Schoeneweis vs Hermanson

[AnthraxFan93]

Schoney, by far was another dumb move by KW..If he would have kept Schoney in the pen then I would give him credit since Glover was a non factor last year. BUt, they decided to make him a a starter again, which failed.

 

Glad he is gone, as long as Hermy stays in the pen I be one happy Sox Fan

[qwerty]

Glad he is gone, as long as Hermy stays in the pen I be one happy Sox Fan

 

That is a lie, you will never be happy.

[AnthraxFan93]

That is a lie, you will never be happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The day KW gets fired I will be.. unless JR hires another cheap incompetent GM.. then its back to bashing the GM.

[JUGGERNAUT]

This is becoming laughable. You obviously don't like the fact that as a RP in 04 Hermanson outperformed Schow as a RP in 03. So now you are stretching it over 02-04. Which I'm sure if I looked at their appearances again Hermie probably has more scoreless innings in relief than Schow. Which is what a RP is all about. ERA is the worst statistic imaginable to measure an RP because it can be distorted so quickly with a few awful appearances. Scoreless appearances is much better.

 

Most good teams can overcome an appearance where an RP gives up a run but more than that usually means a loss. So you have to take that into account as well.

 

On another note, you will probably find this funny.

There was an article in the Southtown today on our new rotation.

With respect to Jonudy the reporter used "killer instinct of a poodle"

[JUGGERNAUT]

Cooper also mentioned they might rest El-Duque in the first month with the 3 off days. That would make Contreras the 3rd, & Garland the 4th when they don't need a 5th.

 

But matchups will play a bigger role in that decision. Garcia is likely to get the nod on opening day because of his success vs the Tribe.

[Gene Honda Civic]

This is becoming laughable.  You obviously don't like the fact that as a RP in 04 Hermanson outperformed Schow as a RP in 03. 

 

Lemme see --

 

Hermanson 04 in the pen -- 4.33 ERA in an NL pitchers park for everybody not named bonds

Schoeneweis 03 in the pen -- 4.18 ERA in the AL in hitters parks.

 

Nope you're still wrong. Keep trying though.

[3E8]

Lemme see --

 

Hermanson 04 in the pen -- 4.33 ERA in an NL pitchers park for everybody not named bonds

Schoeneweis 03 in the pen -- 4.18 ERA in the AL in hitters parks.

 

Nope you're still wrong.  Keep trying though.

Scho wouldn't have converted 17 out of 20 saves though.

[ChWRoCk2]

Didn't we get Hermanson as a late innings man? If so, what's the point of this thread? Neither have similiar roles.

 

your right

[DBAHO]

Scho wouldn't have converted 17 out of 20 saves though.

No-one will never know that since he's never really been given a chance in that role. With the closers they have in Toronto (Koch, Frasor etc.), it wouldn't suprise me to see Shoe given a couple of oppurtunities there if he's in the bullpen.

[JUGGERNAUT]

You still are clueless. ERA is a meaningless stat for a RP. Why is that so hard for you to figure out?

 

Herm RP 0R 23, 1R 2, 2R 2, 4R 2

He failed 6 out of 29 appearances. I would call that effective. You can scale that to 12 out of 60 to see just how much.

 

SSch RP 03: 0r 39, 1r 10, 2r 7, 3r 1, 4r 2

He failed 20 out of 59 appearances. I don't know if I would call that effective.

 

Put another way, win, save, or hold is all that matters for a RP.

 

The fact that Hermanson did his work in the NL & Schow did his in the AL

does matter. But when you consider the health history of Schow in both ANA & CWS Hermanson is the lower risk.

[DBAHO]

You still are clueless.  ERA is a meaningless stat for a RP.  Why is that so hard for you to figure out?

 

Herm RP 0R 23, 1R 2, 2R 2, 4R 2

He failed 6 out of 29 appearances.  I would call that effective.  You can scale that to 12 out of 60 to see just how much.

 

SSch RP 03: 0r 39, 1r 10, 2r 7, 3r 1, 4r 2

He failed 20 out of 59 appearances.  I don't know if I would call that effective.

 

Put another way, win, save, or hold is all that matters for a RP.

 

The fact that Hermanson did his work in the NL & Schow did his in the AL

does matter.  But when you consider the health history of Schow in both ANA & CWS Hermanson is the lower risk.

So it wouldn't matter if a relief pitcher had a really high ERA, so long as he didn't lose the game for the team. So if a pitcher had an ERA under 1, but had a record of say 1-2, he wouldn't be an effective relief pitcher?

 

What about a guy like Shawn Estes (ok he's not a relief pitcher), but he had a record of 15-8 with an ERA of 5.84 for the Colorado Rockies. Would you say that he's an effective pitcher? It's called run support. What about Shawn Chacon? 1-9, 7.11 ERA, but 35 saves right?

 

And look at those stats, Hermanson gave up 4 runs or more 2 times out of 29, while Shoe only did it 2 times out of 59. You say Shoe is the higher risk because he is injury prone. Well what are the chances Hermanson's ERA is going to be lower than 4.53 which is what is was for the Giants in the NL. What about Shoe's ERA dropping since he's moving away from the Coors Field of the AL?

[JUGGERNAUT]

ERA, like W&L are really poor measures for both starters & relievers. For a starter it's more important to look at how many quality starts they had, how many winnable starts, & how many poor (unwinnable starts).

 

Some pitchers like Garland self-destruct on their ERA when they have a poor start. Garland is prone to give up 8,9, even 10 runs when he flat out stinks up the mound. That distorts the kind of pitcher he really is. Makes him look a lot worse than he really is.

 

This is also why it was a complete joke that Clemens got the Cy Young over RJ last year. If you compare their dominant starts (6+ip, 0 or 1r), their quality starts (5+ip, <= 3r), their winnable starts (6+ip, 4r), & their bad starts (era > 4.50 or 5r+) RJ kicked his arse.

 

For a relief pitcher all that really matters are two things:

1) # of scoreless appearances

2) severity of runs

 

Herm RP 04: 0r 46, 1r 4, 2r 4, 3r 1, 4r 4

SSch RP 03: 0r 39, 1r 10, 2r 7, 3r 1, 4r 2

 

Since Schow had 59 appearances I just doubled Herm's numbers for comparisons.

 

Herm beats him on scoreless appearances.

Herm beats him on severity of runs.

On average a team can still win if a RP surrenders only 1r.

But more than 1r usually results in a loss so 2r+ is consider severe enough.

 

Keep in mind that if a RP inherits BL & gives up a HR that's 4R. His era

just got blown to crap because he won't even get credited for one IP

if he's yanked after that.

 

Everyone is going to have a bad night now & then. It happens to even the best like Mariano. But what separates the winners from the losers is consistency. Herm demonstrated that last yr with the SFG & finished the season healthy.

 

Schow was on the DL at the start of Aug.

[DBAHO]

How interesting you say Garland gives up more than 8 runs when he has a bad start. In 2004, he only did that once against the Phillies in June. And using your stats there, Hermanson was definitely more prone to giving up the "big" inning.

[qwerty]

Whenever people say well if so and so did not have those three bad starts his numbers would look great. Well, you can say that about practically every pitcher.

[YASNY]

Whenever people say well if so and so did not have those three bad starts his numbers would look great. Well, you can say that about practically every pitcher.

 

 

Todd Ritchie? Jamie Navarro?

[TheBlackSox8]

Todd Ritchie?  Jamie Navarro?

why did i just shiver thinking about those two pitchers??

[qwerty]

Todd Ritchie?  Jamie Navarro?

 

Exceptions to every rule.

[JUGGERNAUT]

JonG 04: 0R 0, 1R 6, 2R 6, 3R 3, 4R 9, 5R 3, 6R 5, 7R 1, 10R 1

Garland had 7 starts where it's basically game over, Sox lose.

 

If it makes you feel better this is my final word on this. Schow is a LH & that in conjunction with his numbers makes him more valuable than Herm. But he is a much greater health risk than Herm & has proven to be such at the Cell.

 

So what it comes down to is would you rather have Herm for 6 months

or Schow for 4 months? Because we have 5 quality starters now we are more in need of a RP with a good health history than one with a bad health history.