Parting shots from Maggs

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(YASNY @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 02:20 AM)

If the Sox won the World Series and there was a ticker tape parade thrown for them, you'd blame KW for the litter.  Your blatant hatred for KW is moronic.  :headshake

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As long as someone says something bad about KW, it's the truth. :headshake

[southsider2k5]

If the Sox won the World Series and there was a ticker tape parade thrown for them, you'd blame KW for the litter.  Your blatant hatred for KW is moronic.  :headshake

 

 

LMAO... Quote of the month material right there YAS.

[JUGGERNAUT]

KW dropped the ball by not offering Maggs arbitration?  I don't think so.  In fact, he had no choice in the matter.  They could not get information regarding Magg's knee.  Was he supposed to gamble $12million plus on someone's word?

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The Sox would not have to risk 12M. On a contract that small they could easily take out insurance against it. The insurance probably drives the cost up to 14-15M but if Maggs can't play than the Sox only lose about 1/3rd of that. I'm sure Det has done just that for the first yr.

 

Maggs was considered by many to be the best MLB player in Chicago. It's there in print. Do you risk 4-5M on his word that he'll be ready to play? I think so. I think most teams would.

 

IMHO, here's what KW should have done:

In Dec announce to the press they are prepared to offer Maggs arbitration contingent upon being able to insure against the risk he can not play. That takes all of the personal stuff out of the equation. That puts the ball squarely in Maggs hands as the Sox have clearly expressed a desire & willingness to take some risk to have him back. Now if Maggs or Boras ignore that request (which means essentially an evaluation by an insurance company) then clearly he is not interesting in playing for the Sox under an arbitration. Nothing Couch writes in Feb would change that.

 

Sometimes you can use the media to your advantage.

 

I don't hate KW. I actually like most of the moves he made this off-season. But I can't let my Sox bias get in the way of evaluating him vs other GM's. Why isn't Tim Hudson a member of the White Sox right now? When you look at what he was traded for I can not excuse KW for not getting this done. Hendry should be equally ashamed. Hudson has proven to be far more durable & effective than any pitcher the Cub currently has (with respect to age). All we ever hear about is how great the farm system is for both these clubs & yet it seems the Braves are always the one to get the star marquee players. So either Chicago's farm systems aren't so great or the GM's aren't so great. You pick.

 

Other mid revenue teams like CLE offer arbitration to their stars they can't hope to sign long term. Sometimes the star accepts. They are willing to boost the payroll to do that. Why do that do it? For the fans.

[southsider2k5]

The Sox would not have to risk 12M.  On a contract that small they could easily take out insurance against it.  The insurance probably drives the cost up to 14-15M but if Maggs can't play than the Sox only lose about 1/3rd of that. I'm sure Det has done just that for the first yr.

 

Insurance against a preexsisting condition?

[Soxy]

You mean to tell me that he didn't like being treated like an endanger servant?  What you mean the Great KW.. actually did this? NOOOOO Never  .. Mags, came out with the truth again, you people don't like it.. its that simple.  The people that are ripping  on mags reminds of some other fans on the other side of town that turned on their "superstar". Lets not become like them, time to blame the real problem in this mess.. KW.

I'm confused. Do you mean indentured servant? Or was Maggs somehow endangered by playing for the Sox--well, maybe. Maybe, KW orchestrated that whole collision with Willie to avoid paying him a lot of money for the next season. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Steff]

The Sox would not have to risk 12M.  On a contract that small they could easily take out insurance against it.  The insurance probably drives the cost up to 14-15M but if Maggs can't play than the Sox only lose about 1/3rd of that. I'm sure Det has done just that for the first yr. 

 

 

 

No way insurance would have "only" driven up the cost a few million. Albert's insured contract with Baltimore drove up the cost $4 million PER year and he was still able to function at the time of his exam. I have doubts that insurance would touch Maggs at this point. And if they did.. it would cost Detroit a lot of cash. I would guess nearly the value of the contract itself.

[JUGGERNAUT]

No way insurance would have "only" driven up the cost a few million. Albert's insured contract with Baltimore drove up the cost $4 million PER year and he was still able to function at the time of his exam. I have doubts that insurance would touch Maggs at this point. And if they did.. it would cost Detroit a lot of cash. I would guess nearly the value of the contract itself.

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We are talking a 12M contract with respect to Sox. I factored in 2-3M which is between 20-25%. Maggs injury falls in a gray area category. He's been operated on & given a clean bill of health with respect to the tears. As for the bone edema that's a condition that is determined by a medical evaluation. Either it still exists or it doesn't. If it doesn't that can't be used to rule out insurance.

 

As for Det there is no reason for them to insure any portion of the contract beyond the 1st yr. The contract is voidable at any time after the first year if Maggs can't play.

So Det is in the same boat as far as insuring the first 12M goes.

[Steff]

We are talking a 12M contract with respect to Sox.  I factored in 2-3M which is between 20-25%.   Maggs injury falls in a gray area category.  He's been operated on & given a clean bill of health with respect to the tears.  As for the bone edema that's a condition that is determined by a medical evaluation.  Either it still exists or it doesn't.  If it doesn't that can't be used to rule out insurance. 

 

As for Det there is no reason for them to insure any portion of the contract beyond the 1st yr.  The contract is voidable at any time after the first year if Maggs can't play. 

So Det is in the same boat as far as insuring the first 12M goes.

 

 

Albert signed for less than that with Baltimore and he was still able to perform and the cost to insure it was $4 million PER year, and that was SEVEN years ago. The Sox would have had to tie up more than $16 million for ONE year...? That's just plain stupid.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Albert signed for less than that with Baltimore and he was still able to perform and the cost to insure it was $4 million PER year, and that was SEVEN years ago. The Sox would have had to tie up more than $16 million for ONE year...? That's just plain stupid.

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Two entirely different players with two entirely different conditions. It would not have cost the Sox 4M to insure a 12M contract for Maggs. It would have cost 2-3M. Albert had a history of re-occuring problems at the time Bal helped the Sox got out of Albert's contract. That history included dl time. Maggs does not have a history of re-occuring problems. His injuries would be classified as accident/collision related. If his medical evalution indicated the bone edema condition was gone he would be reasonably insurable. Maggs was never considered an injury prone player.

 

Of course we're only debating the difference of 1M.

You say it's stupid to lock up 15M for the best player in Chicago (that's what was written) & I say PR wise it's not. The Sox are a mid-rev team. They should be able

to keep their stars through arbitration at least.

 

Play it out.

Maggs can't play. Between the cost of insurance & what they can be expected to pay

the Sox are on the hook for 6M. No more than Det.

 

Maggs can play. The Sox have a 300/30/100 star in RF that can be traded for more value than the two picks you would get in arbitration compensation. If the Sox choose not to trade him in 05 they can still offer him arbit in 06 as a Type A player &

get two picks for him.

[Steff]

Two entirely different players with two entirely different conditions.  It would not have cost the Sox 4M to insure a 12M contract for Maggs.  It would have cost 2-3M.  Albert had a history of re-occuring problems at the time Bal helped the Sox got out of Albert's contract.  That history included dl time.  Maggs does not have a history of re-occuring problems.  His injuries would be classified as accident/collision related.  If his medical evalution indicated the bone edema condition was gone he would be reasonably insurable. Maggs was never considered an injury prone player.

 

 

As of this point.. Maggs is not 100% at the time Albert signed with Baltimore he was. And.. had spent less time onthe DL than Maggs has (including last year). Re-occuring...? Isn't Maggs knee problem re-occuring...?

 

And according to an acquaintance who does legal work in the sports world it would have cost 50% of the contract to insure Maggs and that is based on risk factors. At this time he has not been able to perform any "baseball actions" That puts him in the highest risk catagory. The more he can do at the time the contract is signed the lower the % number. So it would have cost (did cost is what she thinks) nearly 18 million to signed him to 1 year guaranteed $$.

 

By the way.. edema doesn't go away.

[Texsox]

By the way.. edema doesn't go away.

 

Does Maggs have a specialized form of edema? I thought this was temporary and could be cured?

 

From the Intelihealth site

Expected Duration

 

Edema can be temporary or permanent, and it can come and go depending on the cause.

 

Prognosis

 

The prognosis for edema of the legs depends on the cause. For most people with edema, the prognosis is excellent.

 

Of course most people are not professional athletes.

[Steff]

Does Maggs have a specialized form of edema? I thought this was temporary and could be cured?

 

From the Intelihealth site

Of course most people are not professional athletes.

 

 

I haven't seen any doctors reports.. but from all that I've heard it's caused serious damage to the knee.

 

From what I have read about it.. taking it easy is one "treatment".. obviously Maggs doesn't have that luxury if he wants to stay employed.

[JUGGERNAUT]

50% of the contract to insure Maggs and that is based on risk factors. At this time he has not been able to perform any "baseball actions".

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Wrt to Belle, here are the details:

Albert Belie was put on the DL after two team doctors found him "totally disabled and unable to perform as a major league baseball player" due to a severe case of degenerative arthritis of the right hip, which caused him to miss all of the Orioles' spring training games.

 

Baltimore owes Belle $13 million in each of the final three seasons of his $65 million, five-year contract. The insurance company will reimburse 70 percent of the $39 million to the team.

 

Here's a good article that discusses the costs & issues related to sports player insurance. http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/218997-7491-191.html

 

Now with respect to Maggs here is a good article to explain how disability insurance works in the majors:

http://www.legalball.com/MLB-news.html

Beginning in the 2002 off-season, disability policies were limited to 2 to 3 year increments, as opposed to the entire length of the contract.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories.../18/story8.html

An NFL player's disability insurance can cost $2,500 to $3,000 per $100,000 of salary insured each season, Lattinville said. Carriers typically cover 75 percent of a player's salary.

 

Now certainly you can agree that an NFL player is a higher risk to insure than a MLB one? Even if you make the claim the cost has grown 500% since then that would still be 15K for every 100K for an NFL player. That's 150K for every 1M, & 1.5M for every 10M.

 

That's why I say for a 1 yr deal on Maggs at 12M the Sox are probably looking at about a 2M insurance cost worst case. You have to keep in mind that the arbitration award is not given out until Feb 21st. Maggs has already been cleared for baseball activity. That would make him a far less risk to insure. The Sox do not have to purchase liability insurance until that date.

 

In the event Maggs couldn't play the policy would cover 9M & the Sox would be on the hook for 4M plus the cost of the insurance. A total of 6M.

 

 

I just want to add one more thing. A much higher risk, Gonzo had a clever agent in Moorad who actually purchased personal disability insurance for his client prior to FA negotiations. The policy was structured such that it elapsed on Feb 15th of that year but could be continued by a team signing Gonzo. With that policy in place Gonzo signed a 12M/2 yr deal & the cost of insurance was around 2M.

[Steff]

What you can't seem to get through that hard head of yours.. is that Belle's contract was insured SEVEN years ago. As a result of them getting hosed on that deal is has become increasingly harder and more expensive to insure contracts. And what else you're missing is the COST to the Orioles of the policy. It cost $17 million a year for Albert to play for the Orioles.. and at the time HE COULD STILL PLAY 100%. Maggs hasn't proven that he can jump rope... yet you think he's easily insurable.. LMAO..

[southsider2k5]

What you can't seem to get through that hard head of yours.. is that Belle's contract was insured SEVEN years ago. As a result of them getting hosed on that deal is has become increasingly harder and more expensive to insure contracts. And what else you're missing is the COST to the Orioles of the policy. It cost $17 million a year to insure Albert.. and at the time HE COULD STILL PLAY 100%. Maggs hasn't proven that he can jump rope... yet you think he's easily insurable.. LMAO..

 

Did the Sox call Geico? they could save 15% or more on insurance...

[Steff]

Did the Sox call Geico?  they could save 15% or more on insurance...

 

 

[Texsox]

Did the Sox call Geico?  they could save 15% or more on insurance...

That's about all they could afford . . .

[Texsox]

I haven't seen any doctors reports.. but from all that I've heard it's caused serious damage to the knee.

 

From what I have read about it.. taking it easy is one "treatment".. obviously Maggs doesn't have that luxury if he wants to stay employed.

 

From the articles there was three courses of treatment

 

Do nothing and the healing would be 18 months to never.

Drill holes to relieve the pressure / drain with at least 9-12 months of rest.

The treatment he took in Vienna which promised 4-6 months.

 

Which is one of the reasons the Sox would have been in a no-win situation advising Maggs of which treatment to take. Conventional treatment where he would certainly miss all of Spring training and the start of the season, without a contract. Or a "not approved in the US" surgery in Vienna. What would the Sox have said? How would having input have helped the Sox?

[JUGGERNAUT]

What you can't seem to get through that hard head of yours.. is that Belle's contract was insured SEVEN years ago. As a result of them getting hosed on that deal is has become increasingly harder and more expensive to insure contracts. And what else you're missing is the COST to the Orioles of the policy. It cost $17 million a year for Albert to play for the Orioles.. and at the time HE COULD STILL PLAY 100%. Maggs hasn't proven that he can jump rope... yet you think he's easily insurable.. LMAO..

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Maggs passed his physical & was cleared for major league baseball activity.

Insurance companies don't go around asking people to jump rope. They deal with medical opinions

 

I suggest you read this again:

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories.../18/story8.html

An NFL player's disability insurance can cost $2,500 to $3,000 per $100,000 of salary insured each season, Lattinville said. Carriers typically cover 75 percent of a player's salary.

 

Read the article. Even if premiums were to go up 500% it's still no where near the amounts your talking about. Unless of course you think insuring Maggs is a higher risk than insuring an NFL player

[Texsox]

Maggs passed his physical & was cleared for major league baseball activity. 

Insurance companies don't go around asking people to jump rope.  They deal with medical opinions 

 

I suggest you read this again:

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories.../18/story8.html

An NFL player's disability insurance can cost $2,500 to $3,000 per $100,000 of salary insured each season, Lattinville said. Carriers typically cover 75 percent of a player's salary.

 

Read the article.  Even if premiums were to go up 500% it's still no where near the amounts your talking about.  Unless of course you think insuring Maggs is a higher risk than insuring an NFL player

 

He may be higher risk. Comparing a healthy NFL player to someone with a known injury who hasn't demonstrated he can play.

[Steff]

Maggs passed his physical & was cleared for major league baseball activity. 

Insurance companies don't go around asking people to jump rope.  They deal with medical opinions 

 

 

I know exactly what they ask for. They give him a series of tests and grade on the ability to perform those tasks. "Baseball activity" could mean standing stationary tossing a ball. When Albert took his tests for Baltimore he had to take 13 different tests, one included swimming, and based on his performance he was given a grade and the risk factor was assigned from that grade. He was deemed 100% at the time and still there was an additional premium. I don't care about football players or whatever else. I'm talking about a baseball qualifying physical. Maggs "rep" said he would be 80% at spring training.. no way did it, or would it, cost less to insure someone at 80% than someone at 100% and definitely not 7 years later.

[Steff]

He may be higher risk. Comparing a healthy NFL player to someone with a known injury who hasn't demonstrated he can play.

 

 

 

Logical to most..

[JUGGERNAUT]

You are both crazy. I have now read two different links that place the cost of disability insurance for college & pro football athletes at 3.5K - 14K for every 1M. I now think that's what the 2000 link meant. I have seen the average quoted for football athletes as being 10K per 1M.

 

Maggs has no history of chronic or persistent back or hip problems (unlike Belle & Gonzo did at the time of their signings). His risk is no greater than that of any other MLB player coming off of knee surgery. Even if you placed that cost at 100K per 1M (10 times the avg for an NFL player) it's still falls under 2M for a 12M contract.

 

You're just plain out of your mind if you believe it costs 6M to provide disability insurance on a 12M contract for a period of 1yr.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Sports athletes can even purchase disability insurance on projected future earnings!

 

2003: McGhee took out a 2.5M DL insur policy with Loyd's of London before the Fiesta Bowl game. It cost him far less than 10K per 1M avg rate because it was only insuring him for about 4mo. From the Fiesta bowl to the NFL draft.

[Steff]

Jugger.. I know what I was told and it was from a baseball source. Maybe you should compare apples to apples.

 

 

Also.. I don't know where you're getting your information, but Belle had no issues with his hip until the 97 season when the condition was found in a x-ray. And even with the finding he was deemed 100% capable.

 

Maggs.. by his own admission is not 100%.