25 million dollar deal would be just in line for him. That way, if he ever becomes really good, he would be a great bargain for multiple years. At the same time, even if he doesn't improve, he still is a very fine pitcher and should average out to at least a 4.5 era every year, even if he never gets better. And if he was in the NL, i bet he would be a jon lieber type and post about 3.8 eras...just a thought

[Guest JimH]

Garland has a lot to prove, both to himself and the White Sox. Sox have shown they will not go beyond 3 years for a pitcher guaranteed ... generally speaking that's smart.

[Sanjay2000]

Diaz definitely isn't ready yet...he needs at least two more years of seasoning in the minors...there is no point in bringing up pitchers who aren't ready yet...all that happens is that they get pounded during their 300,000 years and by the time they get good, the are arbitration eligible and get very expensive...this is exactly the mistake the white sox made with jon garland...now that hes getting good, hes very very close to free agency

[Sanjay2000]

Garland has a lot to prove, both to himself and the White Sox.  Sox have shown they will not go beyond 3 years for a pitcher guaranteed ... generally speaking that's smart.

I agree. Garland does have a lot to prove but maybe thats because we expect way too much out of him. He is NOT a number one starter. People expect him to be an ace and win 20 games a year. He might do so in the future but we need to be reasonable for garland...reasonable means maybe a 15-8 record with a 3.85 era...even mark mulder had a 4.34 era last year and hes considered one of the best pitchers in baseball so i think in time, garland will get there...

[Rowand44]

Diaz definitely isn't ready yet...he needs at least two more years of seasoning in the minors...there is no point in bringing up pitchers who aren't ready yet...all that happens is that they get pounded during their 300,000 years and by the time they get good, the are arbitration eligible and get very expensive...this is exactly the mistake the white sox made with jon garland...now that hes getting good, hes very very close to free agency

Felix is as ready as he's going to get. It's all up to him now to prove what he can do.

[SoxAce]

Diaz definitely isn't ready yet...he needs at least two more years of seasoning in the minors...there is no point in bringing up pitchers who aren't ready yet...all that happens is that they get pounded during their 300,000 years and by the time they get good, the are arbitration eligible and get very expensive...this is exactly the mistake the white sox made with jon garland...now that hes getting good, hes very very close to free agency

WTF? This guy absoultely was lights out in the minors. He is ready for the show. The sox just rushed him too much on 8 days rest, then on 3 days. You can't do that to a young starter. He was stellar in the pen but horrible at starting except on a couple occasions. This kid will be good.