U.S. ends search for WMD

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Ok, Vietnam was a mistake. And lots of progressives knew that. And it was also apparent to many - well before the days of LBJ picking out targets - that it was not a threat to our national security. So you could make the argument that LBJ was guilty of the same thing that our current president is guilty of, having a s***ty foreign policy. You didn't even mention Carter's decision to withhold aid from Ethiopia because of its decision to align with the USSR in 1979, causing roughly one million deaths from starvation. I'll let that slip though, not many people know about the Sunday School's teacher deviation from morality.

 

I never debated about whether or not Afghanistan was the right thing to do. It was from the beginning. They clearly helped to make 9/11 happen by hosting Bin Laden, and refusing to surrender him. Nobody here ever debated Afghanistan, so don't line me up and say that I'm against that theater.

 

Gulf War II differs from the other three conflicts significantly because there was no provocation into attack. Iraq did not invade another state in 2002 or 2003. Iraq was not linked to a single instance of terrorism against the United States or its allies - (and if you bring up monetary gifts to suicide bombers' families, than we oughta been bombing Saudi Arabia too) and didn't meet the same criteria as the other three theaters. Further, there was already a containment regime around Iraq that was suiting our policy just fine for the previous dozen years and insured that Hussein couldn't do anything major without us knowing... and without causing any significant American casualties.

 

So, no, these four theaters are not the same. Two were ideological based. One was a response to a direct attack on American soil, and the other was based on a pipe dream from one small segment of the American politic.

 

 

Korea was not a mistake.

 

The decision to fight Vietnam was not a mistake, the way we fought it was the real mistake and it was a tragic one.

 

Afghanistan, even most of the left agrees that was necessary.

 

Vietnam, Korea and Iraq 2 were all fought on percieved threats to our national security.

[Rex Kickass]

Does that go for state constitutions as well? 

 

Like I said.  You are hypocrites for imposing the will of the very few on the many by way of litigation.  You are all for choice alright,  just so long as it doesn't run contrary to your beliefs. 

 

The people vote for the people who enact the laws and in some states they enact them themselves via ballot initiative.  Suddenly the will of the people is null and void because a small minority find the laws that the majority pass objectionable?

We also live in a country that has checks and balances. Unfortunately, this isn't a world of ham and plaques. That means that occasionally, minorities need to be protected from abuse and violations of their liberties. It's not something I expect everyone to understand. Maybe once the conservatives find themselves on the short end of their freedoms and liberties, they'll understand what progressives have been talking about all along.

[Rex Kickass]

Korea was not a mistake.

 

The decision to fight Vietnam was not a mistake, the way we fought it was the real mistake and it was a tragic one. 

 

Afghanistan,  even most of the left agrees that was necessary.

 

Vietnam, Korea and Iraq 2 were all fought on percieved threats to our national security.

 

Korea was fought because of the DPRK attacking the ROK.

 

Vietnam was fought because of North Vietnam attacking South Vietnam.

 

Iraq 2 was fought because Iraq attacked who again? Oh yeah, that's right. Noone.

[Texsox]

The ban on gay marriage was voted on by 11 states and passed by all.  Evidently the people want it and not the state.

 

How do progressives propose to reward hard work?  By taking away from those who earn and re-distributing their wealth to those who don't?  Spare me.  Socialist robbery is all that is.

 

What do Conservatives have to show for their time in office?  The demise of the Soviet Union,  the fall of the Berlin Wall, the freeing of millions of people in Eastern Europe, the liberation of Afghanistan from the Taliban regime, the removal of Saddam Hussein from power. 

 

Recodify discrimination?  If by that you mean an end to racial quotas ( reverse discrimination ) then you can add that to their list of accomplishments.  Explain how we've left our borders unprotected when we've spent billions to hire border patrol officers, deployed the most sophisticated technology available to help catch illegal immigrants and increased funding to improve the monitoring of our harbors by an exponential amount,

 

Also please explain to me why this is such a concern to you now when before 9-11 cracking down on illegal immigration was government sponsored racisim?  That's one thing I can't quite compute.

BTW,  "Progressives" have Vietnam and Korea on their record and I seem to recall us losing about 100 times as many men in those 2 wars as in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Nuke,

This post is the prime example of our nation's biggest problem. You have neatly categorized stuff as Us or Them. We are all the US. The Dems don't go and hibernate during a GOP term nor do the GOP during a Dem. I find it disgusting that you cannot embrace all Americans, just the ones who back the GOP. And by the way, some pretty disgusting individuals call themselves conservatives. We have accomplished all these things as a nation. Democratic led initiatives have led to cleaner water, cleaner air, and safer working conditions. But that didn't happen with just Dems working on it. It happened with a great deal of compromise and cooperation. You ave pointed out how Kerry supported the initial invasion, would you like to give him credit for the fall of Afghanistan?

[Rex Kickass]

Tex,

 

Like that quote. Never thought Ayn Rand would say something like that though. Oh wait, maybe she would....

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

We also live in a country that has checks and balances. Unfortunately, this isn't a world of ham and plaques. That means that occasionally, minorities need to be protected from abuse and violations of their liberties. It's not something I expect everyone to understand. Maybe once the conservatives find themselves on the short end of their freedoms and liberties, they'll understand what progressives have been talking about all along.

 

 

AHHH But you already are... The ACLU is hard at work trying to stamp out any trace of christianity in this country. Unfortunately for you , when you piss off the majority that creates a backlash and it's one you're having a hard time dealing with.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Nuke,

This post is the prime example of our nation's biggest problem. You have neatly categorized stuff as Us or Them. We are all the US. The Dems don't go and hibernate during a GOP term nor do the GOP during a Dem. I find it disgusting that you cannot embrace all Americans, just the ones who back the GOP. And by the way, some pretty disgusting individuals call themselves conservatives. We have accomplished all these things as a nation. Democratic led initiatives have led to cleaner water, cleaner air, and safer working conditions. But that didn't happen with just Dems working on it. It happened with a great deal of compromise and cooperation. You ave pointed out how Kerry supported the initial invasion, would you like to give him credit for the fall of Afghanistan?

 

 

I have? I'm not the only one.......did you read the post I quoted when I made that one? Evidently not.

[Rex Kickass]

Could you show me some proof of where the ACLU is trying to ban Christianity? Cause I'm willing to believe I'm gonna find more cases of the ACLU supporting religious freedom than I am of the ACLU trying to suppress it.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Could you show me some proof of where the ACLU is trying to ban Christianity? Cause I'm willing to believe I'm gonna find more cases of the ACLU supporting religious freedom than I am of the ACLU trying to suppress it.

 

 

How many times have you heard about them suing over christianity? I could go to infinity.

 

How many times have you seen them sue over displays of Islamic or Jewish or any other religion? I probably could count them on 1 hand hand still have fingers to spare.

[Rex Kickass]

ACLU of Nebraska Defends Church Facing Eviction by the City of Lincoln

 

August 11, 2004

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 

LINCOLN --The American Civil Liberties Union of Nebraska today announced that it would defend a Presbyterian church from a forced eviction by the city.

 

"There's no reason for the city to force the Church of the Awesome God from its home, and the city is violating both the First Amendment and federal law in doing so," said Tim Butz, Executive Director of the ACLU of Nebraska.

 

The Church of the Awesome God is located on the edge of an area zoned for industrial uses. Although no one has ever complained about the church, the city has been threatening to close it down for the last year.

 

Michigan Court Punishes Catholic Man for Refusing Conversion to Pentecostal Faith in Drug Rehab Program

 

July 20, 2004

 

 

 

 

ACLU Appeals to Michigan Supreme Court to Reverse Conviction

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 

DETROIT - The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan today asked the state Supreme Court to hear the case of a Catholic man who was criminally punished for not completing a Pentecostal drug rehabilitation program, which prevented him from practicing his own religious faith. His request to be transferred to another program that would allow him to practice his own faith was denied and he was sentenced to six months in jail and boot camp.

 

"This man was punished for insisting on the right to practice his own religion and refusing to be religiously indoctrinated as a condition of a court order," said Kary Moss, Executive Director of the ACLU of Michigan. "The endorsement of any faith as well as the discouragement of any other is clearly a violation of the First Amendment."

 

ACLU of New Jersey Successfully Defends Right of Religious Expression by Jurors

 

December 22, 2004

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: [email protected]

 

Citing ACLU Arguments, State Supreme Court Says Prosecutors Cannot Reject Jurors Who Are "Demonstrative About Their Religion"

 

NEWARK, NJ-- The State Supreme Court ruled today that a prosecutor violated the New Jersey Constitution when he removed two jurors from a jury pool, one for wearing Muslim religious clothing and another for having engaged in missionary activity.

 

"In this country, people have a right to express their religious beliefs without fear of discrimination by the government," said ACLU of New Jersey Legal Director Ed Barocas. "Excluding people from jury pools based on their religious belief or expression violates the principles of freedom found in the Bill of Rights."

 

Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks

 

June 3, 2004

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 

RICHMOND, VA -- Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, Falmouth Waterside Park Manager Brian Robinson has agreed not to prohibit baptisms in Stafford County, the ACLU announced today.

 

Robinson also told the ACLU that the Fredericksburg-Stafford Park Authority, which controls access to the public park, expects to issue written policies making it clear that religious groups have the same right to use the park as all other groups.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

 

 

I would gladly post every instance of them suing to stop the expression of the Christian faith but the post would be about 100 GB's.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I would gladly post every instance of them suing to stop the expression of the Christian faith but the post would be about 100 GB's.

 

OK, then post 10.

 

Edit: Oh and please make sure they involve an individual's expression of religion and not a clear case of government institution of religion.

[Rex Kickass]

I would gladly post every instance of them suing to stop the expression of the Christian faith but the post would be about 100 GB's.

 

Nice hyperbole, how about backing that up now with some facts.

 

It was like the "Christmas under attack" thing. So many of those stories turned out to be totally wrong. There was a story here in NJ about a school in South Jersey not being allowed to sing Silent Night because a kid was muslim and her parents threatened to protest.

 

But the real story was this, a parent of a muslim kindergartner asked that the kindergarten class not sing Silent Night or that the child would be excused from singing it at the Christmas show.

 

The kid didn't have to sing it. The song was performed. But that's the part that the fine cads at Fox *cough* News never wanted to tell you. Instead it was "silent night" banned at NJ schools!

 

Macy's decided to put Happy Holidays on their ads this year instead of Merry Christmas. Suddenly the story was "Christmas" banned from Macy's! No, they just wanted to include Hannukah in their ads. Store associates were told to say whatever they wanted. Be it Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, or Terrific Tet.

 

So many of these stories about the ACLU and about Christianity under attack are so full of crap and devoid of any basis in fact. It's the same thing as the "welfare mother" story. One instance happens somewhere, and its automatically under attack everywhere. It's a hysterical, terrible way to look at things.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Don't forget "Declaration of Independence banned at California school"!!!

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

OK, then post 10.

 

Edit:  Oh and please make sure they involve an individual's expression of religion and not a clear case of government institution of religion.

 

Oh, like a firefighter placing a nativity scene in front of the firehouse? Or some kids singing Christmas carols in class? God forbid some jewish guy or muslim drives by and sees it or its lawsuit time. Rediculous. That provision was intended to keep the government from establishing a national religion such as was done in Europe in those times and it's now being used by the ACLU to stamp out any celebration of Christmas. You'll never hear about them suing to stop Jews or Muslims from displaying their religous icons in public places though. You conviently forget that the same part of the Constitution provides for the free expression of one's religion, a fact which you convieniently choose to overlook.

 

More hypocrasy.

Edited January 14, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Oh,  like a firefighter placing a nativity scene in front of the firehouse?  Or some kids singing Christmas carols in class?  God forbid some jewish guy or muslim drives by and sees it or its lawsuit time.  Rediculous.  That provision was intended to keep the government from establishing a national religion such as was done in Europe in those times and it's now being used by the ACLU to stamp out any celebration of Christmas.  You'll never hear about them suing to stop Jews or Muslims from displaying their religous icons in public places though.    You conviently forget that the same part of the Constitution provides for the free expression of one's religion, a fact which you convieniently choose to overlook. 

 

More hypocrasy.

 

Nuke -- its just the Christian ones that get the most press from the puppy dog media that knows that controversy sells more papers, gets more people tuned in.

 

And Nuke, if you're worried about hypocricy, how about the Republicans lowering the ethics standards now that Delay could get the hammer dropped and be eligible to be punished by them.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Oh, like a firefighter placing a nativity scene in front of the firehouse? Or some kids singing Christmas carols in class? God forbid some jewish guy or muslim drives by and sees it or its lawsuit time. Rediculous. That provision was intended to keep the government from establishing a national religion such as was done in Europe in those times and it's now being used by the ACLU to stamp out any celebration of Christmas.

 

Thank you providing 0/10 actual cases. Win provided 4 specific examples of the ACLU defending Christians.

 

You'll never hear about them suing to stop Jews or Muslims from displaying their religous icons in public places though.

 

Rarely are there any problems with Jews putting menorahs in front of city hall while banning other religious icons or Hindus trying to put their creation myths in science classes or putting sculptures or Muslims getting tax money to build a new mosque.

 

You conviently forget that the same part of the Constitution provides for the free expression of one's religion, a fact which you convieniently choose to overlook.

 

More hypocrasy.

 

I didn't forget anything. All I asked for were some examples.

 

I know the ACLU can get too picky in some of its cases, but if you're going to say some bulls*** about OMG THEY WANT TO BAN CHRISTIANS I HAVE HUNDREDS OF GIGABYTES OF FILEZ ON IT then you could at least back it up a bit.

[Rex Kickass]

Oh,  like a firefighter placing a nativity scene in front of the firehouse?  Or some kids singing Christmas carols in class?  God forbid some jewish guy or muslim drives by and sees it or its lawsuit time.  Rediculous.  That provision was intended to keep the government from establishing a national religion such as was done in Europe in those times and it's now being used by the ACLU to stamp out any celebration of Christmas.  You'll never hear about them suing to stop Jews or Muslims from displaying their religous icons in public places though.    You conviently forget that the same part of the Constitution provides for the free expression of one's religion, a fact which you convieniently choose to overlook. 

 

More hypocrasy.

So, do you have a specific example? Or just more right wing "welfare mother" urban myth hyperbole?

[Rex Kickass]

I'll start you out with two. OK? In July of 2004, an federal appeals court ruled that a public display of the ten commandments in a courtroom was religious in nature and in violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. Those damn activist judges taking religion out of their own courtrooms....

 

Then in February of 2004, the ACLU successfully sued to have a ten commandments monument removed from a public park in Plattsmouth, Nebraska. Here's a quote from the ACLU's Nebraskan Executive Director, Tim Butz

 

"All we have sought from the very beginning of this matter was to have the monument transferred to private land and remove the appearance of government endorsement of its religious content.”

 

Yes, stamping out Christianity by moving displays of it from public to private property. That's really ruining religion for the rest of us.

[YASNY]

We also live in a country that has checks and balances. Unfortunately, this isn't a world of ham and plaques. That means that occasionally, minorities need to be protected from abuse and violations of their liberties. It's not something I expect everyone to understand. Maybe once the conservatives find themselves on the short end of their freedoms and liberties, they'll understand what progressives have been talking about all along.

 

This statement I agree with.

[YASNY]

Korea was fought because of the DPRK attacking the ROK.

 

Vietnam was fought because of North Vietnam attacking South Vietnam.

 

Iraq 2 was fought because Iraq attacked who again? Oh yeah, that's right. Noone.

 

 

I would call shooting at our jets over the no fly zone an attack. So the answer to your question would be"us".

[Texsox]

I have?  I'm not the only one.......did you read the post I quoted when I made that one?  Evidently not.

 

No you aren't the only one, and it isn't just the GOP or just the DEMs. The politicians have created an Us vs. Them competition in our society for their benefit, not ours. The media, in reporting and commentating have helped to perpetuate it.

 

The parties have seemingly dealt the issues out like cards in a poker game and are now playing their hand. No room for overlap, no room for compromise. No matter what happens, if it is good, grab the credit, if it is bad, blame the other party. Distortions and all out lies are accepted if they come from "our" side. Truth is rejected if it comes from the "other" side. Boutique news is becoming the fashion of the day. If the news casters doesn't cheer lead for "your" party, find one that does. Find someone who is on your side and keep drinking the koolaide.

 

Why is Fox growing so fast? It's news for "us" not "them". Conservatives are saying it must be balanced, because I agree with everything they say, and I'm balanced. Moderates are saying the LA Times is balanced, because I agree with everything they say, and I'm balanced.

 

In the end, we are heading towards a non violent civil war. America will not fall from external forces, America will fall from internal forces.

[mreye]

I'll start you out with two. OK? In July of 2004, an federal appeals court ruled that a public display of the ten commandments in a courtroom was religious in nature and in violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. Those damn activist judges taking religion out of their own courtrooms....

 

Then in February of 2004, the ACLU successfully sued to have a ten commandments monument removed from a public park in Plattsmouth, Nebraska. Here's a quote from the ACLU's Nebraskan Executive Director, Tim Butz

 

"All we have sought from the very beginning of this matter was to have the monument transferred to private land and remove the appearance of government endorsement of its religious content.”

 

Yes, stamping out Christianity by moving displays of it from public to private property. That's really ruining religion for the rest of us.

 

But then they turn around and do this:

Judge rules Islamic education OK in California classrooms

 

Requiring seventh-grade students to pretend they're Muslims, wear Islamic garb, memorize verses from the Quran, pray to Allah and even to play "jihad games" in California public schools has been legally upheld by a federal judge, who has dismissed a highly publicized lawsuit brought by several Christian students and their parents.

[YASNY]

But then they turn around and do this:

Judge rules Islamic education OK in California classrooms

 

That's so typical of California. :headshake

[Rex Kickass]

But then they turn around and do this:

Judge rules Islamic education OK in California classrooms

 

Except if you read the story, you'll find the ACLU was not at all involved in this case. So your point is what?