Soxfest Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Cub pitching elite, K.Wood never has won over 14 games, Prior is a MAJOR question mark and Zambrano is very good, Maddux is wearing down. Sox staff could really suprise Garland is the weak link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 my favorite part of the article is the ending. Basically says the teams are a push, then gives the Sox the nod in speed and defense and the Cubs the nod in pitching, thus giving the Cubs the theoretical edge... Problem with this "logic" is it completely ignores that the real reason the Cubs lost last year was the fact they couldn't play defense or generate runs (which speed/stolen bases helps with). Cubs played a lot of games down the stretch last year in extra innings when they had runners in scoring position, but couldn't move them along. The 2nd biggest joke is that the Sox barely have an edge in the bull-pen, that's just plain insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(TheDybber @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 10:07 AM) 1B: Push 2B: should go to Walker if only because we have never seen Iguchi in the majors yet. 3B: Aramis until Crede does something with the bat SS: In the past, Nomar. As of right now, push. LF: Pods CF: Rowand, but if this "Potential" ever comes out, Patterson prolly will overtake Rowand on sheer talent. That's a BIG IF. RF: Dye Starting Pitching: Push. Relief Pitching: Sox, but not by as much as some people here think. Bench: Sox I've got White Sox 5, Cubs 2 and 3 push. Oh Cubune, money can't buy happiness. The Trib isn't the only one with a bias problem. We all are guilty. You have to be truly objective to compare the two teams, and there are very few of us who are capable of doing so. I'll do my best. 1B: Sox - PK > D.Lee - It's close, what D.Lee lacks in power compared to Konerko he makes up for with average, speed, and slightly better defense. 2B: Cubs - Walker > Iguchi - Although Walker isn't great, Iguchi is an unproven commodity. SS: Cubs - Nomar >> Uribe - I don't know how anyone could call Uribe equal to Nomar. They're equal defensively, and Uribe has a little bit more power, however Nomar's average, leadership qualities, and the ability to hit anywhere in the lineup puts him far above Uribe. 3B: Cubs - Ramirez >>> Crede - Ramirez is the best Cubs starter, Crede is the worst Sox starter. C: Equal - Pierz = Barrett - Pierz and Barrett are both offensive minded, defensively weaker catchers. Pierz has better RBI potential, while Barrett has higher average potential. LF: Sox - Pods > Hairston - Pods has a tool that very few baseball players have. Hairston is fast, but he doesn't have the stealing instincts. It depends on whether or not Pods can get his average back up, but since Hairston is probably going to have trouble staying healthy, Pods takes it away. CF: Sox - Rowand >> Patterson - Rowand has all the tools, Patterson has all the tools but hasn't put it all together. RF: Sox - Dye >> Burnitz - Burnitz is hack city, Dye has to stay healthy. Bench: Everett, Gload, Perez, Harris, Davis > Hollandsworth, Dubois, Blanco, Perez, Macias - Both benches are solid and deep, the Cubs have a little more versatility, but the Sox have guys on the bench that could play every day. Starting Pitching - Zambrano, Wood, Prior, Maddux, Rusch > Buerhle, Garcia, Hernandez, Contreras, Garland - Zambrano is really the only thing that makes the Cubs rotation better, Buerhle's great but Zambrano is a real number 1 guy. Wood and Prior are overrated, but you can't say that Garcia and Hernandez are better, I'd say they're pretty equal. Maddux beats out Contreras for number 4, and Garland topples Rusch for number 5. Relief Pitching - Takatsu, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino, Politte, Adkins > Dempster, Hawkins, Remlinger, Farnsworth, Leicester, Wellemeyer - The Cubs don't have a proven closer, and that alone makes the Sox better. If you look at it though, the rest of the bullpen is pretty close. Marte is far and above better than Remlinger, Hawkins is far and above better than Hermanson (unless he's closing). Vizcaino beats Farnsworth, Politte and Leicester are equal, and Wellemeyer and Adkins are equal. Skin me if you want for giving the Cubs some credit, but the bottom line is that they've got good players. However, good players don't win ballgames, make the playoffs, or win the world series. Good teams do. I feel that the Sox have the better team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(WSFAN35 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 01:05 PM) C: Equal - Pierz = Barrett - Pierz and Barrett are both offensive minded, defensively weaker catchers. Pierz has better RBI potential, while Barrett has higher average potential. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Based on what? AJ was a career .300 hitter before his dissapointing season in SF last year. Barrett is a career .260 hitter even after his good year with the Cubs last season. In 529 career innings playing catcher, Barrett has 44 passed balls, 31 errors, has allowed 311 stolen bases, and has thrown out 101, 24.5% CS. In 534 career in playing catcher, AJ has 23 passed balls, 20 errors, has allowed 197 stolen bases, and has thrown out 82, 29.4% CS. How much longer is Korey Patheticson going to get by on that "potential" bulls***? Take a look at this; Bad Year for Scott Podsednik: .313 OBP, 70 SB Carrer stats for Korey Patheticson: .303 OBP, 71 SB :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 SS: Cubs - Nomar >> Uribe - I don't know how anyone could call Uribe equal to Nomar. They're equal defensively, and Uribe has a little bit more power, however Nomar's average, leadership qualities, and the ability to hit anywhere in the lineup puts him far above Uribe. Nomar is nowhere near the defensive shortstop Uribe is. Uribe has much better range, and a much, much better arm... Nomar obviously with the edge on offense, but there's no way you can say that Nomar is better than Uribe defensively. And, responding to another thread -- Timo sucks defensively. His only plus is his strong arm. That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 01:14 PM) Based on what? AJ was a career .300 hitter before his dissapointing season in SF last year. Barrett is a career .260 hitter even after his good year with the Cubs last season. In 529 career innings playing catcher, Barrett has 44 passed balls, 31 errors, has allowed 311 stolen bases, and has thrown out 101, 24.5% CS. In 534 career in playing catcher, AJ has 23 passed balls, 20 errors, has allowed 197 stolen bases, and has thrown out 82, 29.4% CS. How much longer is Korey Patheticson going to get by on that "potential" bulls***. Take a look at this; Bad Year for Scott Podsednik: .313 OBP, 70 SB Carrer stats for Korey Patheticson: .303 OBP, 71 SB :fthecubs Barrett has been hurt for much of his career, he got better defensively as the season went on. I watched him play alot of games, and I happen to feel that he's an excellent hitter for a catcher. If he stays healthy, he and Pierz will have very similar numbers. Remember when everyone called a center fielder named Aaron Rowand pathetic, a guy who was just getting by on potential who couldn't put it together? Patterson has his problems, but just like every young player with baseball skills he can break out at any time. I'm not defending the cubs here, I'm just trying to be objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevHead0881 Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(WSFAN35 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 07:05 PM) The Trib isn't the only one with a bias problem. We all are guilty. You have to be truly objective to compare the two teams, and there are very few of us who are capable of doing so. I'll do my best. 1B: Sox - PK > D.Lee - It's close, what D.Lee lacks in power compared to Konerko he makes up for with average, speed, and slightly better defense. 2B: Cubs - Walker > Iguchi - Although Walker isn't great, Iguchi is an unproven commodity. SS: Cubs - Nomar >> Uribe - I don't know how anyone could call Uribe equal to Nomar. They're equal defensively, and Uribe has a little bit more power, however Nomar's average, leadership qualities, and the ability to hit anywhere in the lineup puts him far above Uribe. 3B: Cubs - Ramirez >>> Crede - Ramirez is the best Cubs starter, Crede is the worst Sox starter. C: Equal - Pierz = Barrett - Pierz and Barrett are both offensive minded, defensively weaker catchers. Pierz has better RBI potential, while Barrett has higher average potential. LF: Sox - Pods > Hairston - Pods has a tool that very few baseball players have. Hairston is fast, but he doesn't have the stealing instincts. It depends on whether or not Pods can get his average back up, but since Hairston is probably going to have trouble staying healthy, Pods takes it away. CF: Sox - Rowand >> Patterson - Rowand has all the tools, Patterson has all the tools but hasn't put it all together. RF: Sox - Dye >> Burnitz - Burnitz is hack city, Dye has to stay healthy. Bench: Everett, Gload, Perez, Harris, Davis > Hollandsworth, Dubois, Blanco, Perez, Macias - Both benches are solid and deep, the Cubs have a little more versatility, but the Sox have guys on the bench that could play every day. Starting Pitching - Zambrano, Wood, Prior, Maddux, Rusch > Buerhle, Garcia, Hernandez, Contreras, Garland - Zambrano is really the only thing that makes the Cubs rotation better, Buerhle's great but Zambrano is a real number 1 guy. Wood and Prior are overrated, but you can't say that Garcia and Hernandez are better, I'd say they're pretty equal. Maddux beats out Contreras for number 4, and Garland topples Rusch for number 5. Relief Pitching - Takatsu, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino, Politte, Adkins > Dempster, Hawkins, Remlinger, Farnsworth, Leicester, Wellemeyer - The Cubs don't have a proven closer, and that alone makes the Sox better. If you look at it though, the rest of the bullpen is pretty close. Marte is far and above better than Remlinger, Hawkins is far and above better than Hermanson (unless he's closing). Vizcaino beats Farnsworth, Politte and Leicester are equal, and Wellemeyer and Adkins are equal. Skin me if you want for giving the Cubs some credit, but the bottom line is that they've got good players. However, good players don't win ballgames, make the playoffs, or win the world series. Good teams do. I feel that the Sox have the better team. I basically agree with you on all of these. The only exception is that I still give AJ the edge over Barrett. Until last year, Barrett was an average at best catcher, offensively and defensively. All I know is that if it came down to needing a big hit or a big play defensively, I'd take AJ over Barrett. To be honest, the Trib's actual selections didn't bother me so much, although I disagree with a few of them. But at least get the f***ing positions straight. For this guy to be one of the Trib's baseball experts and not know that SPod will be in left and Rowand will be in Center is rediculous. It just shows that he hasn't been paying attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 01:20 PM) Nomar is nowhere near the defensive shortstop Uribe is. Uribe has much better range, and a much, much better arm... Nomar obviously with the edge on offense, but there's no way you can say that Nomar is better than Uribe defensively. And, responding to another thread -- Timo sucks defensively. His only plus is his strong arm. That's it. I didn't say that Nomar was better than Uribe defensively. I said they were equal, which was a mistake on my part. Timo doesn't suck defensively, he's sloppy, but he makes plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Comparing teams position by position and then determining the better team by counting who had more advantages is stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(WSFAN35 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 07:25 PM) I didn't say that Nomar was better than Uribe defensively. I said they were equal, which was a mistake on my part. Timo doesn't suck defensively, he's sloppy, but he makes plays. He 'makes plays' because he gets bad reads on the ball, and has absolutely no range, meaning he needs to make up for it by diving for the ball. But, I'm not going to convince you, nor vice versa -- so agree to disagree. At least we can agree that Uribe is the better defensive shortstop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(3E8 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 01:30 PM) Comparing teams position by position and then determining the better team by counting who had more advantages is stupid. Agreed. QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 01:30 PM) He 'makes plays' because he gets bad reads on the ball, and has absolutely no range, meaning he needs to make up for it by diving for the ball. But, I'm not going to convince you, nor vice versa -- so agree to disagree. At least we can agree that Uribe is the better defensive shortstop... Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(WSFAN35 @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 07:31 PM) Agreed. Agreed Done and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 For the past few years, Dye has been one of the worst RF's when it comes to range. EDIT: I'm just throwing this out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I hate matching teams up position by position it's a horrible way to compare teams imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I think it's obvious we are a more complete teams. On a side not the funny part is that the same problem that we had the last 3 years will be the same problem the cubs will have next year. I think Rusch is kind of like Schoey was. He's ok out of the pen and maybe a spot start or two but no way is he going to be make it starting the whole year. At least we will be able to mock them about it now that the shoe is on the other foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 1B: Koney even with D Lee - Koney more RBI, Lee more R 2B: Walker even with Iggy - Walker more RBI, Iggy more R 3B: Ramirez over Crede SS: Nomar over Uribe LF: Pods over Cub trio CF: Rowand over Patterson RF: Dye over Burnitz C: AJP over Barrett - We know what Barrett can do at Wrigley. AJ's potential at the Cell gives him the edge. SP: KW, MP, CZ, GM, GR over MB, FG, OH, JC, & JG. Sox have the health & durability edge, but if that holds up for the Cub they have the edge. RP: Obviously the Sox. The Cub have nothing but ? marks at closer & may have damaged Hawkins as a setup guy. With the loss of Sammy, & Alou, the Cub will be scratching out runs. That's going to put even greater pressure on their pen & if you were to ask which pen is more likely to crack it's the Cubs. DH: Sox. More so this year than previous years. The Chi-Town series: No offense to the Trib, but they should at least look at the matchups. KW vs 05 Sox: .280BA .407O .467S MP vs 05 Sox: .317BA .310O .488S CZ vs 05 Sox: .241BA .348O .380S GM vs 05 Sox: .260BA .306O .341S GR vs 05 Sox: .235BA .291O .353S This is where AJ, Pods, Timo, Everett, & Uribe come into play. MB vs 05 Cub: .279BA .326O .465S FG vs 05 Cub: .185BA .258O .259S - He owns Nomar OH vs 05 Cub: .385BA .412O .569S - Hairston & Nomar own him JC vs 05 Cub: .333BA .474O .467S - unknown. No Cub has 10 ab. JG vs 05 Cub: .197BA .239O .328S - 1 HR, 7 RBI in 61AB It depends on the matchups of course but if it fell: MB vs KW (2) , FG vs MP , OH vs CZ , JC vs GM , JG vs GR I give the Sox a 4-2 edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Its from the trib. How can they say that the Sox are better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 we won many of the comparisons with the Cubs last year. What did it prove? Nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 It doesnt really matter what they say. People read the trib and adopt its opinions. They own the cubs, and therefor need to make the fan base feel good about their terrible offseason. The best way they thought they could do this was in a comparison to the SOX. One of the opening lines in the article was that the cubs are focusing on OBP and defense, just like the sox. If you call signing Burnitz an increase in OBP then I need to learn something about baseball. They have arguabley the worst defensive infield in the NL with Nomar, Error Ramirez, and Walker, yet the Trib points out that their focus was defense. It is nothing but advertising for the team. I say f*** them, lets just kick the s*** out of them this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Comparing position by position is a good way to compare yeams. It gives you a head to head comparison ............ IF you are talking defense. Then compare the line up batter by batter. Finish up by comparing rotation, bullpen and bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 01:14 PM) Based on what? AJ was a career .300 hitter before his dissapointing season in SF last year. Barrett is a career .260 hitter even after his good year with the Cubs last season. In 529 career innings playing catcher, Barrett has 44 passed balls, 31 errors, has allowed 311 stolen bases, and has thrown out 101, 24.5% CS. In 534 career in playing catcher, AJ has 23 passed balls, 20 errors, has allowed 197 stolen bases, and has thrown out 82, 29.4% CS. Pierz is so damn underated defensively as a catcher it's not even funny. From what i have seen he moves around back there pretty well and seems to block everything in the dirt. I have seen very few better in the past five years better at blocking balls in the dirt. Why is it always said he is a bad catcher? Because of his weak arm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 03:39 PM) Pierz is so damn underated defensively as a catcher it's not even funny. From what i have seen he moves around back there pretty well and seems to block everything in the dirt. I have seen very few better in the past five years better at blocking balls in the dirt. Why is it always said he is a bad catcher? Because of his weak arm? No fricken kidding, I'm with you 100 percent, it really drives me up a wall when people say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxmatt Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 4, 2005 -> 02:05 PM) 2B: Walker even with Iggy - Walker more RBI, Iggy more R Walker > Iguchi You cant compare the two when one was in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxman352000 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Most of its good analysis but I think we should have gotten a bigger edge when it comes to the bullpen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxmatt Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Why do they think dempster is their savior in the BP? He came off a huge injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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