More dominos to fall?

[RockRaines]

You're getting into this debate rather late.  There is a huge difference between Rowand and Harris that any educated Sox fan will be sure to point out.

 

With Harris, you have attitude problems and questions of desire.

 

With Rowand, you do not.

 

Harris has fallen out of grace with the Sox organization for a reason...something to chew on.

You are implying that you are an educated sox fan, and I am not. Of course your evidence for this is that you say that all along, sox fans always wanted arow and knew he was going to turn it around because he had NO attitude problems. You seem to forget so soon that most sox fans were calling to get rid of arow after his

258 .298 .394 .692 season. You better believe that there were issues of possible desire and attitude problems backing up getting rid of him. Luckily they decided that experience and offseason work may make arow turn the corner. It worked. And now he is one of the most popular, as well as hard working players. Willie has some issues, but anyone would after getting dumped on by fans like you.

I just think, that we need another full season to determine whether or not he is expendable. He could turn into a good role player, if he is used correctly. His year last year is actually pretty equal is not better than a-rows year mentioned above. Im not saying he will be a star, but I think he deserves some more time.

[JoshPR]

Graffy was a clutch hitter off the bench.  But, I don't think he's what we need. now.  I'd rather give the utility job to a young guy for development purposes.

 

 

I would rather go with Valdez. Maybe he doesn't hit much but he's a good glove man with range and that's what you want from the utility infielder. Graffy was horrid with the leather

[Guest JimH]

Not that much.  Just that Ozzie likes to talk, so you hear a lot of it.  The announcers tend to echo Sox management, so I just don't take too much from that (witness the sea change that occurred when Jimenez left -- from 'we don't see that at all' to 'worst teammate in the game').

 

If you look at the minor league reports, everyone praises his leadership and attitude.  That's from both partial and impartial sources.  And you didn't hear anything snide after the Sox got him, like you did w/ Jimenez leaving the Padres.  So he's confident, why is that at ALL bad?  He's never (as far as I've heard) said anything negative about his teammates, only positive things about himself.  And he's never gone to the press complaining when he loses time or gets thrown into a different position.

 

So I will continue to see Harris as a model citizen as long as I see nothing solid behind all this talk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I respect your opinion, but it really comes down to what we choose to believe. That is fine. You're choosing to believe the minor league scouting reports in the Prospect Handbook or wherever and yes I believe Harris is a hard worker.

 

If it were, say, just Harrelson making a few negative comments about Harris, I would say that's one guy's opinion. But when there are 6,7,8 people close to the team who question how he "fits" ... that IMO is a problem.

 

That problem is borne to light by the signing of Iguchi. No problems with Harris = no signing of Iguchi. That aspect is, to me, quite obvious.

 

I cannot emphasize enough two things ... one, this problem (real or imagined) goes well beyond the stats. And to many close to the White Sox org, it is a real problem and not imagined. Two ... if we do the math on the 25 man, Harris does not fit.

[YASNY]

I would rather go with Valdez. Maybe he doesn't hit much but he's a good glove man with range and that's what you want from the utility infielder. Graffy was horrid with the leather

 

That's basically what I just said. I was just giving Graffy his due.

[AddisonStSox]

You are implying that you are an educated sox fan, and I am not.  Of course your evidence for this is that you say that all along, sox fans always wanted arow and knew he was going to turn it around because he had NO attitude problems.  You seem to forget so soon that most sox fans were calling to get rid of arow after his

258 .298 .394 .692  season.  You better believe that there were issues of possible desire and attitude problems backing up getting rid of him.  Luckily they decided that experience and offseason work may make arow turn the corner.  It worked.  And now he is one of the most popular, as well as hard working players. Willie has some issues, but anyone would after getting dumped on by fans like you.

I just think, that we need another full season to determine whether or not he is expendable.  He could turn into a good role player, if he is used correctly.  His year last year is actually pretty equal is not better than a-rows year mentioned above.  Im not saying he will be a star, but I think he deserves some more time.

 

Lovely. Opinions are like...

 

Relax spike, I wasn't implying anything. You asked if people got down on Aaron the same way they are getting down on Harris; I think the answer is "no." IMHO, these are two very different situations.

 

If you think his body of work has merited more time, then you give it to him.

[CWSGuy406]

Ugh'.  Back to work.

 

I wanted Vizquel.  I wanted Cora.  I wanted Cairo.  I wanted Womack.  I wanted Eckstein...pattern?

 

Someone was going to be brought in.  It happens to be Iguchi.  I anticipated someone coming in because of the comments about Willie coming from inside the Sox organization.

 

Wheter you want to admit it or not, the Sox have fingered Willie as an attitude problem.  If Harris stays on the Sox, I want nothing more than for him to succeed and be a productive member of the Sox; however, I think it would better serve the Sox to trade him for something of value i.e. a gritty, veteran middlle infielder or some type of prospect.  If they can't get the utility middle infielder via the Harris trade, try free agency.  This goes beyond my "blind hatred" for Harris; it simply doesn't make sense to have him on the roster.  We need a vet that can play multiple (at least two, hence, if either Uribe or Iguchi, hell, or Crede goes down, someone can step right in) infield positions and do so without having to go through some sort of learning process. 

 

What more do you want from me?

 

I was just responding to your point that if someone wasn't brought in, I still wanted Harris traded (which was brought up by you, not me). And I simply called that a dumb statement.

 

Agreed. They brought someone in, and have been looking to improve the second base position since Durham left.

 

But, again -- I was responding to your hypothetical situation of them not bringing someone in.

[jackie hayes]

Jabroni -- was it you who posted a link to a Baltimore Oriole prospect website?  Well, whoever did it, if you're reading this, can you post it again?

It was Juggernaut, iirc. I can't remember exactly which thread it was in though.

[AddisonStSox]

That problem is borne to light by the signing of Iguchi.  No problems with Harris = no signing of Iguchi.  That aspect is, to me, quite obvious.

 

Here, Here.

 

Do our opinions matter? No. Not one bit.

 

Do the opinions of multiple people in the Sox organization matter?

 

Once again...Harris has expierenced a fall from grace for a reason. Do I know what it is exactly? No. It could be a variety of different things. Maybe its attitude (as has been indirectly referenced many, many times). Maybe Kenny wants a guy that can hit LHP. Maybe Ozzie wants a guy that can use his tools and steal bases effectively. I don't know. I'm just a lousy fan, but I'd like to think I'm astute enough to catch these red flags.

[CWSGuy406]

I cannot emphasize enough two things ... one, this problem (real or imagined) goes well beyond the stats.  And to many close to the White Sox org, it is a real problem and not imagined.  Two ... if we do the math on the 25 man, Harris does not fit.

 

But Jim, is it really that simple?

 

Look -- I like Harris, I'll admit that. I think you know that. But -- if you have the chance to add a guy @ less than three million, who has the chance to give you a .300 AVG, .400+ OBP, 20+ HRs, and 70 RBI's, aren't you going to do it, even if the guy you currently have his Johnny Hustle himself, the hardest worker on the face of the planet, at that position currently?

 

I think this is a case of, the Sox believe that they might be getting a potential star in Iguchi. Whether their assessment is right or wrong, they believe Iguchi is going to be a great player here, considering he's put up (the last two season, at least) awesome numbers in a pitchers park.

 

This might be taken as a poor comparison, but don't you think -- if given the opportunity -- if Troy Glaus was knocking on the door and willing to sign with the Sox for about 5-7 million, the Sox wouldn't sieze the opportunity, regardless of Joe Crede's offseason progress?

 

What I'm trying to say is (putting all of my thoughts into one statement) -- The Sox probably believed that they were getting a better player, a better value with Iguchi @ 2.3 than Harris @ league minimum.

[hi8is]

midgets dressed up like santas helpers are cool

[YASNY]

What I'm trying to say is (putting all of my thoughts into one statement) -- The Sox probably believed that they were getting a better player, a better value with Iguchi @ 2.3 than Harris @ league minimum.

 

That statement says a a lot about what the Sox thought about Harris.

[AddisonStSox]

That statement says a a lot about what the Sox thought about Harris.

 

Jesus H' Tapdancin' Christ. Thank you.

[YASNY]

Jesus H' Tapdancin' Christ.  Thank you.

 

 

Tapdancin'?

[Jabroni]

Jabroni -- was it you who posted a link to a Baltimore Oriole prospect website?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Willie's career minor and major league stats:

http://www.sports-wired.com/profiles/HA/tbc829.asp

[CWSGuy406]

Jesus H' Tapdancin' Christ.  Thank you.

 

:rolly

 

No need to add the Jesus H statement, but whatever. No need to call RockRaines "spike", but whatever.

 

 

It's not rocket science. If you believe a player is going to give you a .300 AVG with 20 HRs, and 70 RBIs -- at 3 million -- who isn't going to take that over a guy who's going to hit .250-.280...?

 

That isn't the debate, though. Or at least I hope it isn't.

[quickman]

I wonder if you were calling for the trade of A-row 2 years ago???

 

 

Not the same ballplayer nor will he ever be. Rowand would be excellent trade bait.

[Guest JimH]

Keith ...

 

I think it goes deeper than just wanting what they feel is an upgrade (Iguchi over Harris). Stats wise, strictly stats wise, Harris had a decent year and it would be easy for them to say "he is still young, let's give him another year".

 

Instead, they busted their ass to find a new 2B. The White Sox are not historically noted to pursue upgrades when they feel they have a good enough solution already in house.

[AddisonStSox]

:rolly

 

No need to add the Jesus H statement, but whatever.  No need to call RockRaines "spike", but whatever.

It's not rocket science.  If you believe a player is going to give you a .300 AVG with 20 HRs, and 70 RBIs -- at 3 million -- who isn't going to take that over a guy who's going to hit .250-.280...?

 

That isn't the debate, though.  Or at least I hope it isn't.

 

You've been a real trooper through all this and I want to applaude you.

 

You're that guy that won't settle for anything less than being told, "you are right," aren't you.

 

Will that make this temper tantrum cease?

 

YOU ARE RIGHT KEITH.

 

Have a cookie, but whatever. :rolly

[thedoctor]

larkin's agent said last week that he's most likely going to retire. the reds signed aurilia today, although i haven't seen a link anywhere. i did get an email from the reds p.r. department about it, though.

[quickman]

You're getting into this debate rather late.  There is a huge difference between Rowand and Harris that any educated Sox fan will be sure to point out.

 

With Harris, you have attitude problems and questions of desire.

 

With Rowand, you do not.

 

Harris has fallen out of grace with the Sox organization for a reason...something to chew on.

 

 

Excellent and factual. All true. Rowand also hits 20 hrs, is great defensively and the fans like him. Harris can't bunt hit a fly ball to the track, and most fans hate him. Biggest difference the sox hate him

[AddisonStSox]

Keith ...

 

I think it goes deeper than just wanting what they feel is an upgrade (Iguchi over Harris).  Stats wise, strictly stats wise, Harris had a decent year and it would be easy for them to say "he is still young, let's give him another year".

 

Instead, they busted their ass to find a new 2B.  The White Sox are not historically noted to pursue upgrades when they feel they have a good enough solution already in house.

 

We need a new angle. This logical explaination for our position on the matter isn't coming across.

[Guest JimH]

larkin's agent said last week that he's most likely going to retire. the reds signed aurilia today, although i haven't seen a link anywhere. i did get an email from the reds p.r. department about it, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very interesting, thanks much for the info.

 

The Reds wanted some insurance, seeing as one of their SS candidates is stuck in Venezuela with a knee problem.

 

I did read the Larkin article last week, and the agent says Larkin has not found the perfect situation yet. Teams are pursuing him though ... notably Washington. The Sox were mentioned very loosely ... in terms of pursuing middle IF help.

 

Longshot.

[Guest JimH]

Excellent and factual. All true. Rowand also hits 20 hrs, is great defensively and the fans like him. Harris can't bunt hit a fly ball to the track, and most fans hate him. Biggest difference the sox hate him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have such a way with words.

[CWSGuy406]

Keith ...

 

I think it goes deeper than just wanting what they feel is an upgrade (Iguchi over Harris).  Stats wise, strictly stats wise, Harris had a decent year and it would be easy for them to say "he is still young, let's give him another year".

 

Instead, they busted their ass to find a new 2B.  The White Sox are not historically noted to pursue upgrades when they feel they have a good enough solution already in house.

 

Point well taken.

 

Sox obviously aren't happy with Harris, so they improved. I don't think they would have been going nuts if they didn't wind up with Iguchi, but they did -- so we won't explore the hypothetical "what if's"...

 

Now as to Harris makes the team will be the topic of discussion the next couple of weeks. I think he's the type of player that Ozzie would love to have coming off the bench, a guy who could do what Dave Roberts did in the ALCS -- come off the bench, play good defense, steal a key base (with the help of Raines and Podsednik, of course).

 

I just think Harris is too good of talent to leave at AAA, or to trade for a bag of balls. I think our biggest question marks at this point (offensively -- and I'm just knitpicking here, these aren't huge concerns, though slight) are what if Iguchi doesn't adjust well, and what if Podsednik doesn't return to 2003 form, or what if he stays at what he did during the 2004 season (which isn't good at all, despite the high number of SB's).

 

Harris deserves a spot over Timo Perez, but that's just me. A plus which has to be (at least, IMHO) taken into consideration is that Harris can play IF/OF, while Perez can only play OF. Granted, Ozzie is probably infatuated with Perez with his bunting ability, but I just don't think Perez deserves a spot on the team anymore...

[RockRaines]

Excellent and factual. All true. Rowand also hits 20 hrs, is great defensively and the fans like him. Harris can't bunt hit a fly ball to the track, and most fans hate him. Biggest difference the sox hate him

In a-rows second year, his avg and OPB was lower than willie's does that mean that A-row was pretty much worthless to this organization???