Parting shots from Maggs

[Texsox]

I was the woman, so I was there, and Ozzie never commented one bit during the time I was "scolding" Kenny, so I was not aware of his comments made after the fact.

 

And I don't feel the need to call anyone an ass for not returning calls.. it's none of my business... and I question your motivation in making that the issue when I have clearly stated over and over again that it's because he lied that I don't have any respect for him any longer. You don't agree with me.. so be it.

Interesting behavior here..

 

now it's none of your business.You first mentioned the lack of phone calls. I didn't. Now that that has been tossed aside, you wish to talk about my motivation LMAO.

 

I believe both parties went in different directions. The Sox with Dye, Maggs with Detroit. Both sides looked out for their best interest, and that caused some swipes on both sides. I'm excited about the new look team and cannot wait for the season to begin. I realize the Sox will never have a guy making a top 20 type contract. He'll be traded or leave via free agency. It's the only was a small market team can compete. Balance. In the PR battle the Sox won. An All-Star leaves with nothing to show for it and the fans are happy. Hell, from the sounds of some fans here, they are happier to see Maggs leave than Billy Botch.

[tonyho7476]

yuk, yuk, yuk... 

 

Steff, you should just post a naked picture of yourself, here, so that we all have proof you are still a woman. Nothing like setting the record straight!

[Texsox]

Steff, you should just post a naked picture of yourself, here, so that we all have proof you are still a woman.  Nothing like setting the record straight!

 

we got rules about that. It needs to be posted in the Hot Chick forum

[Steff]

now it's none of your business.You first mentioned the lack of phone calls. I didn't. Now that that has been tossed aside, you wish to talk about my motivation LMAO. 

 

 

 

 

Your right I did.. noting that he didn't call them to advise them of his surgery. After I have said (three times in this thread alone) that him lying is my main beef with him.

 

I didn't say a word about your motivation..

[tonyho7476]

we got rules about that. It needs to be posted in the Hot Chick forum

 

Hot Chick Forum? Nudity should be encouraged everywhere and anywhere. Steff, feel free to post away. This is america. For Liberty and Nudity for all.

 

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I hope you guys that want Maggs to get injured lose your fingers in a fiery smores accident.

[Texsox]

and I question your motivation in making that the issue

 

Yes you did and this is getting silly.

 

Steff, you are correct, Maggs could have done this better, and IMHO the team could have done this better. However, bottom line, he was not going to be playing for the Sox again, no matter what both sides did. At the time contract talks ended, and with his previous 6 seasons, he was going to command top free agent dollars from someone. If he had not been injured, he really would have hit the jackpot. And the Sox are not a jackpot type team.

[Steff]

Yes you did and this is getting silly.

 

Steff, you are correct, Maggs could have done this better, and IMHO the team could have done this better. However, bottom line, he was not going to be playing for the Sox again, no matter what both sides did. At the time contract talks ended, and with his previous 6 seasons, he was going to command top free agent dollars from someone. If he had not been injured, he really would have hit the jackpot. And the Sox are not a jackpot type team.

 

 

 

My apologies as I thought you were referring to the "interesting behavior" comment.

 

 

Silly...?? Maybe. Eye opening, that's for sure.

[Texsox]

My apologies as I thought you were referring to the "interesting behavior" comment.

Silly...??  Maybe. Eye opening, that's for sure.

 

eye opening? Eye've been pretty consistent all along in my read on the Maggs contract, as have you. In hindsight, I thought he should have signed the last Sox offer, he gambled and I thought he was going to loose the gamble. He may still loose the gamble if his knee doesn't heal. I think if he stayed healthy he would have won the gamble. I also think the team is better off without Maggs undercontract, if the total salary dollars weren't going to rise.

 

I saw a pr battle between Boras and the Sox. It is any easy battle for the Sox to win. Hated agent, All-star player wanting a huge contract vs. our favorite team.

 

I think the team would be better with a healthy Maggs instead of Everett. But we cannot have everyone else and Maggs. Only teams like the Yankees and Red Sox can spend that kind of money.

 

Not returning calls? No big deal to me. Not volunteering information after he was ruled out for the season and the end of the contract? No big deal to me. I didn't hear anyone on the Sox claim he was healthier than he claimed, they all seemed to agree he couldn't play. I would be surprised if the team asked for information they were legally entitled to and didn't get it.

[southsider2k5]

Hot Chick Forum?  Nudity should be encouraged everywhere and anywhere.  Steff, feel free to post away.  This is america.  For Liberty and Nudity for all.

 

 

Careful you are going to get a naked Critic picture on here... :puke

[JUGGERNAUT]

Well this is the happening thread & once again I'm late to the party.

Well better late than never. Obviously my comments are going to be directed mostly to Texsox who seems to want to take pot shots at the AMA & FDA in an effort to defend Maggs. But I will expand to other areas as well.

 

Tex, there is good reason why the procedure has not been approved in the US: insufficient clinical data to warrant approval. The reason why it takes so long is because the US has more healthcare related suits filed each year than any other nation on the planet. In fact the numbers drawf all of the EU itself. We are a nation with people like you who support students who want to sue their board districts to get out of homework & sue cookie makers & fast food joints because they made them fat. So for you to suggest that it's somehow wrong for the FDA & AMA to insist on LONG-TERM clinical research before approving a drug or procedure is laughable.

 

The reason why no other team was willing to over more than 30M/5 (The Mets best offer) & the reason why Detroit has signed him to a voidable contract if he can't play is because the procedure is controversial with little to no data supporting the long-term effects. It might just be a quick fix that will have dire consequences down the road. Not unlike procedures involving steroids.

 

I feel no ill will toward Maggs. I am happy he's gone. I never felt he was consistent enough month to month to warrant 14M/yr. When I am paying a player double digit millions a year I expect them to produce at least a 925+ OPS each & every month. Maggs didn't do that. Like Sosa he had his power months, & then his mediocre ones. I realize the Sox are hard pressed to support a 70M+ payroll every year. The writing is on the wall when the team ranks in the bottom 10 in attendance every year. Try & keep in mind it's the local media revenue that gets shared with the rest of the league. Not the gate. That hurts the Sox probably more than any other team in MLB.

 

The fact that Illich did this contract is really a no-brainer. On the surface it looks insane but we have to put things in perspective. His Red Wings are locked out. When they return it will come at a much lower cost. That creates an unexpected windfall of cash to burn for this owner. The signing gives them a marketable star as long as he can play well. I do believe he will play well. No where near the 15M level but if he can play he should perform on par with what he did before he was injured in 04.

.302BA .357O .503S About a mid 800 OPS player. What's that worth?

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that MLB is a financially irresponsible sports league. How many teams have really paid for signing the big FA contracts? I can't think of too many. Owners are crazy. Dumping & trading for big contracts is happening all the time. Look at how Hicks got out of the A-ROD deal. The consensus was that would never happen.

As long as you have players other teams want there really is no such thing as a long-term commitment in MLB any more. There is no such thing really as a no-trade agreement. Nearly all of them now act as limited ones. No one wants to play for a team that doesn't want them any more.

 

If Maggs can play at a mid-800 level & the Tigs still suck then Illich will be able to move the contract. Given Illich's overall situation this was a good move to make.

[The Critic]

Careful you are going to get a naked Critic picture on here... :puke

Loosely quoting Slap Shot:

"I'm gonna do it! I'm gonna wiggle my dick at 'em, and when I do, EVERY woman in that room with the exception of my wife is gonna run screaming for the exits!!"

 

I seriously would NEVER subject anyone to the horror that is a naked Critic!!!!

[Texsox]

Well Juggs here is what I wrote

The US has the longest approval process of any country before a drug or treatment is authorized. People have been going over seas for new and innovative procedures for a long time. There are Doctors in other countries. Shocking as it is. There are actual hospitals and everything. They don't use leeches and treat illness by having a barber practice bloodletting.

 

Potshots?

 

Which statement exactly are you disagreeing with?

1. The US has the longest approval?

2. People go overseas for treatment? Cancer and AIDS treatments come immediately to mind.

3. There are Doctors

4. There are hospitals?

5. They have modern techniques and everything?

 

Medical innovations happen all over the world. Thinking the US has a monopoly on medical talent and breakthroughs is small minded.

 

And for the record, I did not support the kid suing the school board, I supported the position that if the school is going to require CALCULUS homework, they need to have the teachers available as well. Just giving kids assignments and zero instruction is stupid.

 

But then again, given your history of ignoring facts and common sense, why am I not surprised you would twist and distort statements?

Edited February 7, 2005 by Texsox

[RockRaines]

You mean to tell me that he didn't like being treated like an endanger servant?  What you mean the Great KW.. actually did this? NOOOOO Never  .. Mags, came out with the truth again, you people don't like it.. its that simple.  The people that are ripping  on mags reminds of some other fans on the other side of town that turned on their "superstar". Lets not become like them, time to blame the real problem in this mess.. KW.

 

Wow, siding with Maggs is a pretty thin way to hate on KW, we all know you hate him, but in this case, Maggs was wrong. He could have signed with us, he didnt, he could of been honest with us, so we could offer him arbitration, he wasnt. Face it, KW played his cards right in this situation and the Tigers got stuck with yet another bad contract.

[Guest JimH]

Wow, siding with Maggs is a pretty thin way to hate on KW, we all know you hate him, but in this case, Maggs was wrong.  He could have signed with us, he didnt, he could of been honest with us, so we could offer him arbitration, he wasnt.  Face it, KW played his cards right in this situation and the Tigers got stuck with yet another bad contract.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Seems to me this guy will spin every single discussion into a "it's Ken Williams fault" summary judgement.

 

It also seems to me he knows this will get a reaction from numerous people on this site who feel that's ridiculous.

 

Lastly, it's my opinion he enjoys the ensuing arguments.

 

Personally, the One Trick Pony I Hate KW approach has long ceased to interest me. Yawn.

[JUGGERNAUT]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Read your post again & then try & convince me that your tone is not sarcastic towards the approval process for healthcare goods & services in America. I noticed you didn't bother to mention a thing about the legal aspects of America's healthcare system & how that burdens the system as whole.

 

As for medical innovation overseas I don't see one line of what I wrote that suggests anything sarcastic towards that. But since you brought it up I agree with you. America not only doesn't have a monopoly on healthcare but in many areas is falling behind other countries. Innovation is occuring in Japan at a brisk rate.

 

As for the homework debate, I'm sorry but Calculus is not a mandatory class nor one that does not require pre-requisites. You must both apply & qualify to be admitted into the class. It's not out of the ordinary for this to happen at a university & Calculus would certainly qualify as a college-prep class. Likewise since it's just homework the teacher doesn't have to be there as long as the student as some form of tutoring available to them from the school.

 

I know it is difficult for your personality type but do try to respond in an intelligent manner void of personal attacks. When you make such references as ignoring facts & common sense you only insult yourself. There is rarely a post made by me in this forum that doesn't include some statistical & fact based reference. Common sense is a relative term relating to the majority. Since you tend to always reject majority opinion in your posts you might want to try moral relativist thinking as a phrase instead.

[ptatc]

Whether or not it's justified, Maggs is pissed at the team, not the fan base. I'm neutral, then again it takes a lot for me to boo anyone on the filed.

 

 

I am new to this board and have not posted before so forgive me if iI don't get the mechanics corrcect. Here are a few things you must remember about the Maggs situation from a medical point of view:

 

1. Maggs did have a procedure done on his knee that is not approved in the US for his condition. It is approved in the US for some conditions such as heel spurs.

 

2. He did get the name of the doc in Austria from a podiatrist in the Sox employ, however this was without the Sox knowledge and he has since beend dismissed from their group.

 

3. KW did say the condition was worse then they though because it was originally diagnosed as a meniscus tear, which he also had a secong surgery on while in Austira.

 

4. this type of injury is rare in an athlete and could very well shorten his career by years.

 

5.The common surgery for this condition approved in the US is to drill holes in the bone in an attempt to improve the blood supply to the area. This procedure theoertically speeds up the rehab by about three months because it is non-invasive.

 

I will be watching his progress with interest but I'm doubtful as to how his knee will perform 3-4 years down the road.

[RockRaines]

Read your post again & then try & convince me that your tone is not sarcastic towards the approval process for healthcare goods & services in America.  I noticed you didn't bother to mention a thing about the legal aspects of America's healthcare system & how that burdens the system as whole. 

 

As for medical innovation overseas I don't see one line of what I wrote that suggests anything sarcastic towards that.  But since you brought it up I agree with you.  America not only doesn't have a monopoly on healthcare but in many areas is falling behind other countries.  Innovation is occuring in Japan at a brisk rate.

 

As for the homework debate, I'm sorry but Calculus is not a mandatory class nor one that does not require pre-requisites.  You must both apply & qualify to be admitted into the class.  It's not out of the ordinary for this to happen at a university & Calculus would certainly qualify as a college-prep class. Likewise since it's just homework the teacher doesn't have to be there as long as the student as some form of tutoring available to them from the school.

 

Read your post again, and then try to convince me it has any relevance to the SOX. I just wasted 2 minutes of my life reading that post that I can never get back. :headshake

[southsider2k5]

Welcome to Soxtalk

[Texsox]

Read your post again & then try & convince me that your tone is not sarcastic towards the approval process for health care goods & services in America.  I noticed you didn't bother to mention a thing about the legal aspects of America's health care system & how that burdens the system as whole. 

 

As for medical innovation overseas I don't see one line of what I wrote that suggests anything sarcastic towards that.  But since you brought it up I agree with you.  America not only doesn't have a monopoly on health care but in many areas is falling behind other countries.  Innovation is occuring in Japan at a brisk rate.

 

As for the homework debate, I'm sorry but Calculus is not a mandatory class nor one that does not require pre-requisites.  You must both apply & qualify to be admitted into the class.  It's not out of the ordinary for this to happen at a university & Calculus would certainly qualify as a college-prep class. Likewise since it's just homework the teacher doesn't have to be there as long as the student as some form of tutoring available to them from the school.

 

My sarcasm is for people who think that overseas medical treatments are somehow inferior, risky, and below par. My statement is the US has the longest approval process. You seem to think it is because of lawsuit abuse, and I would agree. If that's the case, then more reason that overseas would be a safe alternative while the medical companies practice CYA by generating additional reams of paper. Overall the US has the greatest medical system for those that can afford it. There are times, however, when alternate courses of treatment are available and are better for that particular individual. The best US Surgeons and Doctors couldn't get Jose Maria Olazabel walking again. A Doctor in Germany did.

 

I haven't read to the contrary, but it would seem the conventional drilling holes in the bone treatment would still be available after this treatment was tried.

 

The student sued regarding a summer homework assignment for a calculus class in High School. There was no tutoring available over the summer. I agree with the summer reading assignments, I disagree with summer homework assignments in the sciences and math without some mechanism for tutoring. If all it took was reading a book and doing assignments, why have teachers?

[Guest JimH]

I am new to this board and have not posted before so forgive me if iI don't get the mechanics corrcect. Here are a few things you must remember about the Maggs situation from a medical point of view:

 

1. Maggs did have a procedure done on his knee that is not approved in the US for his condition. It is approved in the US for some conditions such as heel spurs.

 

2. He did get the name of the doc in Austria from a podiatrist in the Sox employ, however this was without the Sox knowledge and he has since beend dismissed from their group.

 

3. KW did say the condition was worse then they though because it was originally diagnosed as a meniscus tear, which he also had a secong surgery on while in Austira.

 

4. this type of injury is rare in an athlete and could very well shorten his career by years.

 

5.The common surgery for this condition approved in the US is to drill holes in the bone in an attempt to improve the blood supply to the area. This procedure theoertically speeds up the rehab by about three months because it is non-invasive.

 

I will be watching his progress with interest but I'm doubtful as to how his knee will perform 3-4 years down the road.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great post, concise and to the point. Please post more.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I am new to this board and have not posted before so forgive me if iI don't get the mechanics corrcect. Here are a few things you must remember about the Maggs situation from a medical point of view:

 

1. Maggs did have a procedure done on his knee that is not approved in the US for his condition. It is approved in the US for some conditions such as heel spurs.

 

2. He did get the name of the doc in Austria from a podiatrist in the Sox employ, however this was without the Sox knowledge and he has since beend dismissed from their group.

 

3. KW did say the condition was worse then they though because it was originally diagnosed as a meniscus tear, which he also had a secong surgery on while in Austira.

 

4. this type of injury is rare in an athlete and could very well shorten his career by years.

 

5.The common surgery for this condition approved in the US is to drill holes in the bone in an attempt to improve the blood supply to the area. This procedure theoertically speeds up the rehab by about three months because it is non-invasive.

 

I will be watching his progress with interest but I'm doubtful as to how his knee will perform 3-4 years down the road.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank You. Very informative & fact based. I agree with you. His long term ability to play MLB is doubtful. But I believe Illich has structured the contract such that if he's unable to play it's voidable. Maggs will not decide. Detroit's medical staff will. That is why I say if he's cleared to play he should put up mid-800's. His knee will never be as strong as it once was & that will hurt his overall production. Detroit might even be looking at a situation where Maggs is primarily a DH 3-4 yrs down the road.

 

The arbitration argument is interesting. As I understand even after the collision & after the first diagnosis a 58/5 deal remained on the table. That's a little under 12M a year. If I'm not mistaken a team can offer as little as 20-25% less than the previous yr's salary. That would be around 12M. Very close to the offer that was there in the summer. Should the Sox have done that? Because it's an arbitration award it's unvoidable. Whether Maggs could play or not he would have cost the Sox 12M.

It's a tough call. Putting the business aside there needs to be a certain level of trust between a player & his agent & the team. I think during his time with the Sox Maggs probably earned that trust. I never heard a bad word about him until this last yr during the contract negotiations. For him to mention this it sounds like he would have accepted the offer even with it paying him less. If that's true then I don't think you can fault him or his desire to remain in Chicago & play for the Sox. If this were just about Maggs and the Sox I would say KW should have offered him arbitration.

 

But it's not. Even with Maggs gone the Sox did a salary purge with C Lee. It's safe to say that 12M to Maggs means no El Duque, no AJP, & no Iggy. It's highly doubtful Maggs will return to a 30/300/100 form again. So it amounts to spending 12M on a player most likely to perform below C Lee's level. With the OF depth in the Sox organization I think KW made the right move.

[ptatc]

My sarcasm is for people who think that overseas medical treatments are somehow inferior, risky, and below par. My statement is the US has the longest approval process. You seem to think it is because of lawsuit abuse, and I would agree. If that's the case, then more reason that overseas would be a safe alternative while the medical companies practice CYA by generating additional reams of paper. Overall the US has the greatest medical system for those that can afford it. There are times, however, when alternate courses of treatment are available and are better for that particular individual. The best US Surgeons and Doctors couldn't get Jose Maria Olazabel walking again. A Doctor in Germany did.

 

I haven't read to the contrary, but it would seem the conventional drilling holes in the bone treatment would still be available after this treatment was tried.

 

The student sued regarding a summer homework assignment for a calculus class in High School. There was no tutoring available over the summer. I agree with the summer reading assignments, I disagree with summer homework assignments in the sciences and math without some mechanism for tutoring. If all it took was reading a book and doing assignments, why have teachers?

 

 

The conventional treatment would be available but then its an 8 month rehab from that poiny. That would waste alot of playing time for Detroit who signed the deal.

 

A doctor in Germany did not get Jose Maria Olazabel walking again. It was a physical therapists in the US working with the Physician who got him walking and playing again.

 

The big difference in medicine between the US and the EU other than the FDA debate is socialized medicine. With socialized medicine many experimental procedures can be done with patients because they will need to wait months to get a conventional procedure. This is a plus for research because many new things can be tried. However, it is a minus for some of the patients because not all of them work. That is why the goal of many employees in the EU contires is to rise far enough in their companies to get private insurance. This doesn't apply everywhere in the EU but it is a common scenario.

 

What does this have to do with the Sox? Nothing except for these are the reasons why Maggs went to Austria and this is why every GM has been rightfully scared of signning him. And why most of the stuff coming out of his agent's mouth is pure horsemanure.

[Steff]

ptatc... First, welcome to Soxtalk.

 

Second.. thanks for the detailed and informative post.

[Texsox]

The conventional treatment would be available but then its an 8 month rehab from that poiny. That would waste alot of playing time for Detroit who signed the deal.

 

A doctor in Germany did not  get Jose Maria Olazabel walking again. It was a physical therapists in the US working with the Physician who got him walking and playing again.

 

The big difference in medicine between the US and the EU other than the FDA debate is socialized medicine. With socialized medicine many experimental procedures can be done with patients because they will need to wait months to get a conventional procedure. This is a plus for research because many new things can be tried. However, it is a minus for some of the patients because not all of them work. That is why the goal of many employees in the EU contires is to rise far enough in their companies to get private insurance. This doesn't apply everywhere in the EU but it is a common scenario.

 

What does this have to do with the Sox? Nothing except for these are the reasons why Maggs went to Austria and this is why every GM has been rightfully scared of signning him. And why most of the stuff coming out of his agent's mouth is pure horsemanure.

 

For the record:

Compelled to withdraw from 1995 Ryder Cup through illness, diagnosed as rheumatoid polyarthritis in three joints of right foot and two in left. Later received treatment in Munich from Doctor Hans-Wilhelm Muller-Wohlfahrt on back which led to winning return after 18-months absence during which he feared he might not walk again let alone play golf.

1996 WAS THE WORST YEAR ON OLI’S PROFESSIONAL LIFE. A TROUBLESOME FOOT INJURY TOOK HIM AWAY FROM GOLF COURSES EVEN MAKING HIM FEAR FOR HIS FUTURE. AT ONE TIME HE WAS UNABLE TO WALK DUE TO SEVERE PAIN.  HE LIVED A REAL NIGHTMARE VISITING QUITE A FEW DOCTORS WITHOUT IMPROVEMENT.  FORTUNATELY HE FINALLY FOUND DOCTOR HW MUELLER WHO MADE THE DIAGNOSIS OF FOOT MUSCLE  ATROPHY SECONDARY TO A LUMBAR DISC HERNIA AND WAS ABLE TO TREAT AND CURE HIM.

Maggs accepted the advice of a US Doctor who was on the Sox payroll. He decided, based on all the treatments available, to try this. I'm not a Doctor, but I suspect if he had this choice at the beginning of his contract he might have choosen the conventional treatment and lost another season or so. I'll bet at that point, the team would have been suggesting the new treatment and hopefully a faster recovery.