3E8 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 03:50 PM) Drew Brees won it this year in football. Yeah, and I didn't quite understand that either. Unless it was implying a comeback from his college dominance. come·back n. A return to formerly enjoyed status or prosperity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 I agree with ya on that one. This isin't the first time the Sox have had a better team on paper than Minny in the last few years and we know the results from before. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I disagree. I don't think we had the better team on paper. Sure we had a better lineup , but until this year are rotation as been weaker than their's. So the advantage there cancels out. They had one of the best pens in the league 4 yrs straight now & we've had an average pen at best. On paper that would give the Twins the edge. This year we have a better rotation, & about as good a lineup & a better than average pen. But their pen dominance still gives them the nod on paper. Wrt the Tribe, SanS is taking a glass 1/2 full look at their pen. They are looking at some solid #'s some of the guys had in the 2nd half. We're talking opp hitting < 220 against them. These guys are too green to look at it that way. I just don't buy into the belief they are going to do that in the first 1/2 of 05. Is Percival worth dropping the Sox down to 4th? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mplssoxfan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(KevHead0881 @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 03:00 PM) Can't argue with the Twins as the favs. Until we knock them off, there is no reason to think otherwise. The Indians on the other hand... As Ric Flair put it on many an occassion, "To be the man, you gotta beat the man!" But the Twinks are far from unbeatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 04:43 PM) Your pen is not good enough. Wickm .261BAv 1.42WHIP 3.70era Riske .240BAv 1.42WHIP 3.72era Benta .268 1.34 3.92 Miller .216 1.17 3.09 Barto .275 1.71 4.66 Howry .228 1.15 2.74 Sauer .240 1.52 3.71 I would say the tribe's chances of being #1 are equal to that of the Twins losing 2 of their 4 J's (J Nathan, J Rincon, J Romero, & J Crain). Bartosh will not even make their pen next year because it is so deep with very solid relievers. They also have shuey. No way our bullpen is better. We have marte, shingo, and maybe hermanson who we can rely on. They have several guys who can go out there and you don't have a heart attack with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:30 PM) Bartosh will not even make their pen next year because it is so deep with very solid relievers. They also have shuey. No way our bullpen is better. We have marte, shingo, and maybe hermanson who we can rely on. They have several guys who can go out there and you don't have a heart attack with. Politte will be solid, and should be counted on most of the time...though I have no doubt he will undoubtedly go through a spell like he seems to do quite often where he is very bad. And I do have some faith in Vizcaino. I think he will be quite solid for us too. Adkins should be better this year too, with a year of experience under his belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(YoungstownIndians @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 04:19 PM) I agree with these rankings.... But The Tribe could be #1! 230 to -35 sit down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 11:36 PM) Politte will be solid, and should be counted on most of the time...though I have no doubt he will undoubtedly go through a spell like he seems to do quite often where he is very bad. And I do have some faith in Vizcaino. I think he will be quite solid for us too. Adkins should be better this year too, with a year of experience under his belt. I could be wrong, but unless we keep twelve pitchers, I don't see Adkins making the team... Closer-Shingo LH Setup- Marte RH Setup- Vizcaino, Hermanson Middle Relief- Cotts, Politte Qwerty, no faith in Vizcaino? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 FWIW...I do believe the Sox will carry 12 pitchers to atleast start the year, and it could remain that way all year. I also don't think Cotts makes the team out of ST. I think he will pitch in AAA this year to stretch out his arm, and I think they intend on having him start in 06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:39 PM) I could be wrong, but unless we keep twelve pitchers, I don't see Adkins making the team... Closer-Shingo LH Setup- Marte RH Setup- Vizcaino, Hermanson Middle Relief- Cotts, Politte Qwerty, no faith in Vizcaino? I like vizcaino more than cotts that is for sure. He should be our left handed specialist with cotts going down to triple a and work on some stuff. I say that because i think he has a much brighter future than adkins ever will. When i look at the indians i i would have faith with everyone in their pen. The same cannot be said for adkins. politte, and cotts imo. I also don't really no what to expect from hermanson with his transition to the american league. I think he will be like politte last year. Goes nine innings in a row without giving up a run the give up four in 1/3 of an inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:45 PM) FWIW...I do believe the Sox will carry 12 pitchers to atleast start the year, and it could remain that way all year. I also don't think Cotts makes the team out of ST. I think he will pitch in AAA this year to stretch out his arm, and I think they intend on having him start in 06. You expect them to move one of the starters in the off-season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:30 PM) Bartosh will not even make their pen next year because it is so deep with very solid relievers. They also have shuey. No way our bullpen is better. We have marte, shingo, and maybe hermanson who we can rely on. They have several guys who can go out there and you don't have a heart attack with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Vizcaino? Their bullpen sucks, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:48 PM) You expect them to move one of the starters in the off-season? Garland and/or Contreras could very easily be dealt, and there is some type of option with Duque...can't remember if it is team or player. Yes, I do think they'll move a starter in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:54 PM) Vizcaino? Their bullpen sucks, plain and simple. Indians bullpen? No it doesn't. They did have a rough first half but they were very good in the second half. half. If we also went by career era their bullpen would definitely be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 05:56 PM) Indians bullpen? No it doesn't. They did have a rough first half but they were very good in the second half. half. If we also went by career era their bullpen would definitely be better. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Rhodes is f***ing horrible. Wickman is old, and is returning from an injury. Howry was impressive after returning from an injury. Riske isn't bad but can be extremley inconsistent leading to some of the most atrocious outings since Mitch Williams. Bettancourt isn't that bad, but he's considered to be one of their best relievers. Miller is pretty good, and I wouldn't mind having him on our team. I don't see anything that special about their bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Bartosh will not even make their pen next year because it is so deep with very solid relievers. They also have shuey. No way our bullpen is better. We have marte, shingo, and maybe hermanson who we can rely on. They have several guys who can go out there and you don't have a heart attack with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heart attack or not, if they get the job done that's all that matters. Shingo, Marte, & Hermanson are that much better the tribe's top 3 guys. That gives the SOX the edge. Vizcaino is strong vs LHers & Cotts is surprisingly strong vs RHers. Politte should be fine pitching the 7th most of the time. If you look at hit from a LH vs RH pov the Sox got the bases covered: ST vs RH: 113AB, .150BA .226O .186S - best in the majors for a closer ST vs LH: 107AB, .215BA .294O .402S - one of the best in the majors Wickman is not in the same league as Shingo. I would take Shingo over Nathan. DM vs RH: 160AB, .263BA, .341O, .444S - fair - not bad, not good - ok DM vs LH: 098AB, .143BA .259O .214S - best in the majors for a setup guy Cleveland has no one to compare with Marte. LV vs RH: 138AB, .290BA, 333O, 522S - bad LV vs LH: 129AB, .163BA, 245O, 341S - one of the best in the majors Cleveland has no one to compare with Vizcaino. DH vs RH: 265AB, .242BA .294O .358S - good but not great DH vs LH: 239AB, .285BA, .354O .498S - bad About as good as Wickman CP vs RH: 125AB, .208BA, .273O, .312S - one of the best CP vs LH: 74AB, .351BA, .442O, .595S - bad I challenge CLE or MIN to produce a guy stronger vs RH in the 5th pen spot. NC vs RH: 143AB, 231BA, 329O, 399S - good NC vs LH: 104AB, 269BA, 342O, 519S - bad Summing it up: Best closer in ALC: Shingo Takatsu Among the best vs RH: Politte, Shingo Among the best vs LH: Marte, Vizcaino, Shingo Good vs RH: Hermanson, Cotts Cleveland is a far cry from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 06:03 PM) Rhodes is f***ing horrible. Wickman is old, and is returning from an injury. Howry was impressive after returning from an injury. Riske isn't bad but can be extremley inconsistent leading to some of the most atrocious outings since Mitch Williams. Bettancourt isn't that bad, but he's considered to be one of their best relievers. Miller is pretty good, and I wouldn't mind having him on our team. I don't see anything that special about their bullpen. Wickman is old but still effective. Sauerbeck is insane against lefties not so much against righties but that is not what he is there for. If shuey can get back to his old form he will be excellent for a minor league contract. They even have tadano as a back-up incase if anyone gets injured or implodes. As long as rhodes does not have a totally s***ty year like 99 or 2004 when he was injured he will help them. You don't think they are deeper than us? We may have two of the best relievers compared to them. But overall imo they will have a better bullpen era at the end of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 06:09 PM) Heart attack or not, if they get the job done that's all that matters. Shingo, Marte, & Hermanson are that much better the tribe's top 3 guys. That gives the SOX the edge. Vizcaino is strong vs LHers & Cotts is surprisingly strong vs RHers. Politte should be fine pitching the 7th most of the time. If you look at hit from a LH vs RH pov the Sox got the bases covered: ST vs RH: 113AB, .150BA .226O .186S - best in the majors for a closer ST vs LH: 107AB, .215BA .294O .402S - one of the best in the majors Wickman is not in the same league as Shingo. I would take Shingo over Nathan. DM vs RH: 160AB, .263BA, .341O, .444S - fair - not bad, not good - ok DM vs LH: 098AB, .143BA .259O .214S - best in the majors for a setup guy Cleveland has no one to compare with Marte. LV vs RH: 138AB, .290BA, 333O, 522S - bad LV vs LH: 129AB, .163BA, 245O, 341S - one of the best in the majors Cleveland has no one to compare with Vizcaino. DH vs RH: 265AB, .242BA .294O .358S - good but not great DH vs LH: 239AB, .285BA, .354O .498S - bad About as good as Wickman CP vs RH: 125AB, .208BA, .273O, .312S - one of the best CP vs LH: 74AB, .351BA, .442O, .595S - bad I challenge CLE or MIN to produce a guy stronger vs RH in the 5th pen spot. NC vs RH: 143AB, 231BA, 329O, 399S - good NC vs LH: 104AB, 269BA, 342O, 519S - bad Summing it up: Best closer in ALC: Shingo Takatsu Among the best vs RH: Politte, Shingo Among the best vs LH: Marte, Vizcaino, Shingo Good vs RH: Hermanson, Cotts Cleveland is a far cry from that. Throw all the stats at me you want. Save this thread. Indians will have a better bullpen era at the end of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 One thing that should be noted somewhat. Shingo did have a 1.30 WHIP in Japan in 03 IIRC...he seems to be the type of pitcher that is easier to hit the more you see him. I don't expect him to be nearly as dominant this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2005 -> 12:20 AM) One thing that should be noted somewhat. Shingo did have a 1.30 WHIP in Japan in 03 IIRC...he seems to be the type of pitcher that is easier to hit the more you see him. I don't expect him to be nearly as dominant this year. I can agree with that, but I still don't agree with you or qwerty that Cleveland will have a better bullpen. A lot more "if's", if Shuey returns to form, if Rhodes returns to form, if Wickman doesn't fall apart. And Juggernaut, I'm sorry, but you're crazy and dead wrong if you think Shingo is better/will have a better year than Nathan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Wickman is old but still effective. Sauerbeck is insane against lefties not so much against righties but that is not what he is there for. If shuey can get back to his old form he will be excellent for a minor league contract. They even have tadano as a back-up incase if anyone gets injured or implodes. As long as rhodes does not have a totally s***ty year like 99 or 2004 when he was injured he will help them. You don't think they are deeper than us? We may have two of the best relievers compared to them. But overall imo they will have a better bullpen era at the end of the year. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wickman is w/out question the 4th best closer in the ALC. He is no where near as effective as Shingo. Likewise whoever gets the role as setup man for Cleveland is far behind Marte who is 2nd behind Rincon. 1-2 pen: Min, Sox, Det, Cle 3-4 pen: Min, Sox, Cle, Det 5-6 pen: Min, Cle, Sox, Det That does not equal Cle having a better pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 2, 2005 -> 06:23 PM) I can agree with that, but I still don't agree with you or qwerty that Cleveland will have a better bullpen. A lot more "if's", if Shuey returns to form, if Rhodes returns to form, if Wickman doesn't fall apart. And Juggernaut, I'm sorry, but you're crazy and dead wrong if you think Shingo is better/will have a better year than Nathan... Shuey may not make the team...I don't think he will. Rhodes, I think, if he bounces back to his 03 form will be a good pitcher for Cleveland out of the pen, and if he reverts to 01 or 02 form, he is a steal for an average outfielder in Lawton. Wickman is a decent pitcher, but even if he does fall apart, they do have the depth to replace him. Fernando Cabrera and Tadano could both replace him in the pen and put up solid numbers. I think our pen will be better then qwerty thinks it will be...but I also do think that Cleveland's pen will be better than ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I believe i have already said we have the two best relievers between the two teams. But overall we do not. If you look at hit from a LH vs RH pov the Sox got the bases covered: ST vs RH: 113AB, .150BA .226O .186S - best in the majors for a closer ST vs LH: 107AB, .215BA .294O .402S - one of the best in the majors Wickman is not in the same league as Shingo. I would take Shingo over Nathan. Not saying shingo will suck next year but he will stuggle a little more than last. LV vs RH: 138AB, .290BA, 333O, 522S - bad LV vs LH: 129AB, .163BA, 245O, 341S - one of the best in the majors Cleveland has no one to compare with Vizcaino. You are wrong. His two year splits since he did not pitch last year SS vs RH: 237 AB, .266BA, .390OBP, .389SLG. SS vs LH: 199 AB, .171 BA, .268OBP, .271SLG. CP vs RH: 125AB, .208BA, .273O, .312S - one of the best CP vs LH: 74AB, .351BA, .442O, .595S - bad I challenge CLE or MIN to produce a guy stronger vs RH in the 5th pen spot. MM vs RH: 139AB, .201BA, .263OBP, .266 SLG. MM VS LH: 55 ab, .255BA, .431OBP, .418 SLG. Do you want me to compare the rest of their numbers to adkins/ cotts/ hermanson? It will not be pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Throw all the stats at me you want. Save this thread. Indians will have a better bullpen era at the end of the year. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That does NOT constitute a better pen! Wins, Losses, Saves, & Holds. The Sox' pen will beat the Tribe's pen in all 4 categories. Nathan vs LH: 132AB, 212BA, 293O, 295S Nathan vs RH: 125AB, 160BA, 222O, 216S Shingo vs LH: 107AB, .215BA .294O .402S Shingo vs RH: 113AB, .150BA .226O .186S - best in the majors for a closer Very close, but I'm giving the nod to Shingo for these reasons: 1- Crede, Uribe, Iggy, Koney should prove to be better D than MIN IF. 2- Shingo's stronger vs RH. I don't buy into this belief that the more you see of Shingo the better you fare against him. The fact remains that having to face Shingo after Marte is a nightmare. The deliveries are so vast between the two. As for these what-if scenario's well I can pull one out as well. What-If Marte regains his dominance vs RH he showed in 03'? That's just as likely in my opinion as any of these Tribe driven what-if's: DM 03 vs RH: 146AB, .199BA, 306O, 288S If Marte does that in '05 then I would put the Sox ahead of Min in the 1-2 pen rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Wanted to say two things: -First, with Shingo. I agree with witesoxfan that Shingo will regress a little bit this year. I don't expect a Koch-like season, but I don't expect the dominance we saw last season. That said, I'm hoping that Shingo can hold down the closers role the whole season, and I am fairly confident he can at least do that. Also, another thing that will help Shingo a bit is that he's better when he only pitches one inning. This year, I hope that Ozzie has learned that Shingo is most effective when he only goes one inning, rather than coming out in the eighth, getting the out, then coming back off the bench in the ninth... -I really don't think anyone can judge just what Hermanson is going to do for us. On one hand, he performed really well as the Giants closer in a pennant run. On the other hand, he's moving into the AL, which will (most likely) increase his ERA just a bit. That being said, I do think that Hermy will give us an ERA under four, and some good innings. His versatility will help us a lot, too. He'll be able to pitch on one night as a setup man, the next night as a middle reliever. But -- my basis upon judging him as a reliever can't come from stats, because really, he's had too small of a sample size as a reliever to judge him. We shall see, I guess. One thing we all can agree upon, though, is that April 4th can't get here soon enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 His two year splits since he did not pitch last year SS vs RH: 237 AB, .266BA, .390OBP, .389SLG. SS vs LH: 199 AB, .171 BA, .268OBP, .271SLG. MM vs RH: 139AB, .201BA, .263OBP, .266 SLG. MM VS LH: 55 ab, .255BA, .431OBP, .418 SLG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sauerback has as much chance as regaining his old form as Marte does his dominance vs RH. Right now based on '04 you have to give the nod to Vizcaino over Sauernack. MM vs CP: Why is it that we can always expect SOX stars to digress but never other teams? MM has 59IP in his career. He has as much chance of repeating his '04 numbers as CP has in improving. Maybe a slight edge at best. At least you agree CLE has nothing to compare to Shingo & Marte. Now I just need you to accept that Vizcaino & Hermanson edge out CLE 3-4 guys. I'll accept their 5-6 are substantially better than the Sox. But here's the thing. What matters most in any pen are your front 4. The top 2 see the most work & the bottom 2 are the hold guys. Min has a decisive adv over the Sox in 1-4. That makes them the fav to win the div. But Cle is behind the Sox in 1-4. The 5-6 guys are used mostly for mop up duty. They don't factor nearly as much in the money stats (wins, saves, holds). Shingo's a crafty veteran closer & I'm sure he'll adjust to maintain his edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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