The Critic Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg231.html Pretty much sums up my opinion of Kenny Williams. I like KW, but I think he's hamstrung by the purse strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox2334 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 wow figures suntimes put negative spin on el duque. I forgot grilli was good with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Couch forgets to mention which "stars" the sox should have signed this offseason and have gone to other teams. All in all, Pods, Vizcaino, El Duque and a PTBNL for Lee is a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox2334 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 hey can someone post pics of viscaino, hermanson, and dye in whitesox cap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelatinoheat_30 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 i heard levine on AM1000 commenting on this from the article: The only thing is, the people cutting off Williams' arms are his own bosses. The Sox have 2 million fans, an unbelievable stadium deal, a great radio deal, ownership in a TV station, a city full of corporate sponsorship possibilities, an immensely successful and savvy owner in Reinsdorf. But we've complained about Reinsdorf before. He might own a bigger chunk of the team than anyone else, but supposedly that's not more than 10 percent. When the Sox fail, it's not just him, but these other guys, too. And they need to put pressure on Reinsdorf to win, not just to make money. Or maybe Reinsdorf needs to pressure them for more money. However it works, when the Sox fail, the silent partners shouldn't be able to just sit back quietly collecting the profits. Fred Brzozowski, Eddie Einhorn, Robert Judelson, Judd Malkin, Robert Mazer, Allan Munchin, Jay Pinsky, Larry Pogofsky, Lee Stern, Sanford Takiff, Burton Ury, Charles Walsh. Brothers, can you spare a dime? levine said this is not true, that reinsdorf has most of the power. also said that sox fans won't come out till we win, which we already knew. said some other stuff that i forgot, maybe someone can help me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 CWS pros: -2M stadium fans -unbelievable stadium deal -great radio deal -ownership in a TV station (COMCAST Sportsnet) -city full of corporate sponsorship possibilities (US Cellular deal) -an immensely successful and savvy owner in Reinsdorf The same questions come to mind again: -How much does the CWS make on parking? -How much does the CWS make on concessions? -How much does the CWS make on club/luxury boxes? That's always been the question mark about this team since the Cell was created. We know they increased revenue substantially from these 3 venues with the new ballpark. We also know they have the lowest rent cost for a publicly financed stadium in MLB. It's zero unless they draw 2M+. Oddly enough they draw just less than that every year. In other words when you add all those pros up some believe that the 2M fans at the Cell are equal in value to about 2.5M fans at say Comerica Park. When you think of it that way suddenly the SOX are in the upper half of revenue in MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 CWS pros: -2M stadium fans -unbelievable stadium deal -great radio deal -ownership in a TV station (COMCAST Sportsnet) -city full of corporate sponsorship possibilities (US Cellular deal) -an immensely successful and savvy owner in Reinsdorf The same questions come to mind again: -How much does the CWS make on parking? -How much does the CWS make on concessions? -How much does the CWS make on club/luxury boxes? That's always been the question mark about this team since the Cell was created. We know they increased revenue substantially from these 3 venues with the new ballpark. We also know they have the lowest rent cost for a publicly financed stadium in MLB. It's zero unless they draw 2M+. Oddly enough they draw just less than that every year. In other words when you add all those pros up some believe that the 2M fans at the Cell are equal in value to about 2.5M fans at say Comerica Park. When you think of it that way suddenly the SOX are in the upper half of revenue in MLB. Good post, and the 2m fans thing could go up in my opinion, because if this team wins you will get more than 2m with the fair weather fans.... My biggest gripe has been the Comcast deal... this is barely ever mentioned in the media... the Sox and Cubs should expect to see extremely good profits from this, but unlike the Cubs the Sox aren't one arm of a corporate entity, and it's easier for them to spend their profits... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 The same questions come to mind again: -How much does the CWS make on parking? I believe it's 40% -How much does the CWS make on concessions? That's usually a set contract based on crowd estimates but considering the typical Sox fan I wouldn't rule out a separate % of beer sales. -How much does the CWS make on club/luxury boxes? All they can, but less than JR originally thought he would. But if you want to guestimate, they rent for about $1000 a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 The same questions come to mind again: -How much does the CWS make on parking? I believe it's 40% -How much does the CWS make on concessions? That's usually a set contract based on crowd estimates but considering the typical Sox fan I wouldn't rule out a separate % of beer sales. -How much does the CWS make on club/luxury boxes? All they can, but less than JR originally thought he would. But if you want to guestimate, they rent for about $1000 a game. I think the Angels are a good model of what can be done... Moreno came in and started spending money that the team probably didn't have on the books... in a 2 team town you have to create a huge splash sometimes... Look, I think the Mets overpaid Pedro, obviously, but I think they are going to get atleast 2 good years out of him, and it was the talk of the sportsworld for 3-4 days. Chicago area has a ton of money, the Sox are missing out on a lot of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Why do people think the White Sox have a ton of money? It has been proven over and over that they pretty much plow the previous gains into the teams the next season. Look at the Forbes numbers. The Sox are not making much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Why do people think the White Sox have a ton of money? It has been proven over and over that they pretty much plow the previous gains into the teams the next season. Look at the Forbes numbers. The Sox are not making much money. They still have one of the top 5 TV/Radio contracts in the MLB and it just got better. They may only draw 2 mil but they're in the top 10 in prices so they do better than most. I've seen no proof even once let alone over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 http://www.forbes.com/business/2004/04/08/...seballland.html Ranked in terms of revenue: rev(millions), franchise val (millions) 01-NYY 238, 832 02-BOS 190, 533 03-SEA 169, 396 04-NYM 158, 442 05-CHC 156, 358 06-ATL 156, 374 07-LAD 154, 399 08-SFG 153, 368 09-STL 131, 314 10-BAL 129, 296 11-HOU 128, 320 12-TEX 127, 306 13-CLE 127, 292 14-ANA 127, 241 15-DET 127, 241 16-ARZ 126, 276 17-COL 124, 285 18-CWS 124, 248 19-CIN 123, 245 20-PIT 117, 235 21-PHI 115, 281 22-OAK 110, 186 23-SDP 106, 265 24-MIL 102, 174 25-FLA 101, 172 26-TAM 101, 152 27-TOR 99, 169 28-MIN 99, 168 29-KCR 98, 171 30-WAS 81, 145 Whether you rank it in terms of fran val or rev the CWS was 18th in 2003. Far ahead of MIN, KCR, but behind CLE & DET. This pre-dates COMCAST Sportsnet. That's expected to bring in a few mil for the team which would place them in the top 15. If they could just draw another 250K fans they would be in the top 10 in rev. The franchise value will probably always fall betw 15-20 because the team does not have even 1% ownership of the Cell. Yet still it's franchise val is in the mid 200 million range because it plays in the Chicago market & it's history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Honestly, that is easily one of the worst articles I've ever read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 I think the Angels are a good model of what can be done... Moreno came in and started spending money that the team probably didn't have on the books... in a 2 team town you have to create a huge splash sometimes... Look, I think the Mets overpaid Pedro, obviously, but I think they are going to get atleast 2 good years out of him, and it was the talk of the sportsworld for 3-4 days. Chicago area has a ton of money, the Sox are missing out on a lot of it... Remember, the Angel fans came out of the woodwork when they made the playoffs the year before. Then they weren't quite as good the following year with the Angels but the fans had bought all the seats up since they were defending world series champs. Moreno then took over and carried this new momentum and upped payroll to keep Angel fans excited and it worked. They should draw 3 million again, especially if the team plays really good and it looks like the AL West will come between them and Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Let's not forget the Angels spent the $ AFTER they won the World Series. If I'm not mistaken they won the WS with a payroll under 80M. I'm quite certain the CWS would do exactly the same thing if they won the World Series. You can do that because suddenly the season ticket sales go through the roof. That's entirely different than game day sales that make up the bulk of the 2M fans now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 They still have one of the top 5 TV/Radio contracts in the MLB and it just got better. They may only draw 2 mil but they're in the top 10 in prices so they do better than most. I've seen no proof even once let alone over and over. I have read the Forbes review of the MLB teams. Total revenue, is total revenue to the team. It includes all of that stuff. http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0428/mlb_18.html According to the 2004 charts, which are based on the 2003 season (the most recent available) they had an operating income of a whopping $1.2 million as a team, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 I have read the Forbes review of the MLB teams. Total revenue, is total revenue to the team. It includes all of that stuff. http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0428/mlb_18.html According to the 2004 charts, which are based on the 2003 season (the most recent available) they had an operating income of a whopping $1.2 million as a team, Funny, right here they have an operating income of $12.8 mil http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html That's 2nd highest in the majors with only Seattle having more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Funny, right here they have an operating income of $12.8 mil http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html That's 2nd highest in the majors with only Seattle having more. I grabbed the wrong set of numbers... What you posted was indeed the 2004, based on the end of 2003. They did have $12.8 million in operating income. Now, guess how much the payroll went up for 2003 to 2004? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 this thread is an example of how numbers can be twisted in so many different ways. if someone wants to believe the sox are getting rich off ownership, you can probably find some numbers somewhere to back that. conversely, if you want to believe the sox are barely getting by, the numbers support that as well. i don't think the sox are making money hand over fist, and i think the team has in good faith attempted to make some moves. someone pointed out yesterday that although you may not like the moves the sox have made, at least they've attempted to rectify and reform this team, and have done a pretty impressive job of it, imo, given the financial constraints they face. whether or not the sox will succeed with this rebuilding is another point entirely, given the crapshoot a season can turn into once it starts with players emerging and regressing, injuries happening, team's gelling and falling apart, etc. i applaud kw for at least trying and making efforts instead of sitting idly back and hammering fans with talk about how hamstrung our salary limits have left us. like his moves or not, he's made moves and made some significant ones, and that's what you do when you have a team that isn't getting it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 I grabbed the wrong set of numbers... What you posted was indeed the 2004, based on the end of 2003. They did have $12.8 million in operating income. Now, guess how much the payroll went up for 2003 to 2004? $5 mil, the same amount their revenue went up with the TNT deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 one thing the white sox dont have that some other teams have (see the cubs) is the coolness of going to the game. going to a white sox game isnt considered "cool." even when the cubs suck, its still the cool thing to do to go to the game and get drunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Jake, it soon will be, it soon will be. "If you win, they will come. They will most definitely come." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg231.html Pretty much sums up my opinion of Kenny Williams. I like KW, but I think he's hamstrung by the purse strings. I had issues with that article. I do agree that they went the cheap route with Duque but that clown will be eating some serious crow if a healthy Hernandez ( and there's no evidence to think he's not at this point ) wins 14-15 games for us. My biggest beef with that, though, is that he was lamenting the loss of Lee and Ordonez. As several posters have noted in other threads we had become a team with nothing but boppers on board. Now that Ordonez and Lee have been replaced by Dye, Posednik we are weaning ourselves off our total reliance on the long ball in favor of a good balance of speed and defense while retaining Konerko and Thomas/Everett for power. Also we have significantly strengthened our bullpen by adding Vizcaino and Hermanson. As other posters have correctly noted, we havent won anything the last 4 years with the players we have now so a retooling was needed and I think KW accomplished that. If they bring over Eckstien like they are talking about then that's just icing on the cake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 $5 mil, the same amount their revenue went up with the TNT deal? 2003 payroll was $51 million. 2004 was $63-65 million Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Jake, it soon will be, it soon will be. "If you win, they will come. They will most definitely come." as much as winning the sox need to do a better job of generating and maintaining momentum during the season. the past two seasons the sox have followed up big moves (2003-everett/alomar; 2004-garcia) by going in the s***ter. someone mentioned above about the sox being in the national spotlight, and they have when they made these moves. but for various reasons those trades were followed with poor play on the field. it seems like the sox have had so much trouble sustaining success. i remember watching the game against the tigers last year when crede won the game with the homer. i was thinking 'wow, we've got it going, this team is going to surge.' instead, they promptly went in the crapper. hopefully the new roster will be able to avoid the feast or famine problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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