Ray-ray who?

[BrandoFan]

Seirously, folks, I tihnk Jimenez not only has a a higher ceiling than a 24yo Durham did, but also ois alredy as good as Ray. Evn when he makes outs, it's 6, 7, 8+ pitch affair. Impressive.

[southsider2k5]

He has been working deeper into counts, which is the most important thing for him to do now.

[baggio202]

Seirously, folks, I tihnk Jimenez not only has a a higher ceiling than a 24yo Durham did, but also ois alredy as good as Ray.  Evn when he makes outs, it's 6,-8 pitch affair.  Impressive.

have you been watching jimenez play 2nd base??...he is horrible ..durham was considered a liability but jimenez is worse..no range whatsoever and errors everywhere...he shows a pretty good relay arm..ill give him that

 

here are durham's 162 game averages over a 7 year career

 

112r, 177h , 35d , 8t, 15hm , 68rbi , 31sb, 278 avg , 352 obp , 783ops

 

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

[CubKilla]

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

Gotta give him a chance first though Baggs. While I'm usually in agreement with you baseball-wise, you picked a bad day to rip on Jimenez..... a solo HR and a HUGE 2 RBI double that would have probably been 3 RBI's if that jackoff wouldn't have interferred with a ball in play that added to a 3-2 White Sox lead. And as for Jimenez's range, with the exception a few great defensive plays you occasionally got out of Ray Durham (you'll get a few gems out of Jimenez too..... trust me), his range isn't what I would consider to be exceptional..... IMHO. Stewart was today's player of the game but consideration also has to be thrown over to Jimenez for two big offensive hits.

[witesoxfan]

Jimenez never will steal 30 bases...that's a given. He doesn't possess the speed nor the baserunning skills to do that. However....I gotta think he has a better glove and better range....though no one was better than Durham at turning two.

 

I could most definately see Jimenez become a good #2 hitter someday....but I personally do not believe he'll ever be a real good leadoff hitter. To be a good leadoff hitter....you gotta be able to steal some bases IMO....and I'm not sure Jimenez can steal a whole lot of bases.

[baggio202]

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

Gotta give him a chance first though Baggs. While I'm usually in agreement with you baseball-wise, you picked a bad day to rip on Jimenez..... a solo HR and a HUGE 2 RBI double that would have probably been 3 RBI's if that jackoff wouldn't have interferred with a ball in play that added to a 3-2 White Sox lead. And as for Jimenez's range, with the exception a few great defensive plays you occasionally got out of Ray Durham (you'll get a few gems out of Jimenez too..... trust me), his range isn't what I would consider to be exceptional..... IMHO. Stewart was today's player of the game but consideration also has to be thrown over to Jimenez for two big offensive hits.

not ripping on him...just saying its way too premature to say he is gonna be a better ballplayer than durham...lets not forget jimenez is no rookie anymore...over 773 lifetime at bats jimenez 264 average , 36d , 8t , 7hr, 8sb (6 cs) , 343 obp , 701ops...those numbers are well below durham's averages for his career...let alone his career year numbers

 

i think jimenez , if he gets his head out of his ass defensively and with some timely hitting can contribute to the sox...my defense of durham might have sounded like i ripping on him...he can help this team..but he will; never , imo put up durham type numbers...durham had a hell of a 7 year run here

[Chisoxfn]

Seirously, folks, I tihnk Jimenez not only has a a higher ceiling than a 24yo Durham did, but also ois alredy as good as Ray.  Evn when he makes outs, it's 6,-8 pitch affair.  Impressive.

have you been watching jimenez play 2nd base??...he is horrible ..durham was considered a liability but jimenez is worse..no range whatsoever and errors everywhere...he shows a pretty good relay arm..ill give him that

 

here are durham's 162 game averages over a 7 year career

 

112r, 177h , 35d , 8t, 15hm , 68rbi , 31sb, 278 avg , 352 obp , 783ops

 

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

Baggs, I gotta say this. Ray was ripped way too harshly defensively when with the Sox, imo. He did a heck of a job, but as many have mentioned he was way too streaky.

 

The thing I love about Jimenez is his willingness to go deep into counts, and he isn't looking to hit the homer every at bat. He does have some pop in his bat, but he will be a guy that could put up a .375 + obp year in year out. I want to see him become a better/more effecient base stealer. He has very good speed, yet he never uses it. This guy should be capable of 20-30 steals. He doesn't have Ray Ray speed, but he's quick. I'd also like to see him become a better bunter. I love how he's a slap hitter that works deep into the counts and will rarely strike out as he develops.

 

Defensively I think he's average. Very good arm.

[baggio202]

Seirously, folks, I tihnk Jimenez not only has a a higher ceiling than a 24yo Durham did, but also ois alredy as good as Ray.  Evn when he makes outs, it's 6,-8 pitch affair.  Impressive.

have you been watching jimenez play 2nd base??...he is horrible ..durham was considered a liability but jimenez is worse..no range whatsoever and errors everywhere...he shows a pretty good relay arm..ill give him that

 

here are durham's 162 game averages over a 7 year career

 

112r, 177h , 35d , 8t, 15hm , 68rbi , 31sb, 278 avg , 352 obp , 783ops

 

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

Baggs, I gotta say this. Ray was ripped way too harshly defensively when with the Sox, imo. He did a heck of a job, but as many have mentioned he was way too streaky.

 

The thing I love about Jimenez is his willingness to go deep into counts, and he isn't looking to hit the homer every at bat. He does have some pop in his bat, but he will be a guy that could put up a .375 + obp year in year out. I want to see him become a better/more effecient base stealer. He has very good speed, yet he never uses it. This guy should be capable of 20-30 steals. He doesn't have Ray Ray speed, but he's quick. I'd also like to see him become a better bunter. I love how he's a slap hitter that works deep into the counts and will rarely strike out as he develops.

 

Defensively I think he's average. Very good arm.

i hope you are right about jimenez's range but where has it been??...every ball hit between him and paully is going through mostly untouched...no matter how slow...in 5 games i havent seen him make a play where he had to range to his left...on tv..the showed higgenson taking that "oops i got fooled swing" and hit a ball in the hole netween 1st and 2nd...it wasnt hit hard because he was looking for a fast ball and was slowing down his swing to make contact..then they show jimenez and he is still standing still..takes two steps then the ball goes through..and how many balls went between him and paully in kc???..

 

like i said i hope youre right but com d'angelo, show me something in the field

[BrandoFan]

have you been watching jimenez play 2nd base??...he is horrible ..durham was considered a liability but jimenez is worse..no range whatsoever and errors everywhere...he shows a pretty good relay arm..ill give him that

 

1. Jimenez is a former defensive SS of the year at AAA if I recall correctly, so even with neck injury-related decline he is still much better up the middle than Ray ever was and has a stronger arm, which goes without saying. The question is, will he work hard enough (Ray certainly did) at getting better at turning DP's and going to his left. The rumor is he is really lazy on the D. end so I dunno, but if he does, he will almost cetainly be better than Ray-ray who, among other things, had a knack for making a blunder in the most inopportune moments (his non-error error in the 3rd game of ALDS comes to mind to spoil JB's ballsy and clutch comeback from DL).

 

2. Jimenez not having the speed to steal 30 bases [anymore]? Maybe and mayne not; if juiced up Valdimir Guerrero and A-Rod can do, I tihnk Jimenez can steal 15-20 with ease. It makes me wonder which games you are watching though. The games I am watching show that DJ is at least as fast as Josh Paul. Maybe it's the LASIK acting up, I dunno

 

3. I used to like Ray a lot. Not as much as Carlos Lee, Garland or Jose, but a lot. How soon do we forget that Ray had a career year at 31 last year and in 2001 everyone was on his case about always swinging for the fences. Do you remembver how many times he popped up on the first pitch with runner on 3rd? I do and I haven;t even been around long enough to follow his whole career. He is also making close to 8 million a year last time I checked; with him staying we would have to let go of Paulie and;/or would have never gotten Colon...Will DJ make ASG this year? It all depends on what Crede, Paulie, Hurt, Lee and Marte do. With Maggs and Colon and Burhle may be going, I doubt that they would want to choose more than 4-5 total players from one team even for the Cell crowd. I'll say this: at least one out of Crede-Valentin-DJ will go.

 

 

Oh, and Durham couldn't bunt for s***. Boo-ya!!! Ha'dya like dem apples!

[witesoxfan]

If one of those three goes....it will be Valentin. He is in his comfort zone...playing SS and hitting in the #2 spot ahead of Frank. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit .280 30 100 this year

[Chisoxfn]

Seirously, folks, I tihnk Jimenez not only has a a higher ceiling than a 24yo Durham did, but also ois alredy as good as Ray.  Evn when he makes outs, it's 6,-8 pitch affair.  Impressive.

have you been watching jimenez play 2nd base??...he is horrible ..durham was considered a liability but jimenez is worse..no range whatsoever and errors everywhere...he shows a pretty good relay arm..ill give him that

 

here are durham's 162 game averages over a 7 year career

 

112r, 177h , 35d , 8t, 15hm , 68rbi , 31sb, 278 avg , 352 obp , 783ops

 

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

Baggs, I gotta say this. Ray was ripped way too harshly defensively when with the Sox, imo. He did a heck of a job, but as many have mentioned he was way too streaky.

 

The thing I love about Jimenez is his willingness to go deep into counts, and he isn't looking to hit the homer every at bat. He does have some pop in his bat, but he will be a guy that could put up a .375 + obp year in year out. I want to see him become a better/more effecient base stealer. He has very good speed, yet he never uses it. This guy should be capable of 20-30 steals. He doesn't have Ray Ray speed, but he's quick. I'd also like to see him become a better bunter. I love how he's a slap hitter that works deep into the counts and will rarely strike out as he develops.

 

Defensively I think he's average. Very good arm.

i hope you are right about jimenez's range but where has it been??...every ball hit between him and paully is going through mostly untouched...no matter how slow...in 5 games i havent seen him make a play where he had to range to his left...on tv..the showed higgenson taking that "oops i got fooled swing" and hit a ball in the hole netween 1st and 2nd...it wasnt hit hard because he was looking for a fast ball and was slowing down his swing to make contact..then they show jimenez and he is still standing still..takes two steps then the ball goes through..and how many balls went between him and paully in kc???..

 

like i said i hope youre right but com d'angelo, show me something in the field

Where has he been positioned when the ball is hit that way? I think thats what it comes down to, if he's playing them up the middle then he's got no chance. Still, we've watched one of the more impressive "range" guys at second base. No one ever gave Ray credit for that but he had amazing range. Now we are going to a guy with average range, maybe a bit above average, I need to see more games before I judge him. Of course having a guy who absolutely no range on first doesn't help. PK is good defensively, but he's no Scott Spiezo (My opinion the ultimate defensive first baseman; JT Snow ranks second)

[BrandoFan]

Where has he been positioned when the ball is hit that way

 

I agree, it's very important. We know that Jerry Manuel sucks at stretegic placement of his defenders.

 

Of course DJ is not Robbie Alomar! Geez, he is new to the posistion, has put on quite a few pounds since his flashy, pre-injury days and is generally very lackadaisical (the only reason he ain't an AS yet and might never be IMO)...He is still better than Ray, who could go to his left ah-'t, but had a girlie arm and either couldn't get to anything up the middle or would let the ball go under his semi-dive. My impression.

[SI1020]

those numbers are his lifetime averages, ill bet anything jimenez will never come close to these numbers over his career...durham is also a 2 time all star..bet you jimenez wont make two of those either

Gotta give him a chance first though Baggs. While I'm usually in agreement with you baseball-wise, you picked a bad day to rip on Jimenez..... a solo HR and a HUGE 2 RBI double that would have probably been 3 RBI's if that jackoff wouldn't have interferred with a ball in play that added to a 3-2 White Sox lead. And as for Jimenez's range, with the exception a few great defensive plays you occasionally got out of Ray Durham (you'll get a few gems out of Jimenez too..... trust me), his range isn't what I would consider to be exceptional..... IMHO. Stewart was today's player of the game but consideration also has to be thrown over to Jimenez for two big offensive hits.

not ripping on him...just saying its way too premature to say he is gonna be a better ballplayer than durham...lets not forget jimenez is no rookie anymore...over 773 lifetime at bats jimenez 264 average , 36d , 8t , 7hr, 8sb (6 cs) , 343 obp , 701ops...those numbers are well below durham's averages for his career...let alone his career year numbers

 

i think jimenez , if he gets his head out of his ass defensively and with some timely hitting can contribute to the sox...my defense of durham might have sounded like i ripping on him...he can help this team..but he will; never , imo put up durham type numbers...durham had a hell of a 7 year run here

Best 2Bman for our team since Foxie IMO. I'm not ripping on Jiminez BTW, I wish him the best.

[BrandoFan]

wouldn't be surprised if he hit .280 30 100 this year

 

I had Val at .270, 30 homers, 30 doubles, 100 ribbies, 50 bibbies, 15 stealies before Spring Training (which he lit up in the last 2 weeks BTW) but if--only if--he could stay hamstring problem-free and wouldn't attempt any of that "beating the force-out at 2nd" s*** that almost cost him a broken leg last year. Who knows, I may have to revise those numbers up, lol.

 

(I keep my fingers crossed as Jose is one of the clutch-iest leaders this team has, though I guess Graffanino can step in and put up respectable 700 OPS #s if need be. )

 

 

On the related note, I wanted to kill that c*cksucker Palmer for spiking Val like that. What a sportsman that guy is!

[soxfan420]

wouldn't be surprised if he hit .280 30 100 this year

 

I had Val at .270, 30 homers, 30 doubles, 100 ribbies, 50 bibbies, 15 stealies before Spring Training (which he lit up in the last 2 weeks BTW) but if--only if--he could stay hamstring problem-free and wouldn't attempt any of that "beating the force-out at 2nd" s*** that almost cost him a broken leg last year. Who knows, I may have to revise those numbers up, lol.

 

(I keep my fingers crossed as Jose is one of the clutch-iest leaders this team has, though I guess Graffanino can step in and put up respectable 700 OPS #s if need be. )

 

 

On the related note, I wanted to kill that c*cksucker Palmer for spiking Val like that. What a sportsman that guy is!

what happened?

[witesoxfan]

420....Palmer tried to spike Valentin.....because he's an asshole.

[BrandoFan]

Palmer tried to spike Valentin

 

I think he did a bang up job of it and I am surprised Jose wasn't injured. The play was over and Palmer had a few seconds to change his mind but decided to ram his spikes into our SS's left chin full speed. Unreal stuff and Sox didn't retaliate.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Seirously, folks, I tihnk Jimenez not only has a a higher ceiling than a 24yo Durham did, but also ois alredy as good as Ray.  Evn when he makes outs, it's 6, 7, 8+ pitch affair.  Impressive.

are we watching the same jimenez????? the one i see sucks defensively... and he isnt all that great offensively so far...............miles would do us better i believe.. jose and jimenez together in that middle infield scares the living hell out of me and gives whoever is playing cf alot of work for the day..........

[soxfan420]

420....Palmer tried to spike Valentin.....because he's an asshole.

im sorry, there is nothing wrong with a hard slid, that is part of baseball. i love seeing a hard slide.

[BrandoFan]

are we watching the same jimenez????? the one i see sucks defensively...

 

He is getting used to the position; remember Paulie is worse than he was last year with Durham so it actually forces DJ drift further to his left than he should or can. Still, he isn;t worse than Ray-Ray and his girlish arm and lack of range, especially to his right. Ray took bad jumps on groundballs and because of his quick, short steps it looked like he was very mobile, but it was an illusion IMO. With some work (and I emphasize work because they say he is lazy and apathetical) DJ may become and above average defensive 2B. He won't be a GG shortstop he could have been if it weren;t for the freak accident, but neither was 8 Mill a year Ray-ray last time I checked.

 

and he isnt all that great offensively so far...............

 

Well, he is not doing all that bad either. Again, considering how bad our boy Olivo is doing, I do;t think it's right to crap on 900+ OPS that DJ has going for him even with the terrible start at KC. What sets him apart from, I believe, is that loike I mentioned, DJ works the count EXCEPTIONALLY well (making an out after a 8-pitch battle not only wear the pitcher out, but also lets Jose and Frank see a ton of pitches) and he isn't even 25 yet, right? Did he or did he not almost single-handedly win the most important game of the season thus far?

 

miles would do us better i believe.. j

 

That's one leap of fancy you're making...We already have one over-achiever in Rowand, but frankly it's one thing when you have an improving CF'er with a strong, accurate arm and another when you have a near 27yo AA player who can't field (are you kiddin' me??!!!), gets thrown out almost as many times as he steals a base and has Clayton-esque power potential. I really like Miles as a person...but not as a starting 2B-man on a championship team...Heck, he can't carry Graffinose's jock, afaiac, lol

 

Jose and jimenez together in that middle infield scares the living hell out of me..

 

Until they lead the league with 120+ DP's again, that is. Do you actually realize that Crede-Val-DJ-Konerko combo have one of the strongest arms in the league? And their range is above average, too, Koney excepted.

[baggio202]

420....Palmer tried to spike Valentin.....because he's an asshole.

im sorry, there is nothing wrong with a hard slid, that is part of baseball. i love seeing a hard slide.

did you see the play...it was well over and valentin was getting out of the way..palmer came in feet first with his spikes off the ground...as he hit val i nthe league he did a pop up slide..trying to pin vals leg on the ground as he stood up and put all his weight on it...lucky for val he was able to spin his leg out of there

 

thats not a hard slide...a hard clean slide is one where you slide late so you can hit the ss/2nd with your body..forcing him to jump over you to make a throw and hopefully cause it to go off line

 

once you are forced out if youre not close to the base you have to get out of the way...this playt was over..palmer had plenty of time to see that val wasnt making a return throw..it was cheap shot..there is a big difference between trying to break up a DP and trying to break a guys leg

[Steff]

Oh geezus.. 6 games (5 of which he SUCKED DONKELY BALLS) and one where he gets a couple clutch hits and he's the new comming of Christ. Paaaalleassee.. He, like Harris, can't hold Ray's jock at this point. Perhaps after 50 or 60 games I'll give him another look, but for now, IMO, It's to tears laughable to call him "better than Ray".

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Oh geezus.. 6 games (5 of which he SUCKED DONKELY BALLS) and one where he gets a couple clutch hits and he's the new comming of Christ. Paaaalleassee.. He, like Harris, can't hold Ray's jock at this point. Perhaps after 50 or 60 games I'll give him another look, but for now, IMO, It's to tears laughable to call him "better than Ray".

thats pretty much what i was thinking too steff..... face it jimenez is all hype and hasnt been the same since his accident.......i doubt he ever will return to that form.........its pretty safe to say that after 50 or 60 more games he will pretty much be doing the same he is now anyhow......its all in his attitude..... which from what i hear sucks..........cant go around thinking your God when you cant perform like him..........mho.............

[YASNY]

No way can you, at this point, classify Jiminez as better than Durham. Who knows how good the guy can be in the future. But as for now, Ray Durham is a better all around player. However, someone said Durham was the best at turning the DP. What? !!!! No. Ray worked very hard to become, at best, adequate at turning the DP. When he was young, he was terrible at it.

 

Also.. I can give you 3 reasons why Valentin will not make the all star team, as was predicted in this thread..... ARod, Tejada, Nomar.

[Steff]

Oh geezus.. 6 games (5 of which he SUCKED DONKELY BALLS) and one where he gets a couple clutch hits and he's the new comming of Christ. Paaaalleassee.. He, like Harris, can't hold Ray's jock at this point. Perhaps after 50 or 60 games I'll give him another look, but for now, IMO, It's to tears laughable to call him "better than Ray".

thats pretty much what i was thinking too steff..... face it jimenez is all hype and hasnt been the same since his accident.......i doubt he ever will return to that form.........its pretty safe to say that after 50 or 60 more games he will pretty much be doing the same he is now anyhow......its all in his attitude..... which from what i hear sucks..........cant go around thinking your God when you cant perform like him..........mho.............

Confimation that the attitude sucks. He thinks his poop don't stink cause he got the job over Willie. Another reason I can't stand him.. he's made s***ty comments about Ray (though he has never met him) and the issue with him wearing #5.. from a very reliable source his comment was along the lines that he'd wear Ray's # and Chicago would forget about him and root for a "real second baseman". Real classy.