Parting shots from Maggs

[Steff]

I'll bet at that point, the team would have been suggesting the new treatment and hopefully a faster recovery.

 

 

 

Unfortunately.. they were not given the choice to express their suggestions.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

 

Yep, as you said... we would not have been able to sign Dye.. I say to you..

THANK FA_KING GOD.. Who wants to place a bet that Maggs will play more games then Dye will this year?

 

 

Dye will play more games, hit more home runs and drive in more runs and play better defense than Jaggs this year.

 

Also, Ordonez trying to recover from this bad knee injury at the age of 31 is gonna be bad. THE TIGERS ARE STONED !

 

OO-E-OO JAAAGGGLIO !

[Dick Allen]

Has Dr. Weil really been dismissed? His website still claims he is the White Sox team podiatrist.

[Texsox]

Unfortunately.. they were not given the choice to express their suggestions.

 

Unfortunate? I think it was fortunate and here is why.

If he was going to be able to play under the current contract they should have been involved. Once it was clear that he was not going to be playing under his current contract, I think the team did the smart thing and stayed out of it. This way Maggs has no one to blame but himself for this course of treatment.

 

Imagine if the Sox recommend a treatment, it goes poorly, and they don't offer him a contract or arbitration? Wouldn't he have a right to complain?

 

The club did the smart thing and stayed out of it.

 

Now if he was under contract for 2005, or there was a chance he could have still played in 2004, the team should have been involved every step of the way. But get involved with a person's treatment for no reason other than you may want to offer him a contract? Not a responsibility I would want to have.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The student sued regarding a summer homework assignment for a calculus class in High School. There was no tutoring available over the summer. I agree with the summer reading assignments, I disagree with summer homework assignments in the sciences and math without some mechanism for tutoring. If all it took was reading a book and doing assignments, why have teachers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's off-topic but let's finish it. I didn't read anything suggesting the school did not provide a tutoring resource over the summer. It's common for tutors to be available during summer school so I find that kind of odd. But let's say your assumption is right. In the absence of a resource the teacher has in effect assigned a take home test. That is likewise not uncommon in universities over breaks. It's a useful means to do skills assessment on students. Even if they seek help on thier own that process will increase their aptitude. So assigning such work is not unjustifiable. What is unjustifiable is grading that work. As long as the teacher assigns such work as Pass/Fail where as long as a reasonable effort is made to work each problem the student passes then the assignment is both reasonable & justifiable. But if the teacher assigns a grade that would impact the student's GPA then I would agree with the student's right to sue the school on that basis. No take home test should ever impact a student's GPA.

 

Back on topic. I guess the bigger question for Sox fans is this.

Let's assume Maggs accepted arbitration from the Sox at 12M. Should that have precluded the Sox from signing El Duque, AJP, or Iggy? Essentially what's being asked is whether retention of Maggs for another year justifies a mid-80's payroll.

I think it does. Grant it the Sox are profiting millions were they can afford to splurge on payroll. But they are operating far below the debt level of most other teams.

We don't talk about that much here & we should. The fact that they play rent free nearly every year means the only real debt they carry forward are player contracts.

They don't have any players with more than 3 yr contracts so their debt level remains consistently amongst the lowest in MLB. So it's not unreasonable for Sox fans to expect a mid revenue low debt team to splurge every now & then.

 

This decision of course has huge ramifications. Retaining Maggs does not preclude Dye from joining the Sox at 10M/2yr. That still would have been a better price than Lee & Dye is capable of playing LF as good as Lee can. So let's assume Dye still signs. Our OF then is Dye, Rowand, Maggs. What do we then get for Lee? What we should have gotten: a starting pitcher.

 

You're just hiding your head in the sand if you don't believe Lee was not worth more than Pods, Vizc, & a PTBNL. Just look at the contracts that were signed this off-season for any RBI producing bat. A team trading for Lee gets 2 yrs at a reasonable price for a near 100 RBI player. Hudson for Lee, cash & prospects it not unreasonable when you consider what Beane eventually got for Hudson. Trading 2 yrs of Lee & prospects for 1 yr of Hudson is not a bad deal. Signing Hudson long term was not out of the question either.

 

So now we have a rotation of Hudson, Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, & Garland.

And an OF of Dye, Rowand, Maggs & an IF of Crede, Uribe, Harris, & Koney.

That probably puts us in the 70M range. Still enough left for Hermanson & AJP but not Iggy.

 

That's a team that offensively rocks & rotation wise kicks ass and pen wise improved.

All for a mid 80 price tag. Pods really needs to prove me wrong this year that KW didn't get fleeced on that trade.

[Texsox]

It's off-topic but let's finish it.  I didn't read anything suggesting the school did not provide a tutoring resource over the summer.  It's common for tutors to be available during summer school so I find that kind of odd. But let's say your assumption is right.  In the absence of a resource the teacher has in effect assigned a take home test.  That is likewise not uncommon in universities over breaks.  It's a useful means to do skills assessment on students.  Even if they seek help on thier own that process will increase their aptitude.  So assigning such work is not unjustifiable.  What is unjustifiable is grading that work.  As long as the teacher assigns such work as Pass/Fail where as long as a reasonable effort is made to work each problem the student passes then the assignment is both reasonable & justifiable. But if the teacher assigns a grade that would impact the student's GPA then I would agree with the student's right to sue the school on that basis.  No take home test should ever impact a student's GPA. 

 

This was a High School class, not University. At least in my kid's cases, the assignment counted towards their grades. Again, the summer reading I agreed with.It is difficult to try and finish a 600 page book during the school year. It is a great way to introduce longer works. Kids who transfer in are at a big disadvantage, and we have a lot of transfers here.

[AddisonStSox]

"The move signaled the end of Ordonez's slim chances of remaining with the Sox because of the contentious relationship between Boras and Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf."

 

^

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That line is histarical, absolutely unbelievable.

 

Where has this guy been the past 4 months?

 

I hate to break it to you fella, but Magg$ not resigning with the Sox had absolutely NOTHING to do with Boras/Reinsdorf. Its all about credibility.

 

It had EVERYTHING to do with YOUR huge character issues, Magg$. :headshake

 

So long.

[Texsox]

With the history between Boras and the White Sox, it was a signal that Maggs wasn't interested in a White Sox contract. It is not secret that Reinsdorf and Boras don't see eye to eye. If Maggs really wanted to stay with the Sox, he could have picked anyone but Boras.

[AddisonStSox]

With the history between Boras and the White Sox, it was a signal that Maggs wasn't interested in a White Sox contract. It is not secret that Reinsdorf and Boras don't see eye to eye. If Maggs really wanted to stay with the Sox, he could have picked anyone but Boras.

 

The decision to not sign with the White Sox was made before the Boras hire.

 

Signing Boras was to assure he'd get the most on the market, knowing full well he wants nothing to do with the Sox and Kenny and co. want nothing to do with him.

 

Just MHO.

[Texsox]

The decision to not sign with the White Sox was made before the Boras hire.

 

Signing Boras was to assure he'd get the most on the market, knowing full well he wants nothing to do with the Sox and Kenny and co. want nothing to do with him.

 

Just MHO.

 

Exactly. Which is why I was wondering why you disagreed with

"The move signaled the end of Ordonez's slim chances of remaining with the Sox because of the contentious relationship between Boras and Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf."

[AddisonStSox]

Exactly. Which is why I was wondering why you disagreed with

 

Ah, ok gottcha.

 

We, mere Message Board posters, knew the Sox were done with Maggs WELL BEFORE the Boras hire.

 

If this reporter was really tapped into his story, he would have known ties were severed long before the Boras hire.

 

Maybe he's just implying it signaled the end to the casual fan, because it was over well before that.

[Texsox]

Ah, ok gottcha.

 

We, mere Message Board posters, knew the Sox were done with Maggs WELL BEFORE the Boras hire.

 

If this reporter was really tapped into his story, he would have known ties were severed long before the Boras hire.

 

Maybe he's just implying it signaled the end to the casual fan, because it was over well before that.

 

With the injury there was a slim chance, at least officially, hadn't both sides agreed to discuss the situation after the season ended? Anyway, hiring Boras was the final straw IMHO. Any hope was squashed on that day.

 

Which leaves Crede IIRC as the only Boras client on the roster.

[JUGGERNAUT]

This was a High School class, not University. At least in my kid's cases, the assignment counted towards their grades. Again, the summer reading I agreed with.It is difficult to try and finish a 600 page book during the school year. It is a great way to introduce longer works. Kids who transfer in are at a big disadvantage, and we have a lot of transfers here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Off-topic:

Calculus & really any math or science class can't just be read it must be worked. There really is no other way to learn them. I know teachers who disagree with me but I really believe that math & science take homes of this nature should be graded on pass/fail only. They would argue that all students taking such a class have equal access to internet sites & other form of outside tutor help so it's fair to assign a real grade. But I would argue that the assignment is over a break period & you should not assume that each student has equal time to share in doing the assignment.

 

On-topic:

I think better than playing Beane ball is playing Twin ball. The Twins have been a legitimate contender 4 straight years because of a dominant pen, good D, better than average rotation, & better than average offense.

 

The Sox should not spend 80M+ until they have a dominant pen. We have a better than average pen. I don't know how you grow a dominant pen but the Twins do. Look at the turnover in their pen over that time & then look at their success. How do you pull that off? There's no formula I can think of where the Sox could keep Maggs & develop or buy a dominant pen for under 90M+. That includes trading Lee.

That being the case, you have to spend less & risk more & put greater hope on potential. I think KW came to this same conclusion.

 

I believe KW's biggest blunder this off-season was not getting Hudson. There's no reason I can think of why he couldn't build a Lee for Hudson trade to satisfy Beane.

That trade fits w/in the Sox' budget. Even if it involves a 3rd team. That being said does an 05 team with Hudson, Dye, Maggs & AJP added given the Sox the edge in the division? No. Because the pen would still be below average.

 

Revisionist history is over. Let's put our faith in KW's faith that adding Vizc & Herm

will make our pen good & not just above average.

[Chisoxfn]

I'd say there's a better chance than none of that happening.

Remember, those numbers are skewed from the days when Comerica was an insane pitchers park. Since then they have moved in the fences and I'd say it really doesn't have an advantage either way.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I just want to say one more thing on the arbitration issue because this is really were the credibility factor of this debate strikes.

 

Everything I read as far as KW quotes always mentioned arbitration as being an open option contingent on the Sox medical staff coming to the conclusion that Maggs would be ready to play come April. I never read anything that ruled that option out. KW is on record as saying that neither Maggs or his agent ever discussed or provided any records to help the Sox medical staff come to that conclusion.

 

Now unless Maggs can provide something factual to dispute that he has no leg to stand on credibility wise to suggest that he did everything in his power to convince the Sox to offer arbitration. I'm not up to speed on the parameters of Type A arbitration which is what I think we're talking about here. That's where the team offers & if the player declines the team gets picks. Apparently the Sox had so little to go on they weren't even willing to risk the money in exchange for the picks. Who's fault is that? Maggs.

[Chisoxfn]

You're right.. it is. And look who started it? Kenny was nothing but nice to Maggs. Even at Soxfest pouring on the Magglio love. And this is the return on that..?

 

Class... well.. I'll agree with the last 3 letters.

I agree with Steff. There is no PR battle here. Kenny has constantly stayed out of the argument while Maggs continues to lash out against him. Maggs is a self serving piece of s***, end of story, imo.

 

The Tigers are retarded for giving him this type of money, especially when someone like Beltre signed for less who at this stage (with Maggs coming over major surgery and Beltre coming off an MVP type season) there is no reason why Maggs should get more money.

 

Not blaming Maggs for taking that contract, but I am blaming Maggs for this constant battle. He's not what I always thought he was over the past few years and the Sox have actually handled this quite well, imo.

[ptatc]

Has Dr. Weil really been dismissed? His website still claims he is the White Sox team podiatrist.

 

 

I think it was in November that I heard the Sox were terminating his services but it could have turned around.

[ptatc]

For the record:

Maggs accepted the advice of a US Doctor who was on the Sox payroll. He decided, based on all the treatments available, to try this. I'm not a Doctor, but I suspect if he had this choice at the beginning of his contract he might have choosen the conventional treatment and lost another season or so.  I'll bet at that point, the team would have been suggesting the new treatment and hopefully a faster recovery.

 

He did have the surgery in Germany but the rehab was done in the US with a physical therapist. Usually only the physicians get the credit but anyone who has had back surgery especially when it has progressed to the point where there is muscular atrophy the rehab is also very important. However your point is well taken. Many of the more famous physician are outside of the US partly due to the freedom they have to do procedures not approved in the US.

[Texsox]

He did have the surgery in Germany but the rehab was done in the US with a physical therapist. Usually only the physicians get the credit but anyone who has had back surgery especially when it has progressed to the point where there is muscular atrophy the rehab is also very important. However your point is well taken. Many of the more famous physician are outside of the US partly due to the freedom they have to do procedures not approved in the US.

 

Agreed, the after care is often as important as the surgery. My point was this Doctor was the only one to diagnose the condition accurately.

 

It was just mentioned that the Doctor that Maggs used is well known to soccer players. I assume that knee injuries are common in soccer players.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Remember, those numbers are skewed from the days when Comerica was an insane pitchers park.  Since then they have moved in the fences and I'd say it really doesn't have an advantage either way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Comerica:

Left-field fence, 346 feet

Left-field power alley, 402 feet

Center field, 422 feet

Right-field power alley, 379 feet

Right-field fence, 330 feet

 

I couldn't find anything else on changes but I don't see how this will help Maggs.

As a pull hitter the vast majority of Maggs HR's are on the LF side. That's where the biggest disadvantage is for a hitter in that park. That's also why LH bats are so important vs the Tigs.

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/d...0044&statType=1

 

The 12M figure is interesting as well. That's the guaranteed amount Maggs is playing for in 05. That might be why he mentioned arbitration. After 05 the contract is voidable for the Tigs if re-occuring knee problems should surface for Maggs.

[The Beast]

Question for you Beastly. I know you're a Maggs fan, but do you think he's worth a 7 year deal for about $105 million considering Comerica Park isn't one of his favorite parks to hit in?

Hell no. But at least he got a job. I didn't want to see Maggs in ruin like a few bastards on here did. Its not easy coming back from that injury and playing like you did before.

[The Beast]

It's easy to turn on someone when they go ahead and turn on you. It's like your dog that you raised biting your hand while feeding him, running to your neighbors, and viciously barking at you every time you walk past his fence. Maggs- :finger

I'm not going to turn on him though, that guy did great things for us when he was in Chicago.

[SoxFan1]

Dye, Hermanson, Podsednik, Vizcaino, Hernandez, Peirzynski, Iguchi > Percival, Ordonez

[Texsox]

Dye, Hermanson, Podsednik, Vizcaino, Hernandez, Peirzynski, Iguchi > Percival, Ordonez

The realities of small market spending in baseball. Instead of having those guys and Maggs, we have to settle for one or the other. A problem teams like the Yankess and Red Sox wouldn't worry about.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Dye, Hermanson, Podsednik, Vizcaino, Hernandez, Peirzynski, Iguchi > Lee, Percival, Ordonez

 

Don't forget El Cabello.