Maggs real health status from him and his agent

[WilliamTell]

I personally would rather have Dye on the team than Ordonez anyways. I just don't know how Ordonez's attitude would be even if he was on the team this year.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I think the question needing to be asked is not whether Maggs is worth 15M but whether he's worth that much to the Detroit Tigers. Take a look at how this team compares to the ALC teams. Razor thin margins with the exception of their 2r/gm cushion vs CLE. Maggs & Percival can make a difference between many of those games being wins & losses.

 

A healthy Maggs & Percival make Det a legitimate contender in 05.

[SoxFan562004]

I would love to see some of the exact language regarding the DL clauses. Because I'm sure if he's hitting .250 and obviously struggling the Tigers will want to put him on the DL. However, there's no way Maggs and Boras will be OK with that. I see this being a future point of contention if Maggs is a lesser player than he once was.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I would love to see some of the exact language regarding the DL clauses.  Because I'm sure if he's hitting .250 and obviously struggling the Tigers will want to put him on the DL.  However, there's no way Maggs and Boras will be OK with that.  I see this being a future point of contention if Maggs is a lesser player than he once was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not arbitrary like that. It would have to be DL time assoc with a knee problem.

A team doctor would have to state that his knee was less than 100% healthy. If he just sucks or he goes down for a wrist injury or something like that it doesn't count towards the clause.

[witesoxfan]

ANd if Mags puts up numbers like he has in the past.. who is the dumb one?

 

Jermaine Dye career .272/.334/.463(.797) - 2 year, $10.15 mill deal

Magglio Ordonez career .307/.364/.525(.889) - 5 year, $75 mill deal

 

According to the math, one is getting just over $5 mill over 2 years, and the other is getting $15 mill over 5 years.

 

Now, I'm not going to be the first and only to tell you that an OPS of .889 is better than an OPS of .797. But is it $10 mill per with 3 more years included better?

 

Methinks no.

 

On top of that, the $5 mill player is better defensively then the $15 mill player is too, along with the fact that the $5 mill is a safer health bet then the $15 mill.

 

We got lucky he turned down our offer, regardless of health. Jermaine Dye is better for the money.

 

Tigers = the dumb

[JUGGERNAUT]

Jermaine Dye career .272/.334/.463(.797) - 2 year, $10.15 mill deal

Magglio Ordonez career .307/.364/.525(.889) - 5 year, $75 mill deal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm looking at this completely different. Lee was gone. That was a given.

I do not think that signing Maggs to a 12M arbit award means we don't sign Dye.

I still think we sign Dye. The difference is with both Maggs & Dye, Lee is pkg'd in a trade for someone like Hudson arm rather than Pods, Vizc, & a PTBNL.

 

The Tigers paid 6M for a trial period of Maggs. If he's on the DL more than 25 times due to his knee the contract is void as is the signing bonus. How can you call that dumb?

[qwerty]

I'm looking at this completely different.  Lee was gone.  That was a given.

I do not think that signing Maggs to a 12M arbit award means we don't sign Dye.

I still think we sign Dye. The difference is with both Maggs & Dye, Lee is pkg'd in a trade for someone like Hudson arm rather than Pods, Vizc, & a PTBNL. 

 

The Tigers paid 6M for a trial period of Maggs.  If he's on the DL more than 25 times due to his knee the contract is void as is the signing bonus.  How can you call that dumb?

 

Um, did you not see the contract they signed him to? Supposedly they have only seen him run with no workout. But maybe he meant, tiger= genius.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Um, did you not see the contract they signed him to? Supposedly they have only seen him run with no workout. But maybe he meant, tiger= genius.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We are talking about Illich! Have you seen how much $ he's spent on his Redwings in recent years? He's the Steinbrenner of the NHL & eventually broke the league. What does a healthy Maggs mean to the Tigs? Is it worth gambling 6M? For a team with 6M to burn the answer is an easy yes.

[Steff]

We are talking about Illich!  Have you seen how much $ he's spent on his Redwings in recent years?  He's the Steinbrenner of the NHL & eventually broke the league.  What does a healthy Maggs mean to the Tigs?  Is it worth gambling 6M?  For a team with 6M to burn the answer is an easy yes.

 

 

That wasn't the question.

[qwerty]

We are talking about Illich!  Have you seen how much $ he's spent on his Redwings in recent years?  He's the Steinbrenner of the NHL & eventually broke the league.  What does a healthy Maggs mean to the Tigs?  Is it worth gambling 6M?  For a team with 6M to burn the answer is an easy yes.

 

Is a healthy ordonez worth 15 million for a team that has money to burn? Nope.

[witesoxfan]

I'm looking at this completely different.  Lee was gone.  That was a given.

I do not think that signing Maggs to a 12M arbit award means we don't sign Dye.

I still think we sign Dye. The difference is with both Maggs & Dye, Lee is pkg'd in a trade for someone like Hudson arm rather than Pods, Vizc, & a PTBNL. 

 

The Tigers paid 6M for a trial period of Maggs.  If he's on the DL more than 25 times due to his knee the contract is void as is the signing bonus.  How can you call that dumb?

 

...?

 

What does that first part have anything I said? I'm saying Dye is better for the money, that's it. I'm not talking about us having both.

 

You also have to consider that if we have both Maggs and Dye, at rougly $16 mill combined($12 for Maggs, $4 for Dye), that probably means we do not sign Iguchi, we do not sign AJ, we do not sign Duque, we do not sign Hermanson. Iguchi makes $2.3 mill, AJ $2.25 mill, Duque about $3 mill, Hermanson $2 mill...add those up, and you are at rougly $9.55 mill or so, plus Dye, you are at $13.55 mill.

 

Iguchi, AJ, Duque, Hermanson, Dye > Maggs and Dye

 

 

The Tigers are dumb for offering this contract because Maggs can have break his arm or tear his right ACL, or any other injury, other then one that effects his left knee, and he is GUARANTEED $75 mill. If he can limp around on his left knee while staying off the DL for 25 days, and he is GUARANTEED $75 mill.

 

The most Maggs should have been signed to was 2 years. It's a horrible contract.

 

Not only that, but there is no guarantee that he is back at hitting .310 .370 .550 after this injury, especially when you consider he is going from one of the best hitters parks in the AL and is going to one of the best pitchers park in the majors.

 

If they get lucky, Maggs reinjures his left knee and is out for 25 days or more. I am hoping he doesn't injure it and they are under that burden of a contract again.

 

Another Bobby Higginson contract couldn't hurt them, now could it?

[southsider17]

The 25 gm clause applies to each year of the contract.

 

Where did you get that?

[ISF]

I will consider thew Tigers dumb until somebody can point out another team that was offering more than 2 years. Or anywhere near 15 mil.

 

Tigers could have offered 3 years at that money and nobody was going to outbid them.

 

It's Tom Hicks/A-Rod all over again. Difference being, A-Rod wasn't coming off a severe knee injury.

 

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[qwerty]

Where did you get that?

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

I have never ever seen that.

[JUGGERNAUT]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let me try this again.

You sign Maggs + Dye for 16M.

You trade Lee + stuff + cash for Hudson.

So it's really a question of whether Maggs, Dye, Hudson > Dye, Iguchi, Herm, Pods, Viz, & AJP Since I am not all convinced that Viz & Herm will greatly improve the Pen I'll take the 3 over the 6.

 

That's from the Sox perspective. From the Det perspective. The contract is voidable any year after the first it says that in the Detroit Free Press. But again that's only if the DL time in encurred due to a problem with that knee. So it's a pre-existing condition void clause.

 

I'm sure the Tigs are taking out general disability insurance on the contract. That covers the first 3 yrs. If Maggs has not matter a difference in W/L for the Tigs in that time do you really think he'll remain a Tig? As long as he puts up 30/300/100 like numbers each yr the Tigs will be able to trade him & the contract.

 

Illich was a fool for bidding against himself. I think we all agree with that. But in the end the signing is likely to help Det more than hurt them. He'll remain a Tig for as long as Illich wants to watch him play.

[Rowand44]

You trade Lee + stuff

 

I see you've thought this through :rolly

[Steff]

You trade Lee + stuff + cash for Hudson. 

 

 

 

Ahhhh.. now it all makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

[Steff]

I see you've thought this through :rolly

 

 

 

LOL Rowand.. GMTA!!

[Rowand44]

LOL Rowand.. GMTA!! 

[JUGGERNAUT]

What a bunch of tools. It means you center the trade around Lee for Hudson & give Beane pretty much whatever else he wants. It's not difficult. In hindsight that price was met already by Atlanta. So you know pretty much what it would have cost with Lee as the centerpiece.

 

Boras was quoted as saying Detroit's medical staff is comfortable that Maggs will be ready to go by the start of ST. That's better than our situation with Thomas.

[JUGGERNAUT]

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 12:57 PM)

The 25 gm clause applies to each year of the contract.

 

The contract was structured similar to that of I-Rod. In fact there's the possibility the press is not reporting it correctly.

 

In I-Rod's contract after 2 yrs if for whatever reason he is on the DL for 5 wks or more in any one season the remainder of the contract is void.

 

In Maggs case that's after 1 yr & 25 days. The only question is whether it's for whatever reason or specific to the knee. The papers seem to suggest it's specific to the knee but that doesn't make sense with respect to I-Rod's contract so I'm thinking they are structured similarly.

[witesoxfan]

Let me try this again.

You sign Maggs + Dye for 16M. 

You trade Lee + stuff + cash for Hudson. 

So it's really a question of whether Maggs, Dye, Hudson > Dye, Iguchi, Herm, Pods, Viz, & AJP Since I am not all convinced that Viz & Herm will greatly improve the Pen I'll take the 3 over the 6.

 

That's from the Sox perspective.  From the Det perspective.  The contract is voidable any year after the first it says that in the Detroit Free Press.  But again that's only if the DL time in encurred due to a problem with that knee. So it's a pre-existing condition void clause.

 

I'm sure the Tigs are taking out general disability insurance on the contract.  That covers the first 3 yrs.  If Maggs has not matter a difference in W/L for the Tigs in that time do you really think he'll remain a Tig?  As long as he puts up 30/300/100 like numbers each yr the Tigs will be able to trade him & the contract. 

 

Illich was a fool for bidding against himself.  I think we all agree with that.  But in the end the signing is likely to help Det more than hurt them.  He'll remain a Tig for as long as Illich wants to watch him play.

 

That does not work out financially. With Davis, Konerko, Harris, Uribe, Crede, Maggs, Rowand, Dye, Thomas, Buehrle, Garcia, Hudson, Contreras, and Garland just counted right now, I have the payroll at $69.5 mill. That does NOT include Everett at $4 mill, Shingo at $2.5 mill, Marte at $2 mill, Gload at roughly $1 mill, the cash involved in the Hudson deal, nor anyone else. You make those additions, and the Sox are looking at $80+ mill, well beyond the threshole set prior to the offseason. If you do that, you then have to worry about trading Konerko elsewhere too, and you are losing production there offensively.

 

And Lee and stuff...this stuff would likely include either BMac or Marte, and likely another player too. Consider that too before making the trade.

 

The point is moot anyways...Maggs is a Tiger, and he would have had to produce at atleast 2003 level to be anything close to worth $12 mill. It's really not worth getting into, because the team is better constructed this way then it would have been otherwise.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I agree with you. After seeing how piss poor our rotation & pen were in 2004 that's were the $ needed to go.

 

We were 3rd in R in 04, but were 29th in SVO. Our SV - SVO ratio was actually the best in the ALC & amongst the leaders in the AL (74%). When you breakdown our SVO weakness it's as follows: 65+ L from the rotation means the pen was handed 97 WIN & HOLD opps. We blew over 1/2 those opps & we left with a measly 47 SVO.

 

I'm expecting no more than 50L from the rotation. That means the pen will get 112 WIN & HOLD opps. That's a 15 game difference over 04. If we just convert 1/2 of those were a 90 win team. The additions of Hernandez, Vizc, & Herm should get us there.

[ptatc]

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 12:57 PM)

The 25 gm clause applies to each year of the contract.

 

The contract was structured similar to that of I-Rod.  In fact there's the possibility the press is not reporting it correctly. 

 

In I-Rod's contract after 2 yrs if for whatever reason he is on the DL for 5 wks or more in any one season the remainder of the contract is void.

 

In Maggs case that's after 1 yr & 25 days.  The only question is whether it's for whatever reason or specific to the knee.  The papers seem to suggest it's specific to the knee but that doesn't make sense with respect to I-Rod's contract so I'm thinking they are structured similarly.

 

As I recall the I Rod contract did stipulate that if he was on the DL due to his back prolems. I think the Maggs contract specified the left knee. Let's be cynical...what if his knee is hurting and he doesn't want to blow the contract. He just twists his ankle and the team puts him on the DL due to it and not the knee.

 

I've seen patients who break a bone in thier ankle on an ATV on Sat. wrap it up, sneak into work on Mon and claim workers comp so they lose money. I'm not saying he would but if I was the Tigers I would watch everything closely. 75-105 million is alot of money.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 04:12 PM)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

I have never ever seen that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it's only for 2005 and 2006.