Fuel for the conspiracy fire

[YASNY]

I will wholeheartly agree with you there...

 

I whole heartedly believe that the US shot down the plane in Shanksville.  But to me that means the US was not involved in the conspiracy to kill their own people.  If they wanted to crash planes into their buildings in order to start a war, why would they shoot down one of them, and then they say that they didn't shoot it down?  That doesn't make any sense to me. 

 

I think if they meant to attack the Pentagon, they would have either let Flight 93 crash into where ever it was going to have the full effect on the public opinion, or the US would have announced that they heroically shot down 93 therefore saving all of the lives and such from where ever the plane was going.  Which would have at least temporarily thrown the spotlight off of the US government, because they made an "effort" to stop the attack.

I must admit, I've never tied the whole package together in that way. You have a good a point. I'll have to think on that. Maybe "the Let's Roll gang" thwarted the plan.

[Rex Kickass]

I think that would have come out during the 9/11 hearings, if it was indeed true. But the communications logs of FAA from 9/11 coupled with White House timelines tend to make the "shooting down" theory a lot more muddy.

 

That and if you shot something down in the air, the debris field would likely be much larger than what you saw in Shanksville. The physics of what happened lend to the idea of disintegration. The "Ask the Pilot" guy on Salon.com had a real good explanation about why nothing was left there. He brought the science there, so to speak.

 

Rumsfeld saying that the flight was shot down was probably an honest mistake, like when Cheney said he was moved by all the crosses at Arlington National Cemetery while flying over in Marine One. (The graves at Arlington are not marked with crosses, thats the big Allied cemetery in Normandy, France)

[EvilJester99]

While we are on it... I will admit I was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll....

[YASNY]

While we are on it... I will admit I was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll.... 

LMAO ... Don't get me started!

[southsider2k5]

LMAO ... Don't get me started!

YAS, do you get the History Channel? If you do you need to check out the show Conspiracy on Sunday nights. It is usually on at 9pm Chicago time. It is an excellent show on this kind of stuff. They let people make their cases for why an event was or was not a conspiracy, and they don't let thier opinion really enter into it. They pretty much leave it up to you.

[YASNY]

YAS, do you get the History Channel?  If you do you need to check out the show Conspiracy on Sunday nights.  It is usually on at 9pm Chicago time.  It is an excellent show on this kind of stuff.  They let people make their cases for why an event was or was not a conspiracy, and they don't let thier opinion really enter into it.  They pretty much leave it up to you.

Yes .. I get the History Channel. I love it. I've watched that show. I also went to Dealey Plaza and checked out the sight of the JFK assasination. As I said, don't get me started.

[Rex Kickass]

I blame this guy.

 

[EvilJester99]

I try to watch that show as much as possible... there are some really good ones on there... then there are some real whack jobs as well...

[southsider2k5]

Yes .. I get the History Channel. I love it.  I've watched that show.  I also went to Dealey Plaza and checked out the sight of the JFK assasination.  As I said, don't get me started. 

When I was in Dallas a couple of years ago, I did the samething. Did the museum tour also. Facinating stuff.

 

But I just wanted to recommend the show to you if you hadn't seen it. It is quality stuff. And I won't get you started Or maybe we should just do a big gigantic conspiracy thread, something like the NCAA threads? Does that sound fun?

[YASNY]

I think the main thing I'm trying to say is that we, as a nation and a people, have not held our leaders accountable for answer questions as to why this wasn't quelled any sooner. I cannot think of of a single legitimate reason why we did not prevent that "plane" from hitting the Pentagon. There is no excuse for that after the attacks on the WTC. The Air Force should have been buzzing the skies over Washington DC within two minutes of the 2nd WTC plane. The Pentagon never should have happened and our leaders have not given a reasonable explanation as to why it did. That, in itself, brings up questions and should make you take a closer look at what actually did happen.

[YASNY]

When I was in Dallas a couple of years ago, I did the samething.  Did the museum tour also.  Facinating stuff.

 

But I just wanted to recommend the show to you if you hadn't seen it.  It is quality stuff.  And I won't get you started   Or maybe we should just do a big gigantic conspiracy thread, something like the NCAA threads?  Does that sound fun?

You may have something there!

[Rex Kickass]

I think the main thing I'm trying to say is that we, as a nation and a people, have not held our leaders accountable for answer questions as to why this wasn't quelled any sooner.  I cannot think of of a single legitimate reason why we did not prevent that "plane" from hitting the Pentagon.  There is no excuse for that after the attacks on the WTC.  The Air Force should have been buzzing the skies over Washington DC within two minutes of the 2nd WTC plane.  The Pentagon never should have happened and our leaders have not given a reasonable explanation as to why it did.  That, in itself, brings up questions and should make you take a closer look at what actually did happen.

To be honest, I agree with you. But I think the responsibility goes further than that. 9/11 should never have happened, and we ought to take responsible steps to make sure that these things never happen again. I wish I could say that we are taking those steps, but we aren't.

 

To do so, without infringing on the liberties that you and I hold dear, would require a significant investment - about 3 to 5 billion dollars, or about what we spend for one week in Iraq. Instead of ramping up actual security measures like inspecting air cargo and sea cargo, we have runs on duct tape and saran wrap and bans on nail clippers.

 

To not hold our government responsible for overlooking our safety is to be an irresponsible citizen.

[YASNY]

To be honest, I agree with you. But I think the responsibility goes further than that. 9/11 should never have happened, and we ought to take responsible steps to make sure that these things never happen again. I wish I could say that we are taking those steps, but we aren't.

 

To do so, without infringing on the liberties that you and I hold dear, would require a significant investment - about 3 to 5 billion dollars, or about what we spend for one week in Iraq. Instead of ramping up actual security measures like inspecting air cargo and sea cargo, we have runs on duct tape and saran wrap and bans on nail clippers.

 

To not hold our government responsible for overlooking our safety is to be an irresponsible citizen.

I agree with eevery point you made. To have let it happened in the first place ... after the firts attempted WTC bombing, the OK City bombing, the USS Cole incident ... is totally unacceptable. And that is to be blamed on both parties and all branches of our federal government.

 

They aren't concerned with preserving the libierties we hold so dear. In fcat, I believe just the opposite is their motivation. The WANT to curtail our liberties and are using the events of 9/11 to do so. (SS2K4, there's another reason FOR the government to be behind this s***.)

[Flash Tizzle]

http://cnn.usnews.printthis.clickability.c...&partnerID=2004

Seriously, can anyone fathom Al-Qaeda operatives riding their cheap Nissan trucks through Pennsylvania attempting to locate Flight 93? Locals wouldn't be to fond of foreigners brandishing AK-47's in their town, I reckon.

 

Upon finding the plane, which had to have already been flying well within missle range (

 

No conspiracy here.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Whatever and whereever I read this thing, after plane #1 hit the WTC ... we were close enough to get to the WTC before #2 hit.  There are probably somewhat acceptable explanations for that though. 

 

However ..... the "plane" that hit the Pentagon went all the way to Ohio before turning around toward Washington.  There is a USAF base right outside of Washington ... Ramstein? ... where Air Force One always lands ... why the hell were those pitots not scrambled after two planes hit the WTC?  I knew it terrorists 3 seconds after plane number #2 hit the WTC.  Yet, we have this nonresponsive plane heading toward the capitol of the United States and do not scrambled a local air farce base to at the bare minimum protect DC?  They (our gov't) knew EXACTLY what, when, why and how everytjing was happening. Too many questions without logical answers.

 

Wait! .... Someone's knocking on my door.

There're 2 Air Force Bases near D.C. Bolling AFB and Andrews AFB. Both of them have fighters stationed there but like I've said in numerous posts before it takes time to call the pilots in, brief them and get them airborne. That was not the 50's and 60's when we had pilots on ground alert ready to fly air defense missions 24/7.

[YASNY]

Seriously, can anyone fathom Al-Qaeda operatives riding their cheap Nissan trucks through Pennsylvania attempting to locate Flight 93? Locals wouldn't be to fond of foreigners brandishing AK-47's in their town, I reckon.

 

Upon finding the plane, which had to have already been flying well within missle range (

 

No conspiracy here.

Pure speculation here ... ok? Take it for what it's worth. Flight 93 was predestined to be shot down by the USAF. It's "intended target" was the White House or the Capitol Building. They did, in fact, shoot it down with the intent of saying we reacted and prevented more damage. The cell phone calls and the "Let's Roll" guys gave the government an out. They did not have to get before the American people and say we shot down that plane. The heroes on board took that plane down at the cost of their own lives. Basically, this gave them the opportunity to choose the lesser of two evils.

[YASNY]

There're 2 Air Force Bases near D.C.  Bolling AFB and Andrews AFB.  Both of them have fighters stationed there but like I've said in numerous posts before it takes time to call the pilots in, brief them and get them airborne.  That was not the 50's and 60's when we had pilots on ground alert ready to fly air defense missions 24/7.

If we don't have a squadron or two of fighter pilots ready to scramble at the bases closest to our nation's capitol, something is drastically wrong.

[Rex Kickass]

I agree with eevery point you made.  To have let it happened in the first place ... after the firts attempted WTC bombing, the OK City bombing, the USS Cole incident ... is totally unacceptable.  And that is to be blamed on both parties and all branches of our federal government.

 

They aren't concerned with preserving the libierties we hold so dear.  In fcat, I believe just the opposite is their motivation.  The WANT to curtail our liberties and are using the events of 9/11 to do so.  (SS2K4, there's another reason FOR the government to be behind this s***.)

So... YAS, I gotta ask. What are you doing to protect your liberties?

 

And I mean that in the most nonconfrontational-not-meaning-to-put-you-on-the-defensive sense possible.

[Flash Tizzle]

Pure speculation here ... ok?  Take it for what it's worth.    Flight 93 was predestined to be shot down by the USAF.  It's "intended target" was the White House or the Capitol Building. They did, in fact, shoot it down with the intent of saying we reacted and prevented more damage.  The cell phone calls and the "Let's Roll" guys gave the government an out.  They did not have to get before the American people and say we shot down that plane.  The heroes on board took that plane down at the cost of their own lives.  Basically, this gave them the opportunity to choose the lesser of two evils.

There's too much coordination involved in this. Far too many areas to coverup.

 

What if the passenger never said "Let's Roll," or decided to rush the cockpit? The excuse of shooting down the plane, seemingly as opportunity to place credit to brave passengers, is useless. A conspiracy on this level requires more foundation to fall back on than the uncontrollable actions of passengers.

 

If USAF were under the orders of shooting down Flight 93, the decision was made far before Beamer uttered "Lets Roll." Bush would ultimately have given the order to fire upon a civilian aircraft.

 

If everything your suggesting is true, Bush really lucked out. All events which occured essentially drew attention away from a missle. Whether it's the isolated wreckage, eye witness accounts of the plane (fully intact) crashing, cell phone conversations/cockpit voice recorder picking up no explosions. Personally, I believe the truth would have come out by now. Someone; either a resident of Shanksville or an FBI agent invesitgating wreckage, would have (atleast) anonymously suggested our perception of Flight 93 was wrong. It's too big to sweep under a rug.

[Controlled Chaos]

the clearest case I've seen presented yet....

 

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

[kapkomet]

the clearest case I've seen presented yet....

 

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

Good site, Chaos.

 

BTW, good discussion guys and gals. It's interesting.

[Texsox]

I'm gonna have to do some research.  I recall reading where we actually had planes in the air, close enough to intercept number 2 at before it reached the WTC.  I don't have a clue where I read that, though.  I'll search while at work tonight.

My recollection of watching it live was all the confusion about how the 1st plane went in. Pilot error, pilot suicide, etc. were all being discussed when the 2nd plane hit. I'm fuzzy on the time frame but I thought it was less than a half hour.

[Texsox]

I think the main thing I'm trying to say is that we, as a nation and a people, have not held our leaders accountable for answer questions as to why this wasn't quelled any sooner.  I cannot think of of a single legitimate reason why we did not prevent that "plane" from hitting the Pentagon.  There is no excuse for that after the attacks on the WTC.  The Air Force should have been buzzing the skies over Washington DC within two minutes of the 2nd WTC plane.  The Pentagon never should have happened and our leaders have not given a reasonable explanation as to why it did.  That, in itself, brings up questions and should make you take a closer look at what actually did happen.

From what I remember the "Pentagon" plane was travelling over populated areas and shooting it down would have caused deaths over a wider area. QWhich comes back to the Penn plane down at the least populated spot along it's route. Luck? Divine intervention? Or good pentagon planning?

[HuskyCaucasian]

I will say this....

As a person who believes in a lot of relatively plausible conspiracy theories, I would not discount the Penn. plane being shot down and I would not discount something other than a plane crashing into the Pentagon. However, sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. In this case, I believe that to be true.

[YASNY]

So... YAS, I gotta ask. What are you doing to protect your liberties?

 

And I mean that in the most nonconfrontational-not-meaning-to-put-you-on-the-defensive sense possible.

I b**** a lot.

 

Seriously, all I do is to exercise my right to vote. For example, in the Nov '04 election I voted against every incumbant on the ballot, regardless of the office or the level of government to which they were seeking reelaction.