Willie Harris Article

[Soxbadger]

Jimh,

 

Let me preface that I do not trust the media. Part of their job, well the entirety of their job is to sell newspapers. Newspapers do not get sold by happy go lucky articles, they are sold by controversy.

 

The media has an interest that there is controversy, so even where there is none, they will create controversy. You can go back to just last year, how the media was playing the Thomas Guillen thing, Im sure there are hundreds of other examples as well.

 

Second, outside of Steff, no one here has given hard facts as to why Harris has fallen out of favor. It was merely based on conclusions that the media had already come to. Since I do not trust the media, I do not trust any conclusion that is soley based upon what the media has concluded.

 

Third, just because Ozzie and KW may not like Harris, does not mean that I have to agree with them, or that I have to believe that they know best for the White Sox. Just because they have the position, does not mean they are the best for the position.

 

I do not think Ozzie is gods gift to coaching like many others on this board, I am probably in the minority, but there were many circumstances where he made moves that were pretty strange. Also, I think that Harris has become part of a character assassination attempt by the Guillen Williams camp, to try and gloss over the fact that eventhough Harris did not produce that well, he did nothing to really hurt the Sox.

 

Also, I find it very problematic that Ozzie was unable to lead Harris. It seems to me that they think now that they have speed the stolen bases are just going to come. I do not agree with that theory, I think Ozzie needed to step up and say part of the problems was that it was his first year on the job, and he was getting used to calling signs, etc.

 

It would be one thing if Ozzie was saying "We kept giving Harris the steal sign and he refused to steal." But all I have seen/heard is that Harris had the green light, it was up to him when to steal.

 

That is nice and all, but if its not working, should not the manager take it into his own hands and force the player to steal?

 

The entire scenario makes no sense, and often I wonder why some players get no leash, where as others seem to be infinitly forgiveable.

 

SB

[Molto]

am I the only one who read this article and didn't take it as Harris b****ing and whinning? I thought he was straightfoward, honest, and dead on based on the quotes. The tone he used and how he said it is another matter, but I don't see how what he said in this article is whinny or b****y or selfish. He may be that in real life, but nothing in this article really indicates that.

 

with that said, I'd like Harris to stick around for Spring Training, just because I have SERIOUS doubts about Iguchi coming in and producing. So, I would let Harris go to Spring Training and put him on the roster as a backup 2B/CF for a while just to make sure Iguchi can play.

 

However, if Harris gives any problems during this period, dump him and take your chance with Iguchi and whatever backup we get (or Valdez).

[WilliamTell]

Keep Harris, we don't even know how well Uribe is going to produce this year.

[quickman]

Keep Harris, we don't even know how well Uribe is going to produce this year.

 

 

What will Harris do for that situation?

[YASNY]

Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen, by identifying a player who is not with the program, are just doing their jobs. We, as fans, are aware of certain things that we know did happen. We know they traded for Robbie Alomar to hold 2B thru the second half of 2003. We know they they traded for Juan Uribe to push Harris at 2b as well as be a backup for Valentin. We know they traded for Robbie Alomar to push Willie in 2004. We know they traded for Scott Podsednik because Harris was ineffective in the lead off spot. We know they signed Tadahito Iguchi because they thought they needed an upgrade at 2B. And yet, ... get this .... Willie Harris is in SHOCK at this point. How many proverbial 2x4's do they have to hit this guy with? What all was said to Harris in private, which from what I've read, the assumptions are either "nothing" or "Ozzie's fault he can't lead Harris". There's an old saying ... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. This is not the Sox. This is all on Willie Harris, his stupity, his arrogance and his ego.

[WilliamTell]

What will Harris do for that situation?

 

 

Sorry I meant to say Rowand. As much as I think he'll produce this year, there's still a chance he may not. I'd rather have Harris in the outfield than Borchard.

[quickman]

Sorry I meant to say Rowand. As much as I think he'll produce this year, there's still a chance he may not. I'd rather have Harris in the outfield than Borchard.

 

 

Well i don't think we need to worry as much there, but if by chance we do at least in the second half of the year then Everett would move to the outfield with pods sliding over to center. Still no need for willie.

[Soxbadger]

Molto,

 

I read it really positively, like Harris accepts that there is competition but just wants a chance.

 

Unfortunately hes already been character assasinated so badly, that anything he says will turn out to be "egotistical", etc.

 

SB

[southsider2k5]

Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen, by identifying a player who is not with the program, are just doing their jobs.  We, as fans, are aware of certain things that we know did happen.  We know they traded for Robbie Alomar to hold 2B thru the second half of 2003.  We know they they traded for Juan Uribe to push Harris at 2b as well as be a backup for Valentin.  We know they traded for Robbie Alomar to push Willie in 2004.  We know they traded for Scott Podsednik because Harris was ineffective in the lead off spot.  We know they signed Tadahito Iguchi because they thought they needed an upgrade at 2B.  And yet, ... get this .... Willie Harris is in SHOCK at this point.  How many proverbial 2x4's do they have to hit this guy with?  What all was said to Harris in private, which from what I've read, the assumptions are either "nothing" or "Ozzie's fault he can't lead Harris".  There's an old saying ... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  This is not the Sox.  This is all on Willie Harris, his stupity, his arrogance and his ego.

 

 

many various members of the White Sox organization->

 

Any questions?

[LosMediasBlancas]

So basically, whenever Ozzie says something to the media we should believe the complete opposite?

They traded for Alomar twice and picked up Uribe to at least split time at second.

It seems to me that it was obvious to every one except Willie that they didn't think he could handle starting at 2B.

 

He's just now figuring this out and compaining about it in the paper???

 

Willie should take his que from Aaron. He never once complained about them trading for Kenny Lofton or putting Jose Valentin out there. He just kept his mouth shut and worked hard. Look where it has gotten him now...

[CWSGuy406]

Its strange how different people can read the same article and come up with a different interpretation.

 

To me it seems all Willie wants is a chance to win the starting position.

 

He never says, "I should be the starter"

 

He only says "I want a chance to compete"

 

If that is whining, then once again I have forgotten what the term means. He states facts about how is ab's were sporadic and that is not a very good thing if you want some one to do a consistent job. Perhaps some players can do it, but there is a reason why even good pinch hitters generally have a low ba.

 

Also, every one is just posting conjecture on what the White Sox staff thinks. From what I have been told, Greg Walker has no problem with Harris.

 

::shrugs::

 

I just love how everyone has shipped Harris for a product most have never even seen for 1 minute.

 

What happens if Iguchi sucks and Harris turns the corner this year?

 

We threw away Harris just because, Ozzie does not like him.

 

By the way:

 

G AB    R    H 2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO BA OBP SLG TB

 

Guillen first year:

 

150  491 71  134  21  9 1 33 7  4  12  36  .273  .291  .358  176

 

Harris first year:

 

129  409 68  107  15  2 2 27  19  7  51  79  .262  .343  .323  132

 

Guess the Sox should of just thrown Guillen away because his OBP was under .300, he had under 10 steals, and so on and so forth.

 

He sucks burn him, give rookies no chance to develop at the majors!

 

Lol

 

SB

 

I know I'm really late on the subject, but great post. Excellent points.

[Guest JimH]

Jimh,

 

Let me preface that I do not trust the media. Part of their job, well the entirety of their job is to sell newspapers. Newspapers do not get sold by happy go lucky articles, they are sold by controversy.

 

The media has an interest that there is controversy, so even where there is none, they will create controversy. You can go back to just last year, how the media was playing the Thomas Guillen thing, Im sure there are hundreds of other examples as well.

 

Second, outside of Steff, no one here has given hard facts as to why Harris has fallen out of favor. It was merely based on conclusions that the media had already come to. Since I do not trust the media, I do not trust any conclusion that is soley based upon what the media has concluded.

 

Third, just because Ozzie and KW may not like Harris, does not mean that I have to agree with them, or that I have to believe that they know best for the White Sox. Just because they have the position, does not mean they are the best for the position.

 

I do not think Ozzie is gods gift to coaching like many others on this board, I am probably in the minority, but there were many circumstances where he made moves that were pretty strange. Also, I think that Harris has become part of a character assassination attempt by the Guillen Williams camp, to try and gloss over the fact that eventhough Harris did not produce that well, he did nothing to really hurt the Sox.

 

Also, I find it very problematic that Ozzie was unable to lead Harris. It seems to me that they think now that they have speed the stolen bases are just going to come. I do not agree with that theory, I think Ozzie needed to step up and say part of the problems was that it was his first year on the job, and he was getting used to calling signs, etc.

 

It would be one thing if Ozzie was saying "We kept giving Harris the steal sign and he refused to steal." But all I have seen/heard is that Harris had the green light, it was up to him when to steal.

 

That is nice and all, but if its not working, should not the manager take it into his own hands and force the player to steal?

 

The entire scenario makes no sense, and often I wonder why some players get no leash, where as others seem to be infinitly forgiveable.

 

SB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the media ... I'm not going on anyone from the print or TV media. I'm going on what was said by people close to the team, most of whom are team employees and rarely go out of their way to criticize players. Dave Wills, John Rooney, Harrelson and Jackson, Bill Melton, and more. There is a difference between those guys and say, Joe Cowley. The guys who work for the Sox aren't trying to sell newspapers or get ratings.

 

On conclusions drawn ... I'm not drawing any conclusions from the media. I'm drawing conclusions from three things: One, what those close to the team have said. I was rather shocked when I heard Dave Wills strongly criticize Harris in December, he rarely goes off on players. Melton told me personally last year that Harris is a little "different" and marches to his own drummer, to the chagrin of teammates and his bosses. Two, from what the Sox have done (over turn every rock to find a new 2B). Three, my own observation of Harris the ballplayer. My conclusions are not based solely on any one thing.

 

On Ozzie ... I too think Ozzie has things to learn, that's normal. He and his coaches spent considerable time with Harris last spring ... I saw it, I was in Tucson.

And let's be real ... Ozzie is not going to come out in print and say "we kept giving Willie the green lite and he refused to steal". That won't happen. The announcers commented on it, I saw it with my own eyes, and bottom line Willie had only 19 SB's with a decent OBP. That falls one hell of a lot more on Harris than anyone. The manager can put the steal sign on but it's up to the player to know the pitcher and get a good jump.

 

On Harris' character assassination: no one has to agree with KW/Guillen, but they know more about what's good for the White Sox than I do. I will go so far as to say they know more about what's good for the White Sox than anyone on this board.

 

On Harris doing nothing to hurt the Sox: again, it apparantly goes beyond stats. History is littered with players who had decent or even great stats and no one would touch them with a ten foot pole. This is not a personal vendatta against Harris, these guys are not stupid. They brought in a new guy because even with Harris' stats being what they were, there were still problems. Can we say clubhouse problem? And there will never ... ever ... be hard fast iron clad evidence of that. You will not get the proof you want, it does not exist. Management has to make a judgement decision based on the info and input they have. By bringing in Iguchi ... it appears they have. And to repeat myself, their info and input is one heck of a lot greater than mine, or anyone on this board. You, Steff, anyone.

 

On double standards and short leashes: We will never know. Some leashes get real short, real fast. Crede has been a disappointment but by all accounts he is a quiet guy who ruffles no feathers. Meaning, no problem in the clubhouse. Maybe (?) that's why his leash is longer than Harris.

[YASNY]

Molto,

 

I read it really positively, like Harris accepts that there is competition but just wants a chance.

 

Unfortunately hes already been character assasinated so badly, that anything he says will turn out to be "egotistical", etc.

 

SB

 

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Willie said in that article. He's a frustrated young man and has had his pride hurt. But Willie should have swallowed his pride earlier and stopped thinking he was the s***. He had so many signs THAT WE KNOW OF. He had Rowand as an example. Their situations we so very similar.

[beck72]

On ESPN's MLB main page, the insider has "White sox dealing Harris?" as its lead. Does anyone have any info on this?

[Guest JimH]

On ESPN's MLB main page, the insider has "White sox dealing Harris?" as its lead. Does anyone have any info on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No but I'm sure we'll have a 10 page thread about it when the info comes out

 

[AddisonStSox]

One step closer...

 

 

Clean out the locker son.

[CWSGuy406]

Oh please, give it a rest.   :rolly  That's the biggest load of bs I've ever heard.  Ever heard of being a team player and accepting your role?  It's not like Willie set the world on fire and earned the starting spot at 2nd base.  There's a reason the Sox benched Willie -- HE WASN'T PRODUCING!!!

 

When Harris was benched, right around the beginning of July, he was hitting .275 with a .351 OBP.

 

If that's considered not producing, than I'd venture to say at least five other guys (starters) on the team weren't "producing" either...

 

Soxbadger, I'm just not a big Willie fan. The guy thinks he's an All-Star when he has never even sniffed hitting .300. The guy was at Sox Fest with his "handlers" and he was signing autographs while he was talking on his cell phone. We don't need any egomaniacs on this team that think they're the sh*t. We need team chemistry.

 

Jabroni, can you compile a list for me of rookies, or second year players, who hit .300? Just a guess -- but I'd be willing to bet that that number would be less than five.

 

That "he has never sniffed .300" comment really makes no sense, because not many rookies are able to hit .300 in their first year, or their second year...

[YASNY]

When Harris was benched, right around the beginning of July, he was hitting .275 with a .351 OBP.

 

If that's considered not producing, than I'd venture to say at least five other guys (starters) on the team weren't "producing" either...

 

 

Again. We don't know everything. Maybe Willie was benched because he was given the steal sign and didn't go. Maybe he was the cause of some clubhouse turmoil. We don't know this stuff.

[quickman]

One step closer...

Clean out the locker son.  

 

 

maybe the nationals can watch him pop out.

[AddisonStSox]

Can on of the Insider posters PLEASE c'n'p this story.

 

As has been previously mentioned, It says the Sox might be trading Harris.

 

I'd imagine this article has specifics.

 

If found, please start a new thread.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index

[Dick Allen]

Can on of the Insider posters PLEASE c'n'p this story.

 

As has been previously mentioned, It says the Sox might be trading Harris.

 

I'd imagine this article has specifics.

 

If found, please start a new thread.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index

 

It just quotes the Southtown article. No further information.

[CWSGuy406]

Again.  We don't know everything.  Maybe Willie was benched because he was given the steal sign and didn't go.  Maybe he was the cause of some clubhouse turmoil.  We don't know this stuff.

 

Yasny, I have a question for you. Say you were in Harris' position. Obviously, Harris wasn't confident last year, and that's evident. Your standing on first base, and Ozzie gives you the steal sign. At this point, you have no confidence in your leadoff, your first step to second, reading the pitcher. At that point, aren't you thinking to yourself, "Should I just not steal, and have the chance to get driven in, or should I steal anyways, and -- who knows, upon my speed alone, I might make it, but I'm really not confident right now, so who knows..." (Yeah, like someone would think that to themselves... My bad -- dips*** sign to me)

 

Anyways -- I know this is a poor comparison, but I play high school basketball (varsity, at that). And, sometimes my coach will want me to put up a shot, even when I'm not shooting that well, or when I'm in a slump. So, it's basically a split second decision for me -- shoot it, knowing I'm not real confident at this point and it probably won't go in, or hang on to it, look for a better shot, and take the possibility that I may get ripped into by my coach when I come off the floor.

[YASNY]

Yasny, I have a question for you.  Say you were in Harris' position.  Obviously, Harris wasn't confident last year, and that's evident.  Your standing on first base, and Ozzie gives you the steal sign.  At this point, you have no confidence in your leadoff, your first step to second, reading the pitcher.  At that point, aren't you thinking to yourself, "Should I just not steal, and have the chance to get driven in, or should I steal anyways, and -- who knows, upon my speed alone, I might make it, but I'm really not confident right now, so who knows..." (Yeah, like someone would think that to themselves...  My bad -- dips*** sign to me)

 

Anyways -- I know this is a poor comparison, but I play high school basketball (varsity, at that).  And, sometimes my coach will want me to put up a shot, even when I'm not shooting that well, or when I'm in a slump.  So, it's basically a split second decision for me -- shoot it, knowing I'm not real confident at this point and it probably won't go in, or hang on to it, look for a better shot, and take the possibility that I may get ripped into by my coach when I come off the floor.

 

Sometimes the coach ... manager ... boss ... whatever the case may be .... is willing to risk the moment for the long hual. They want to see what you are made of. They want to see if they can count on you in the future with having to be concerned if you are worried you'll "look bad". Again, that's Willie's problem .. it's all about Willie. I don't know what the reasons were, and neither do you. But, you have a guy like Ozzie ... who had double digit years as a ML ballplayer and a few as a coach .... the benefit of the doubt over a young cocky inexperienced ballplayer.

[quickman]

Yasny, I have a question for you.  Say you were in Harris' position.  Obviously, Harris wasn't confident last year, and that's evident.  Your standing on first base, and Ozzie gives you the steal sign.  At this point, you have no confidence in your leadoff, your first step to second, reading the pitcher.  At that point, aren't you thinking to yourself, "Should I just not steal, and have the chance to get driven in, or should I steal anyways, and -- who knows, upon my speed alone, I might make it, but I'm really not confident right now, so who knows..." (Yeah, like someone would think that to themselves...  My bad -- dips*** sign to me)

 

Anyways -- I know this is a poor comparison, but I play high school basketball (varsity, at that).  And, sometimes my coach will want me to put up a shot, even when I'm not shooting that well, or when I'm in a slump.  So, it's basically a split second decision for me -- shoot it, knowing I'm not real confident at this point and it probably won't go in, or hang on to it, look for a better shot, and take the possibility that I may get ripped into by my coach when I come off the floor.

 

 

Well maybe thats it, maybe Ozzie told this guy to do something 50 times and he made a decision not too 50 times. maybe, and maybe he will be gone. maybe Ron Artest should not have gone into the stands and gotten kicked out basketball this year. But it was all about Ron artest. he used bad judgement and now his team and he will pay for that. You will always have decisions to make, as you get older they will become overwhelming at times. Harris May not have made the right decisions. again that is speculation but it apears the sox are not happy with him. can we all agree on that?

[CWSGuy406]

I realize this is an opinion board, but why the reluctance to realize they have totally soured on this guy, it is not about statistics.  All of those people who criticize Harris (Melton, Harrelson, DJ, Guillen, Wills, Rooney, more), let's face it, they know more than we do.

 

 

Jim --

 

The problem I have is that the same people who are saying this about Harris are the same people who were talking s*** about Lee after he left, when there was really no reason to do so.

 

And, just from watching Lee over the years -- sure, he had his boneheaded plays on the basepaths, his moments where he'd stare and stare at that homerun ball, but I didn't see anyone go as hard as Lee did into that LF corner (a dangerous area especially with the low fence), as well as going hard into secondbase. To be honest, not many players on the White Sox went as hard as Lee did, period. Yet he's talked about, now that he's gone, that he was lazy and didn't improve at all.

 

That's why I question the source...