MurcieOne Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Jimenez has a very high cieling........... I'm taking a wait and see approach with him though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted April 7, 2003 Author Share Posted April 7, 2003 Steff, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of DJ's breakout game yesterday may have on this streaky club. This game was aboslutely crucial not only to players involved but also to fans (and Sox need them in bunches from now on). Remeber the galvanizing effect Jeef Abbott's game winning homer had on the whole season in 2000? DJ's feat to wake up a dead offense may have an even bigger one. Some players are more clutch than others, that's a fact. But you're right, it's only been 5 games. Jimenez has a very high cieling........... I'm taking a wait and see approach with him though Excellent if a bit safe (I can't blame you, with Caruso, Harris, Norton, Snopek busts, lol) characterization. Pretty much I feel too. To those ridiculing me for even mentioning DJ the the same thread as St. Ray of Durham...OF COURSE, Ray's career stats look whole a lot better than DJ's, we have already established that. Can we please get past that? Can we evaluate a player using all factors*** even if we run the risk of making fools out of ourselves in 3-4 years if we're wrong? Please...Besides, I wish I had used the tongue-in-cheek tag in the first posts of the thred...lol ***- those include but are not limited to: salary, age, injury history, range, arm strenght, clutch-ness both on the D. and the O, ability to work extremely deep counts even on outs , scouting reports, DP turning ability, work ethic and how far one is from one's perceived potential, etc. Sure a lot of the things that I like about DJ are not so much in the stats as between the stats and my opinion has formed from watching him play, which is especially instrumental when talking about defense, clutch-hitting, etc. (For instance: anyone who's ever watched Clayton field would know that his range was mediocre, arm weak and DP-turning barely adequate; therefore high-fielding percentage that he boasts so much about ain't all that impressive.) I also made a few qualifiers and modifiers in respect to DJ's effort- we know Ray-ray gave 101% on every play/ It remains to be seen if DJ can overcome the much-mentioned apathy and continue to improve. IMO the tools are definately there. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkfan Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Ray is way better than DJ... hes stealin bases .. he can hit 300... DJ .. hes no where near as good, but i think he could be. is it true that DJ was one of the top prospects in all of baseball 3 years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted April 7, 2003 Author Share Posted April 7, 2003 is it true that DJ was one of the top prospects in all of baseball 3 years ago? Not only on the offensive side, but also D. and baserunning- he was voted as the best or one of the best fielding SS (that's right) in Intenational AAA League as well as stole 30+ bases. ' He is not even 25 yet, I think, so give him time. Ray (who is making close to 8 Mill BTW, something that's EASY to overlook) was certainly no All-Star after 600 only ML at-bats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Oh geezus.. 6 games (5 of which he SUCKED DONKELY BALLS) and one where he gets a couple clutch hits and he's the new comming of Christ. Paaaalleassee.. He, like Harris, can't hold Ray's jock at this point. Perhaps after 50 or 60 games I'll give him another look, but for now, IMO, It's to tears laughable to call him "better than Ray". I agree with you. I soley believe that Jimenez has the potential to be very good, but in all honesty we will be very lucky and happy if he turns into as good of a player as Ray Ray cause he really was one of the best 2nd baseman in the majors and one of the best 2nd baseman to wear a White Sox uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 While I haven't jumped on the Jimenez bandwagon just yet, what is the love affair with Ray Durham ? His range was far from exceptional (though better than Jimenez through 6 games ), he thought he was a power hitter when he had the tools to become a premier lead-off man, and..... this is JMHO, but I thought he dogged quite a bit. While Ray is faster on the basepaths than Jimenez, if he was in the upper echelon of 2B-men, why the lack of interest throughout MLB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 CK, I agree with your evaluation of Ray Ray - I wanted to like him so much but he was never consistent enough. But for this whole thread, you cannot compare Jimenez to Durham when one is a young guy started out and the other guy has been around since what, 95? One has shown what he has (and we still can't agree on what that is) while the other is just developing into what he will be. And who the hell wants Jimenez to be a clone of Durham? As any player, he will have his strengths and weaknesses. Two players cannot match up like clones. Hell, Durham was no Bobby Knoop. My personal jury on Jimenez is still out, but I liked what I saw this past weekend, liked it a lot. I am feeling much better about his development into a solid player for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 But for this whole thread, you cannot compare Jimenez to Durham when one is a young guy started out and the other guy has been around since what, 95? One has shown what he has (and we still can't agree on what that is) while the other is just developing into what he will be. The crux of my argument to those jocking Ray Durham after 6+ seasons in a White Sox uni and those trashing a guy after 6 games in a White Sox uni. Thanks cw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 But for this whole thread, you cannot compare Jimenez to Durham when one is a young guy started out and the other guy has been around since what, 95? One has shown what he has (and we still can't agree on what that is) while the other is just developing into what he will be. The crux of my argument to those jocking Ray Durham after 6+ seasons in a White Sox uni and those trashing a guy after 6 games in a White Sox uni. Thanks cw. How about the argument comparing the two with the same time frame you mentioned..? I don't think it's a secret that I like Ray.. and like him a lot. His family has been personal friends of mine and my family for 7 years. That's where my loyalty lies. On a professional level, he was a solid lead off hitter and is in the top 20 of second baseman. He had issues, yes. But he did not suck. Right now, there is no comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 But he did not suck. Nobody said he sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 He had issues, yes. But he did not suck. Exactly right, too. I wanted to like him as a player more than I did but he certainly did not deserve ever to be trashed. I never understood people who got on his case. He gave us some great moments and he deserves our appreciation. That said, I think Jiminez will develop into a solid player and I do not mind that D'Angelo is playing in place of Durham. I know what it is like to be friends with a player who gets traded. When Earl Averill, Jr. was traded away by the Sox, and moved away, he took with him his son and my childhood best friend. EA III. And being an off season trade I never even got a chance to say goodbye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 But he did not suck. Nobody said he sucked. I didn't say anyone did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 He had issues, yes. But he did not suck. Exactly right, too. I wanted to like him as a player more than I did but he certainly did not deserve ever to be trashed. I never understood people who got on his case. He gave us some great moments and he deserves our appreciation. That said, I think Jiminez will develop into a solid player and I do not mind that D'Angelo is playing in place of Durham. I know what it is like to be friends with a player who gets traded. When Earl Averill, Jr. was traded away by the Sox, and moved away, he took with him his son and my childhood best friend. EA III. And being an off season trade I never even got a chance to say goodbye. Ugh! I feel your pain about when they are traded in the offseason. When Cam was traded (while at winter ball at the request of the Sox) and found out about it on the ESPN ticker, that was the last straw for me. I was so pissed about that, as was he since his fiance and kid were still living here in Chicago. Luckily I've gotten to see him and the family since - but it's not the same when they aren't playing here. And even with the 100+ K's, Mike had 2 good years after his soph slump (I don't know how he's started this year so far..). This orginization has such class . You'd think after all these years I'd stop expecting them to not be so s***ty.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 He had issues, yes. But he did not suck. That said, I think Jiminez will develop into a solid player and I do not mind that D'Angelo is playing in place of Durham. Unfortunately, I do have an issue with it. The kid has never even met Ray and he's talked crap about him. He's a arrogant little s***. He's got a long way to go before I bother to even watch an at bat. I'm hoping he's gone before I have to start paying attention to his stats. But first and foremost is the success of the Sox. And unfortunately I don't see him contributing much in the long term. JMO though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Trades are a part of the game, and that is what I learned when I was 7. The Averills lived during the season 3 doors down from me and in the off season they lived whereever they were from, which I don't remember where that was. Hell, I was just a kid then! But we said see you soon at the end of the season, see you next spring, never knowing what was going to happen. That was a hell of a thing to learn at age 7. I remember telling my parents it should be against the law for anyone to be traded! That following season and for a few years Cubs player Glen Hobby lived at the same house, with his wife and kid. Nice people and I got to babysit their kid, but it wasn't the same. You just can't ever let yourself get too attached - baseball is a business and a trade can happen at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Trades are a part of the game, and that is what I learned when I was 7. The Averills lived during the season 3 doors down from me and in the off season they lived whereever they were from, which I don't remember where that was. Hell, I was just a kid then! But we said see you soon at the end of the season, see you next spring, never knowing what was going to happen. That was a hell of a thing to learn at age 7. I remember telling my parents it should be against the law for anyone to be traded! That following season and for a few years Cubs player Glen Hobby lived at the same house, with his wife and kid. Nice people and I got to babysit their kid, but it wasn't the same. You just can't ever let yourself get too attached - baseball is a business and a trade can happen at any time. Luckily I didn't deal with it whan I was a kid. And those I have become friends with I am able to go visit them in the offseason or even during the season now. It's definitely up'd my frequent flyer miles total in the past 4 years , not to mention got me WS and All Star tickets the past 3 years . And it's almost kinda nice to go to another city. I've seen almost every park thanks to player trades. Just sucks, especially the ones with families that you get to know, when they aren't in the same city anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted April 7, 2003 Author Share Posted April 7, 2003 He's a arrogant little s***. He's got a long way to go before I bother to even watch an at bat. I'm hoping he's gone before I have to start paying attention to his stats Typical chick, always petty, always judging Serisously, though, I don't understand how you can even know about the things I talked about (range, arm strenght, DP-turning ability, taking a pitching into deep counts, etc) if you aren't even watching him play...It's mindbogling, really. I am sure even if he starts "producing" (say very good D. and 825 OPS), you'll probably still find something wrong with him, no? The difference is I never disliked Ray and have no personal reason to bash him, I liked him a lot in fact. He was indeed top 5 2B-man in AL all things considered. IMO his range pretty much sucked after he hit 20 homers in '98 (especially up the middle; his quick but really short steps made for an illusion that he was going far for the ball); his arm was pretty much always subpar; he always had a knack for making a big error, more so than your average fielder, wasn;t very reliable and was only adequate at turning DP's. His base-running? Overrated: average jumps, Mike Camero who wasn't a fast as Ray still managed to be more effective on base-paths. Base-stealing? Between '97 and '01 he was CS in double digits, only once reaching 35 SB. Give me a player who can steal 20 bases but with only 2 CS than who steals 32 but gets caught 13 times. In addition, Ray was an awful bunter for someone of his speed. His offense? Nice OPS in low 800s, probably top 10 in the majors at his best. Certainly nothing even close to Alfonzo, Alomar, Kent, Soriano, Biggio, etc .Hell, even Belhorn has surpassed Ray last season. Meanwhile, Ray has been one of the highest paid 2nd-man in the last 4 seasons. For a budget-oriented team like the Sox, it was either him or Kenerko and Koney's potential won out. DJ? I made clear what I personally think of him as a player; if you don't care for what I wrote or didn't read it (more like it), so be it. I do have to say one thing: I cannot dislike a player solely for being "arrogant" as this term is too subjective and loaded, not to mention unimportant when it comes to winning. Guess what, some people who are honest and outspoken get confused with being arrogant and self-involved even tough they are not...whereas there are a TON of people out there who will all but say it out loud but in every other aspect of their conduct revealing what they really are. For all we know, Maggs and Valentin may indeed consider themselves to be the greatest hitters of all time, but have just enough sense not to declare it...But even if DJ is indeed all that San Diego players say he is- so what! Where does a healthy "ambition" (which altheletes, actors, politicians and people who want to be the best at what they do all share) stop and "arrogance" begins? And it's not like he is a wife-beater like Cordero or Belle, it's not like he sets up "charities" to laundry money like Sosa, takes steroids like Bonds or free-base like Strawberry, etc. Sure we all want see athletes living up to the clean-cut, role-model, say-the-right-thing-to-reporters images, but we live in the real world and they are real people first and foremost... A little perspective maybe? I think him being a self-involved asshat is easily forgivable (if not particularly appealing) if it doesn't affect his on-field contributions, which unfortunately wasn't the case in San Diego. If he talks the talk but doesn;t walk the walk THEN I have a big problem with it. What's best for the team, remember? It sure as hell ain't Miles or Harris or Graffanino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 Hey Brando fan.. your novel was making me sleepy. But I'll send the same sentiments back to you.... don't like what I write, don't read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted April 7, 2003 Author Share Posted April 7, 2003 Hey Brando fan.. your novel was making me sleepy Klassy. Cutting-edge sports analysis. The only difference is I actually supported my viewpoint and addressed what others wrote specifically. Sorry if I don't think much of your "Jimenez sucks, Ray is God" cheerleading, babe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 steff...im backing ya 100% ...ray was one of my favorites and id rate him probably the 3rd or 4th best 2nd baseman in baseball right now btw...to back up what steff said about jimenez being a little s***...ask HSC what he was like in ST when she said hi to him and go to the padres board and see all the problems he had there... steff can you post a link to the story where he trashed durham??..i want to read exactly what he said because if its as bad as you say it is he is in for a serious booing next time im at comiskey...not that he'd care judging from his checkered past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 steff can you post a link to the story where he trashed durham??..i want to read exactly what he said because if its as bad as you say it is he is in for a serious booing next time im at comiskey Please..... this is the first I'm hearing of this. And please tell us what he said or didn't say HSC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 Hey Brando fan.. your novel was making me sleepy Klassy. Cutting-edge sports analysis. The only difference is I actually supported my viewpoint and addressed what others wrote specifically. Sorry if I don't think much of your "Jimenez sucks, Ray is God" cheerleading, babe. Now Brando fan.. can you please quote where I said such a thing..? And where did I NOT support MY viewpoint..? I made my point. He's NOT the caliber player Ray is. I said I'll give him 50 or 60 more games before I make an assesment about his play. On a personal note.. he's a little s*** who I don't care for on a personal level. So.. again, where did I NOT support MY viewpoint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 steff...im backing ya 100% ...ray was one of my favorites and id rate him probably the 3rd or 4th best 2nd baseman in baseball right now btw...to back up what steff said about jimenez being a little s***...ask HSC what he was like in ST when she said hi to him and go to the padres board and see all the problems he had there... steff can you post a link to the story where he trashed durham??..i want to read exactly what he said because if its as bad as you say it is he is in for a serious booing next time im at comiskey...not that he'd care judging from his checkered past From his mouth to my ears baggs. But like all clubhouse problems, it'll come out soon enough. And when Baltimore rolls into town we can all get together and you can hear it from another player who's known him a few years and can tell you all kinds of wonderful things about him and his s***ty attitude. He's said many not so nice things about many people. His "my s*** don't stink" attitude is unreal. As for the booing.. during ST he was booed. As a result he told a group of kids to shut up. Definitely a class act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsgdf Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 Wow...what a strange thread. We don't like Jimenez because of things we heard he said or the way he responded when someone said 'Hi' to him at ST? Seriously, I respect all of you as Sox fans... but I root for my guys for how they perform on the field... not for how they act or how people say they act off it. Jimenez has impressed me from the beginning with his heads up defensive play and his ability to work a pitcher. The other crap - it's the same kind of crap people spew about Frank - soap opera crap - ugghh... No, Jimenez hasn't come close to putting up offensive numbers like Durham has over his career - then again - Jimenez is all of 25 years old. As great as Durham was while here... he was just as frustrating in his inability to reach the simplest plays up the middle. It sounds like some of you have developed friendships with players and their families over the years... and I'm envious of that. On the other hand, as a Sox fan, I'm glad my judgement hasn't been clouded by that fact and I'm able to make my evaluations objectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 steff...im backing ya 100% ...ray was one of my favorites and id rate him probably the 3rd or 4th best 2nd baseman in baseball right now btw...to back up what steff said about jimenez being a little s***...ask HSC what he was like in ST when she said hi to him and go to the padres board and see all the problems he had there... steff can you post a link to the story where he trashed durham??..i want to read exactly what he said because if its as bad as you say it is he is in for a serious booing next time im at comiskey...not that he'd care judging from his checkered past From his mouth to my ears baggs. But like all clubhouse problems, it'll come out soon enough. And when Baltimore rolls into town we can all get together and you can hear it from another player who's known him a few years and can tell you all kinds of wonderful things about him and his s***ty attitude. He's said many not so nice things about many people. His "my s*** don't stink" attitude is unreal. As for the booing.. during ST he was booed. As a result he told a group of kids to shut up. Definitely a class act. So his trashing of Durham is all hearsay ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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