beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Looking at some stats between the sox and Twins bullpens, the Sox need guys to step up in 2005 to be better than the Twins. Adding up the OPS's of the top 6 guys in each 'pen, the sox avg OPS is .705 The Twins is .627 Takatsu .550 Nathan .516 Marte .666 Rincon .530 Vizcaino .724 Crain .551 Hermanson .748 Romero .634 Politte .755 Balfour .681 Cotts .784 Mulholland .852 While I think guys like Marte, Vizcaino, Hermy and Cotts will improve, they better to match the Twins 'pen. With Crain and Balfour, the Twins have young guys ready to step in. The Sox need their vets to improve and some surprises from the 7th man, either Diaz, Munoz or Bajenaru. I like Cotts as the long man/ LOGGY. Bajenaru as a rally killer in the 6th, 7th inning. If Baj is healthy, his numbers fit in like Crains and Balfours did from AAA. Let's hope he has a solid ST and makes the club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I think some of the Sox relievers mostly Cotts suffered from having Mike Jackson letting their base runners score... I can't even count how many MJ let in and Cotts got nailed for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Looking at some stats between the sox and Twins bullpens, the Sox need guys to step up in 2005 to be better than the Twins. Adding up the OPS's of the top 6 guys in each 'pen, the sox avg OPS is .705 The Twins is .627 Takatsu .550 Nathan .516 Marte .666 Rincon .530 Vizcaino .724 Crain .551 Hermanson .748 Romero .634 Politte .755 Balfour .681 Cotts .784 Mulholland .852 While I think guys like Marte, Vizcaino, Hermy and Cotts will improve, they better to match the Twins 'pen. With Crain and Balfour, the Twins have young guys ready to step in. The Sox need their vets to improve and some surprises from the 7th man, either Diaz, Munoz or Bajenaru. I like Cotts as the long man/ LOGGY. Bajenaru as a rally killer in the 6th, 7th inning. If Baj is healthy, his numbers fit in like Crains and Balfours did from AAA. Let's hope he has a solid ST and makes the club Good post, but I think with the starting 5 that we have we will only have a 6 man pen. The Sox pen worked the least innings of any team in MLB last year. Adding a real 5th starter will only reduce that workload. Plus I think if they do keep a 7th reliever it will be another lefty to compliment Cotts and Marte, most likely it would be Munoz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Plus I think if they do keep a 7th reliever it will be another lefty to compliment Cotts and Marte, most likely it would be Munoz. Or Kevin Walker. I wonder if they'll want to give Munoz more time in AAA and groom him for a more important role vs. a 7th man spot. He's very young still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Beck.. You should only take hermanson numbers when he was in the pen, the other numbers don't matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Or Kevin Walker. I wonder if they'll want to give Munoz more time in AAA and groom him for a more important role vs. a 7th man spot. He's very young still. Yeah I forgot about Walker. Actually I wonder if he will rank ahead of Neal or not if all things are equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 I still think Baj was hurt last yr, and I'd watch out for him to make an impact this yr [though he may start in AAA as closer] His numbers and the Twins Jesse Crain are eerily similar. ip h hr bb k's era Baj 53.2 31 5 14 67 1.51 crain 50.2 38 5 17 64 2.49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Yeah I forgot about Walker. Actually I wonder if he will rank ahead of Neal or not if all things are equal. A lot of people dissed the Walker signing. Not saying he's anything great, he's not, but it's important to sign a depth guy like that. Mainly because it gives you more flexibility with young developing pitchers. Munoz usually pitches bad in Tucson, the air is so thin and his big curve doesn't break. It's tough to evaluate him, and a young guy like that should build his confidence at AAA in a prime set up role. That way, if something happens to Marte/Cotts/Walker, he's more ready. On a related matter, I hope the Sox bring in 2-3 more non-roster invitees for the pitching staff. Not saying Robert Person but a guy like him if possible. They brought in Gil Heredia last year ... cost them nothing and would be a good addition if a guy would accept an assignment to Charlotte. Who knows if they can keep Grilli, some lower rung team might want him since he's healthy, 2 years after the TJ surgery. The more depth, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 I think some of the Sox relievers mostly Cotts suffered from having Mike Jackson letting their base runners score... I can't even count how many MJ let in and Cotts got nailed for it. I agree in part, esp w/ Cotts and Adkins. But the vets we've gotten haven't lit up the world. the sox need improvement from the vets mostly--Marte, Vizcaino, Politte, Hermy, and Shingo to stay solid BTW-Adkins OPS allowed was a horrible .862 [.504 slg, .358 obp] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Good post, but I think with the starting 5 that we have we will only have a 6 man pen. The Sox pen worked the least innings of any team in MLB last year. Adding a real 5th starter will only reduce that workload. Plus I think if they do keep a 7th reliever it will be another lefty to compliment Cotts and Marte, most likely it would be Munoz. If the sox go w/ 7 guys, which they should, Cotts should be the long man/ situational lefty [his stellar #'s in keeing IR from scoring shows this is good role for him. Then Munoz could a situational LHP as well. I like Munoz, as long as he's back in the pen like he was in 2003, esp in winter league. Let's hope the Sox experiment having Arnie work on his pitches pays dividends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Or Kevin Walker. I wonder if they'll want to give Munoz more time in AAA and groom him for a more important role vs. a 7th man spot. He's very young still. Was Walker ever decent in the minors? Munoz seems to have much more upside. Munoz has dominated at times, esp winter ball in 2003. Munoz should have been in AAA in the pen all of 2004, after his great 2003 yr in AA. He very well could be ready for the bigs, if he made a stop each yr. The 2 yrs in AA is deceiving as he was working as a SP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Beck.. You should only take hermanson numbers when he was in the pen, the other numbers don't matter I like Hermanson. He did do better in the pen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Was Walker ever decent in the minors? Munoz seems to have much more upside. Munoz has dominated at times, esp winter ball in 2003. Munoz should have been in AAA in the pen all of 2004, after his great 2003 yr in AA. He very well could be ready for the bigs, if he made a stop each yr. The 2 yrs in AA is deceiving as he was working as a SP. Not really. His numbers look consistantly mediocre http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/player_bio.asp...2306&hubName=SF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 On a related matter, I hope the Sox bring in 2-3 more non-roster invitees for the pitching staff. Not saying Robert Person but a guy like him if possible. They brought in Gil Heredia last year ... cost them nothing and would be a good addition if a guy would accept an assignment to Charlotte. Who knows if they can keep Grilli, some lower rung team might want him since he's healthy, 2 years after the TJ surgery. The more depth, the better. The Sox would do better to let the young guys surprise, as they have vets all set for spots. Give Diaz, Munoz, Baj, Grilli, Matt Smith, Josh fields innings and see what they've got. They could get a washed up guy or two to eat some innings. But save the valauble time for guys w/ a future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Not really. His numbers look consistantly mediocre http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/player_bio.asp...2306&hubName=SF Keep him in AAA as an insurance policy in case of injury. The Sox need guys who can get some outs, post low ERA's, and not just eat innings. Walker sounds like a dime a dozen type Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Also, remember that Nathen has only dopne this for one year. Every team has had relievers that are great one year, then disappear from the scene the next. While he was good last year, he needs to do it again. I also agree with EvilJester about Mike Jackson being a revolving door for inherited runners scoring. He just downright sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Every team has had relievers that are great one year, then disappear from the scene the next. While he was good last year, he needs to do it again. The same can be said about Shingo and even more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 The Sox and Twins OPS #'s [slg + OBP] has nothing to do with other bullpen guys. It's how many baserunners they've allowed. If I was comparing ERA's then Mike Jackson would figure in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 The same can be said about Shingo and even more so. But shingo did it for years in the pros, even if it was Jap ball. nathan has been minors and benchwarming. While the Japanese league may not be equal to MLB, it is better than the minors here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Also, remember that Nathen has only dopne this for one year. Every team has had relievers that are great one year, then disappear from the scene the next. While he was good last year, he needs to do it again. I also agree with EvilJester about Mike Jackson being a revolving door for inherited runners scoring. He just downright sucked. My point is a lot of people are saying the sox have the "best bullpen in the league", even KW is saying this. If they improve [which I think most will, esp. Marte and Vizcaino], maybe. But not as it stands. Don't get me wrong I like the moves they've made. But I want some young guys to come out and shine, like a lot of successful clubs do. Also, the twins have young guys who will likely improve on their solid 2004 ---Crain, Balfour. Nathan may come down to earth. Yet they should be solid, as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Best bullpen. Best rotation. Whatever. The Sox potentially have a very solid pitching staff from top to bottom. That's more than we've been able to say about thye Sox for quite some time. I'm very happy with our pitching staff as it looks going in. Things never work out over the course of a season as they look on paper. I'm willing to go into the season with what we've got, pitching wise, and take our chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Beck's made an important point though. It's important that we need young relievers to step up and post good numbers and be an important part of the bullpen which is exactly what Minnesota have done. Crain and Balfour are 2 young guys the Twinkies can control for the next few seasons quite cheaply, and that gives the team more payroll flexibility. I'm not saying the Sox shouldn't have signed Hermanson and traded for Vizcaino, hell no this bullpen needed upgrading, but it's important that guys like Baj, Diaz and Munoz step up and grab their oppurtunity IF and WHEN it comes their way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 I'm not saying the Sox shouldn't have signed Hermanson and traded for Vizcaino, hell no this bullpen needed upgrading, but it's important that guys like Baj, Diaz and Munoz step up and grab their oppurtunity IF and WHEN it comes their way. Exactly. The Sox needed vets to be "sure things". Hermanson was exactly the pitcher the Sox needed: a versatile guy who can give them a lot of innings; that he could potentially close was a huge plus. Vizcaino also will be a big move as he can potentially close. But having a top bullpen means having young guys step up when the Sox need them [injury; ineffectiveness; etc]. the sox need more guys with the potential to have ERA's in the 2's and 3's, who can keep the ball in the park and have low WHIP. Manhands, Munoz and Diaz I think can do that. I don't think Adkins can do that. Even Cotts is a question mark, yet how the sox moved him around last yr had a lot to do with his final numbers [though his high HR allowed are a big concern for a bullpen guy] The A's have upgraded their bullpen, similar to what the sox are doing. Bringing in solid arms. Yet they also know when to upgrade. They traded 27 yr old Justin Lehr to MIL as part of pkg for Ginter. He had a 4 something ERA in his 1st yr. Yet they brought in Cruz, Calero, have other arms like Street coming in. Adkins is similar. He performed well at times. Yet the Sox have a few guys who may be better fits [low WHIP, lower SLG, OBP] in Baj, et al. Maybe what I'm trying to say is the Sox need young guys with "higher ceilings". They finally have guys with "stable floors", vets who can get the job done, even if it's not pretty. Yet they shouldn't discount what a rookie can do, esp if they never give him a chance. Guys like Munoz, Baj, Diaz may start the yr in AAA. Yet if guys on the sox aren't doing the job [esp Adkins, Politte, Cotts], they shouldn't take up space like Jackson did last yr. Most playoff teams have rookies who contribute, who surprise and surpass expectations. The sox need more of these surprises Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChWRoCk2 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 so nobody thinks adkins will make the bullpen or team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Let's see: Shingo Hermanson Marte Pollite Vizcaino Cotts Adkins yep. I think he'll make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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