Just an Iraq Thread

[Rex Kickass]

And how many scandals are going on in our own government? You act like the Bush administration is as clean as the driven snow. If you wanna make arguments about being independent investigations on UN activities and not on the Bush administration, you'll conveniently forget that the GOP Congress hasn't allowed any to take place. The UN has. Apparently, one is more concerned with transparency and accountability than the other...

[southsider2k5]

And how many scandals are going on in our own government? You act like the Bush administration is as clean as the driven snow. If you wanna make arguments about being independent investigations on UN activities and not on the Bush administration, you'll conveniently forget that the GOP Congress hasn't allowed any to take place. The UN has. Apparently, one is more concerned with transparency and accountability than the other...

 

When I have I ever said the current government shouldn't be held accountable? When have I ever said this admin was clean? I am not that stupid. I said many times during the election if there would have been ANY electable canditiate worth a spit, I would have voted for them.

 

I have been all in favor of impeaching anyone in the Bush administration who is connected to illegal activity. Rumsfeld should have been raked over the coals for Abu Grahib. People's heads should have rolled over WMD intel. But much like past Admins, this group did everything it could to stop it, surprise.

 

And a big, big difference between the two organizations is only one represents itsself as a nuetral organization. If you listen to Bush or any other President talk, they ALWAYS talk about the good of the USA first. The whole exsistance of this country is for the betterment of the this country. The whole reason for the UN to exsist to mediate and improve the world as an impartial bystander. That doesn't exactly work when the leader and past leader of the UN are connected to bribe taking scandals.

[Rex Kickass]

From the head of the independent investigation on UN Oil for Food in an AP article on February 3, 2005.

 

Volcker told The Associated Press that the investigation found no "systematic mismanagement" of the oil-for-food program. But he said there were serious problems.

 

The UN does some great work. Believe it or not, aside from the corruption which should be eliminated and those involved, punished, it was an incredibly effective program.

[Texsox]

First of all, the UN has been political from the very beginning. An early split was over membership. Some wanted any and all countries, others did not. With money, power, and prestige, come corruption and selfish interests. Both on part of individuals and from countries. The rich and powerful wanted control, hence the security council and the permanent members.

 

San Francisco

 

The Conference at San Francisco was to finalize the structure and language of the Charter for the new organization now to be called the United Nations. While the atmosphere was enthusiastic as the war in Europe was drawing to a close, there were still a number of unresolved issues. Many of the delegates had arrived by train, crossing the vast plains and winding through the high mountains of the western United States before arriving in the 'City by the Bay' in early spring 1945. They were impressed by the massive size of this country which in contrast to Europe had not been touched by the devastating destruction of the war. President Roosevelt who had been the energy behind the creation of the UN would not make it to San Francisco. He died of a massive cerebral hemorrhage on April 12 only days before the Conference opened on April 25, 1945. He was succeeded by his Vice President Harry Truman.

 

Immediately, the issue of membership exploded. The Latin American countries had met in Mexico at Chapultepec a few weeks before San Francisco to discuss the draft Charter. They insisted that Argentina be accepted for original membership at the Conference. Assistant Secretary for Latin American Affairs in the U.S. State Department, Nelson Rockefeller, was at the Mexico meeting and supported the Latin American position on Argentina. The Latin Americans wanted 'universal membership,' meaning that all countries would be eligible for membership. Taking most of the delegations by surprise, including the Americans, Argentina was proposed for membership in the opening sessions at San Francisco. Foreign Minister Molotov, leading the Soviet delegation, was furious that the Yalta agreement had been ignored. But the Latin Americans had 21 votes at the Conference and refused to accept the membership of the Ukraine and Byelorussia. The U.S. position taken by Truman was that while they had agreed to admit the two republics as members that did not necessarily mean that they could become original members and participate in the Conference.

 

The issue of the three candidates was sent to committee. Molotov tried unsuccessfully to have the Argentine issue removed from the agenda altogether. As a gesture of good will, the Latin Americans agreed to vote in favor of the two republics and the motion was passed unanimously. But Molotov still refused to equate this with an acceptance of Argentina, calling the Argentine government fascist and throwing himself into a tirade which was captured by the press covering the Conference. Senator Vandenberg thought that the entire episode had 'done more in four days to solidify Pan America against Russia than anything that ever happened.' Molotov, apparently in retaliation on the Argentine issue and because Poland was still not represented, began to object to limitations on the veto and the broad competence of the General Assembly which had been resolved at Yalta. Truman had to resort to requesting Harry Hopkins, former special advisor to President Roosevelt who was traveling in Germany at the time, to go to Moscow to seek an audience with Stalin to clear things up. Alexei Roschin who was among the Soviet delegation in San Francisco says that Stalin accepted the Americanís presentation of the matter and informed Molotov to adhere to the decisions taken at Yalta on the veto and the General Assembly. Argentina was accepted as a member and the Conference proceeded. Molotov eventually left San Francisco, and to everyoneís relief, Ambassador Gromyko took up the leadership of the Soviet delegation. The decision was taken that members of the UN would not have trusteeship status.

 

Ambassador Garcia Robles of Mexico who took part in the Chapultepec Conference and was also in the Mexican delegation at San Francisco recalls that the Latin Americans also emphasized the importance of enhancing and making more specific the powers of the General Assembly and delineating the relationship between the UN and regional organizations, reserving the right to resolve a local issue regionally before handing it over to the international body. Many of these considerations were taken up in San Francisco and the appropriate language was entered into the Charter. Importantly, it was eventually agreed that the General Assembly would not only be able to address economic, social, and security issues, but that it would have power over the budget.

[Rex Kickass]

There is nothing neutral about a political organization.

[southsider2k5]

From the head of the independent investigation on UN Oil for Food in an AP article on February 3, 2005.

The UN does some great work. Believe it or not, aside from the corruption which should be eliminated and those involved, punished, it was an incredibly effective program.

 

And the US leads the world in giving as a country. Even as only 5% of the earths population, they lead the world in money given to charity. The US is always the first to respond to disaster, and rebuild countries after wars and famine. Does that mean they can use that to justify the crap they get into?

 

The Catholic church gives an inordinate amount of money to charitable organizations, feeding much of the worlds poor, housing at least hundreds of thousands of orphans, and giving shelter to many homeless. Does that mean would exempt this organization from the sex scandals?

 

Bill Gates leads one of the most ruthless monopolies in the world, yet gives billions of dollars out of his own pocket for causes around the world. He is doing everything from putting computers in classrooms, to preventing AIDS spread from mother to baby, to vaccinating 3rd world kids. Does that make Microsoft exempt from crushing smaller companies who don't follow their whims?

 

The ends obviously doesn't justify the means.

[DBAHO]

And the US leads the world in giving as a country.  Even as only 5% of the earths population, they lead the world in money given to charity.  The US is always the first to respond to disaster, and rebuild countries after wars and famine.

No offense, but what was the original donation America made to the countries affected by the Tsunami Disaster FWIW?

[southsider2k5]

No offense, but what was the original donation America made to the countries affected by the Tsunami Disaster FWIW?

 

If you want to nitpick, everyones donations went to one upping things... No one realized the scope of the disaster early on, and everyones donations kept getting revised. Not just the US. And that doesn't even begin to change all of the work that the US does around the world everyday, and not just when their is a natural disaster.

[YASNY]

No offense, but what was the original donation America made to the countries affected by the Tsunami Disaster FWIW?

 

The "original" donation is what happened to be left in the disaster fund from the previous year's budget. That's after 4 hurricanes ripped through Florida and the southeastern US. That's what was available at that moment. Then they stepped up and made more available at the first opportunity.

Edited February 8, 2005 by YASNY

[DBAHO]

I know there were extenuating circumstances for the original amount that they donated, all I'm saying that compared to other countries' donations, America looked a bit stingy (in the eyes of others) for the amount of money they contributed, when you consider how much money they put everyday into Iraq.

[YASNY]

I know there were extenuating circumstances for the original amount that they donated, all I'm saying that compared to other countries' donations, America looked a bit stingy (in the eyes of others) for the amount of money they contributed, when you consider how much money they put everyday into Iraq.

 

"Looked a bit stingy" ... Past tense. Just another case of America haters taking a blind shot in the dark, and hoping they hit something.

[southsider2k5]

I know there were extenuating circumstances for the original amount that they donated, all I'm saying that compared to other countries' donations, America looked a bit stingy (in the eyes of others) for the amount of money they contributed, when you consider how much money they put everyday into Iraq.

 

And if you want to focus on one situation at one moment in time, you can make anyone look bad. How much did the Aussies send for the US hurricane's relief? I'm not going to hold that against the Aussies.

[YASNY]

And if you want to focus on one situation at one moment in time, you can make anyone look bad.  How much did the Aussies send for the US hurricane's relief?  I'm not going to hold that against the Aussies.

 

 

Touche'

[DBAHO]

And if you want to focus on one situation at one moment in time, you can make anyone look bad.  How much did the Aussies send for the US hurricane's relief?  I'm not going to hold that against the Aussies.

That's a national disaster, plain and simple. The Tsunami Devastation was a global disaster, one of the worst of our time. America wouldn't want to be bailed out by other countries, even if they were its allies.

[YASNY]

That's a national disaster, plain and simple. The Tsunami Devastation was a global disaster, one of the worst of our time. America wouldn't want to be bailed out by other countries, even if they were its allies.

 

 

Bulls***. In a really devastating disaster, we better be "bailed out" by our allies. I know this much, if it Australia that was on the receiveing end of that tsunami, we'd be there. And it wouldn't have hurt Australia to offer to help when Florida was raked over the coals.

[southsider2k5]

That's a national disaster, plain and simple. The Tsunami Devastation was a global disaster, one of the worst of our time. America wouldn't want to be bailed out by other countries, even if they were its allies.

And when the scope of the disaster came into focus, not just the US, but almost every country who gave aid, adjusted their donations upwards.

 

The initial reports were of a few thousand people dead. They are still finding dead people and survivors they didn't know about after 6 weeks of the disaster. I think if the initial reports had been of the entire destruction of tens of thousands of square miles of coast lines over many countries from Indonesia to Africa, the deaths of over 300,000 people, and the displacement of millions more, no country would have offered as little as they did.

 

Out of curiousity, what was the Aussies original donation offer and how long did it take them to make it?

[DBAHO]

Bulls***.  In a really devastating disaster, we better be "bailed out" by our allies.  I know this much, if it Australia that was on the receiveing end of that tsunami, we'd be there.  And it wouldn't have hurt Australia to offer to help when Florida was raked over the coals.

I know you would have, that's why the American - Australian Alliance is so important to us, even if the majority of the general public down here do not agree with some of the views.

 

Australia could have offered relief to Florida anyway, although I didn't hear anything about it, and there probably wasn't any stories on it anyway. But we alone pledged $1 billion in relief just to Indonesia, and we don't have the best realtions with them, even though they are improving slowly.

[mreye]

I know there were extenuating circumstances for the original amount that they donated, all I'm saying that compared to other countries' donations, America looked a bit stingy (in the eyes of others) for the amount of money they contributed, when you consider how much money they put everyday into Iraq.

And a lot of other country's donations have yet to be donated.

[DBAHO]

And a lot of other country's donations have yet to be donated.

Here's a list of every country that has donated and where each donation is heading etc.

http://ocha.unog.ch/fts/reports/daily/ocha...___05020723.pdf

[Rex Kickass]

And the US leads the world in giving as a country.  Even as only 5% of the earths population, they lead the world in money given to charity.  The US is always the first to respond to disaster, and rebuild countries after wars and famine.  Does that mean they can use that to justify the crap they get into?

 

The Catholic church gives an inordinate amount of money to charitable organizations, feeding much of the worlds poor, housing at least hundreds of thousands of orphans, and giving shelter to many homeless.  Does that mean would exempt this organization from the sex scandals?

 

Bill Gates leads one of the most ruthless monopolies in the world, yet gives billions of dollars out of his own pocket for causes around the world.  He is doing everything from putting computers in classrooms, to preventing AIDS spread from mother to baby, to vaccinating 3rd world kids.  Does that make Microsoft exempt from crushing smaller companies who don't follow their whims? 

 

The ends obviously doesn't justify the means.

 

Last time I checked you weren't calling the US government ineffective, the Catholic Church Godless, or accusing Bill Gates of stomping puppies (couldn't really think of a good analogy for Microsoft, its early) because of the bad things they do.

 

Yet you're making a judgment call about an entire multinational organization because of the actions of a few people on the take.

 

I love how Oil For Food is now used as a justification after the fact of invasion, and used to explain why Russia and France were so hesitant to allow force involved. Because it neglects the fact that they were right this whole time. The weapons that the US thought were there simply were not there. And Russia and France didn't believe they were there. Last time I checked, Russia and France were right on that score.

[southsider2k5]

United States of

America

(Region) Emergency relief activities (remaining

balance from total pledge of US$350 million;

US$ 99,275,757 already committed)

250,724,243.00 UN Agencies,

NGOs and

Red Cross

United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Emergency shelter assistance to

extremely vulnerable individuals affected by the

tsunami (USAID/OFDA)

1,000,000.00 UNHCR United States of

America

 

Donor Description Value in US$ Channel

(Maldives) Transport cost of emergency relief

supplies

68,400.00 BMI United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency 9,417 MTs food aid to

Sumatra (USAID/Indonesia)

7,533,600.00 WFP United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/Indonesia)

1,650,000.00 IOM United States of

America

(Indonesia) Temporary shelter, IDP

management and family reunification

(Anti-trafficking initiatives) (State/PRM)

200,000.00 IOM United States of

America

(Somalia) Provision of emergency shelter and

non-food items to households affected

(USAID/OFDA)

200,000.00 UNHCR United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Community rehabilitation,

livelihoods and microfinance project through

Nathan Associates (USAID/OFDA)

4,000,000.00 USAID/Sri

Lanka

United States of

America

(Region) Administrative (USAID/OFDA) 332,123.00 USAID United States of

America

(Indonesia) Health (USAID/OFDA) 292,129.00 IMC United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) 8,040 MTs of P.L. 480 Title II

emergency food assistance (USAID/FFP)

20,028,340.00 WFP United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) 5,583 MTs of P.L. 416 (B) Title I

emergency food assistance (USAID Sri Lanka)

4,466,400.00 WFP United States of

America

(Region) Emergency relief supplies

(USAID/OFDA)

196,631.00 NGOs United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency relief supplies

(USAID/Indonesia)

99,669.00 Nurani Dunia United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency food assistance

(USAID/Indonesia)

99,974.00 IRD United States of

America

(Indonesia) In kind - emergency relief supplies

to Sumatra (USAID/OFDA)

49,750.00 RC/Indonesia United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Transport cost of emergency relief

supplies (USAID/OFDA)

160,813.00 Bilateral United States of

America

(Indonesia) Administrative cost (USAID/OFDA) 84,000.00 USAID/DART United States of

America

(Indonesia) Transport cost of emergency relief

supplies to Sumatra (USAID/OFDA)

254,002.00 Bilateral United States of

America

(Region)Transport cost of emergency relief

supplies regionwide

910,000.00 Bilateral United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Child protection and psycho-social

activities (USAID/OFDA)

500,000.00 UNICEF United States of

America

 

(Indonesia) Emergency 5,400 MTs food aid to

Sumatra (USAID/FFP)

2,438,560.00 WFP United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

100,000.00 USAID United States of

America

(Thailand) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

100,000.00 Thai RC United States of

America

(Indonesia) Procurement and staffing of

reference laboratory (USAID/Indonesia)

579,000.00 NMRU United States of

America

(India) Remaining uncommitted water and

sanitation assistance of US$ 3 million

(USAID/OFDA)

1,600,000.00 USAID United States of

America

(Somalia) Emergency relief

activities(USAID/OFDA)

50,000.00 UNICEF United States of

America

(Indonesia) Mobile health units, rehabilitation of

local health clinics, malaria control, and

psycho-social services (USAID/OFDA)

2,000,000.00 IMC United States of

America

(Region) Logistics, air support and coordination 4,000,000.00 UNJLC United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Relief and recovery projects through

DAI contract with USAID/OTI (USAID/OFDA)

2,500,000.00 DAI United States of

America

(Region) Aerial assessment, transport of relief

personnel and light cargo (USAID/OFDA)

2,436,681.00 ASI United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency relief supplies and

health (USAID/Indonesia)

100,000.00 SC - US United States of

America

(India) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

50,000.00 Bilateral United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency relief activities in Aceh

Province (USAID Indonesia)

2,087,000.00 NGOs United States of

America

(Malaysia) Procurement and distribution of relief

items, shelter (Northwest Malaysia)

50,000.00 MRC United States of

America

(Region) Logistics, air support and coordination

(USAID/OFDA)

1,000,000.00 UNJLC United States of

America

(Maldives) Awaiting allocation to specific

sector(USAID/OFDA)

1,200,000.00 UNICEF United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Administrative (USAID/OFDA) 67,000.00 USAID United States of

America

(Indonesia) Awaiting allocation to speficic

project

291,500.00 WHO United States of

America

(Thailand) Administrative (USAID/OFDA) 167,000.00 USAID United States of

America

 

(Indonesia) Emergency relief supplies

(USAID/OFDA)

474,650.00 NGOs United States of

America

(Indonesia) Logistic centre 1,000,000.00 IOM United States of

America

(Maldives) 180 MTs of P.L. 480 Title II

emergency food assistance (USAID/FFP)

185,600.00 WFP United States of

America

(Indonesia) Child protection and psycho-social

activities (USAID/OFDA)

1,500,000.00 UNICEF United States of

America

(Indonesia) Logistics (USAID/Indonesia) 208,452.00 IOM United States of

America

(Indonesia) Water and sanitation

(USAID/Indonesia)

98,889.00 CARE United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Emergency relief supplies (in-kind

contribution) USAID/OFDA

267,725.00 NGOs United States of

America

(Indonesia) Immediate relief and rehabilitation

interventions (USAID/OFDA)

5,000,000.00 DAI United States of

America

(Maldives) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

100,000.00 USAID United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency response teams

(USAID/Indonesia)

99,960.00 CARDI United States of

America

(Maldives) In kind - emergency relief supplies 8,100.00 UNICEF United States of

America

(Sri Lanka)In kind - emergency relief supplies 49,750.00 IFRC United States of

America

(Indonesia) Water, sanitation, health and

shelter assistance in Sumatra(USAID/OFDA)

2,000,000.00 USAID United States of

America

(India) Water and sanitation assistance in Tamil

Nadu (USAID/OFDA)

650,000.00 CARE United States of

America

(Region)In kind - emergency relief supplies

regionwide

585,230.00 Bilateral United States of

America

(India) Water and sanitation assistance in Tamil

Nadu (USAID/OFDA)

750,000.00 CRS United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

2,100,000.00 RC/Indonesia United States of

America

(India) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

50,000.00 India RC United States of

America

(Maldives) In kind - emergency relief supplies 44,250.00 UNICEF United States of

America

(Maldives) In kind - emergency relief supplies 42,250.00 UNICEF United States of

America

 

(Indonesia) Targeting/monitoring of emergency

releif supplies (USAID/Indonesia)

100,000.00 ICMC United States of

America

(Indonesia) Health (4 mobile clinics)

(USAID/Indonesia)

237,000.00 PCI United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) In kind - emergency relief supplies 5,400.00 IFRC United States of

America

(Indonesia) Providing temporary shelter ,

non-food items (in particular blankets, kitchen

sets, mattresses, stoves and plastic

sheeting)and reconstruction of houses to those

displaced by the earthquake and tsunamis in

Indonesia (USAID/OFDA)

2,000,000.00 UNHCR United States of

America

(Region) Awaiting allocation to specific country

and sector/project

2,000,000.00 ILO United States of

America

(Indonesia) Emergency response activities

(USAID/OFDA)

908,942.00 SC - US United States of

America

(Region) Response to emergency appeal

(USAID/OFDA)

4,000,000.00 IFRC United States of

America

(Indonesia) Psycho-social support for children

(USAID/OFDA)

221,375.00 CWS United States of

America

(Indonesia) In kind - emergency relief supplies

to Sumatra (USAID/OFDA)

13,650.00 RC/Indonesia United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) In kind - emergency relief supplies 44,450.00 IFRC United States of

America

(Seychelles) Emergency relief activities

(USAID/OFDA)

50,000.00 Seychelles RC United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Emergency relief activities -

Cash-for-work (USAID/OFDA)

22,500,000.00 USAID/DART United States of

America

(India) Administrative - (USAID/OFDA) 33,000.00 USAID United States of

America

(Indonesia) In kind - emergency relief supplies

to Sumatra (USAID/OFDA)

35,650.00 RC/Indonesia United States of

America

(Indonesia) Shelter, health, water and trauma

counseling (USAID/Indonesia)

250,000.00 MCI United States of

America

(Sri Lanka) Clean-up of debris (USAID/OTI) 57,962.00 NGOs United States of

America

(Indonesia) HIC in Sumatra 250,000.00 OCHA United States of

America

[DBAHO]

Got a total figure on that Southsider?

[southsider2k5]

Last time I checked you weren't calling the US government ineffective, the Catholic Church Godless, or accusing Bill Gates of stomping puppies (couldn't really think of a good analogy for Microsoft, its early) because of the bad things they do.

 

Yet you're making a judgment call about an entire multinational organization because of the actions of a few people on the take.

 

I love how Oil For Food is now used as a justification after the fact of invasion, and used to explain why Russia and France were so hesitant to allow force involved. Because it neglects the fact that they were right this whole time. The weapons that the US thought were there simply were not there. And Russia and France didn't believe they were there. Last time I checked, Russia and France were right on that score.

 

Actually I would totally agree with your first two characterizations, and would wonder about the 3rd.

 

The US government is ineffective(and incredibly ineffecient), the Catholic church by and large is Godless, and it wouldn't surprise me if Gates stomped puppies after getting back some of the Anti-trust decesions back.

 

And as to the whole France and Russia being right thing... I guess it is back to the ends justifying the means. It is the same reason people with interesting in Haliburton wanted the war in the first place, they know where their bread is buttered. Yes, I truely believe that a country can be motivated by greed. Why is that so hard to believe?

[southsider2k5]

Got a total figure on that Southsider? 

 

I was shocked how much other stuff there was besides the $350 million. I was also trying to find a total for all of the military equiptment that we using as relief aid also... I remember reading that one of the choppers we have down there costs $4000 per hour just to operate.

[mreye]

Got a total figure on that Southsider? 

I came up with

 

$362,090,100