Gene Honda Civic Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 My choice is what I choose to do, and if I'm causin' no harm it shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you choose to be, and if you're causing no harm, you're alright with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 lol, If Jah didn't love I (love I), If I didn't love I (love I), If Jah didn't love I (love I), If I didn't love I, Would I be around today? Would I be around to say: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 10:03 PM) My choice is what I choose to do, and if I'm causin' no harm it shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you choose to be, and if you're causing no harm, you're alright with me. Word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(winodj @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 11:22 AM) Loving who you choose to love = evil. Ok, then. no, ignoring doctrine and fundemental teachings of Jesus, Paul, and other early church leaders= evil. ok, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 02:03 PM) My choice is what I choose to do, and if I'm causin' no harm it shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you choose to be, and if you're causing no harm, you're alright with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:02 PM) no, ignoring doctrine and fundemental teachings of Jesus, Paul, and other early church leaders= evil. ok, then. JOHN and Paul = Jesus and Paul (Pablo?) = not so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Part of my belief in God is based on this question, would I rather know God and find out he doesn't exist when I die, or would I rather not know God and find out he did exist all along when I die?. If you 'know' God, you shouldn't have to consider the possibility that he doesn't exist. It sounds like the wording of your post should be "would I rather hedge my bets and belief in God...". I have no consequence with the first part of the question except with possibly a more bland life. The second part of the question wouldn't be pretty as infantile as it may be... The partially wasted life is a known result of the first option. The 'hell' result is not a known result. There's no reason to believe it exists. Pascal's wager also gives you no reason to pick one god over another. Believe in Jesus and Odin might not let you into Valhalla, belief in Allah and Jesus won't let you into heaven, worship Odin and Allah won't hook you up with some virgins. no, ignoring doctrine and fundemental teachings of Jesus, Paul, and other early church leaders= evil. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 01:12 PM) WDJ, I know you accept some boundaries in all this. Age for one. I will assume mental and physical condition. Would you agree it is wrong to fall in love (and let's assume sex is involved) with a 15 year old when you are 30? Would you agree if someone does not have the mental capacity to agree, that sex with that person is immoral also? Once we have barriers, I can understand, but not agree, with people who feel that gender barriers are natural as well. I've read scripture regarding the issue, read various studies on the "meaning" in Hebrew, Greek, etc. and feel that since it is unclear, and since so many homosexuals I know have fought hard to live a straight life, that it isn't up to me to judge, but to accept. Maybe it's the cowards way out. I respect PAs character to stand up and proclaim his belief without apologizing and I hope he respects my beliefs as well. Further, I think to be polite we are using "love" to mean both the emotion and a sexual act. I don't believe anyone would disagree with loving anyone, it's the physical act that gets some people's tightly whities in a bundle. I'm failing to come up with the right words for a response to this. Honestly, I tend to express more fundamental beliefs at times when I'm alot more accepting in reality because I just don't think The Bible is supposed to have alot of grey areas. To think we could pull one over on God is a joke. I do accept that life DOES have grey areas. It's also hard to discuss this because those without the spirit just won't get it. You can't understand biblical truth without being a Christian. I'm not saying you can get love and honesty and such values, I just think that those who don't seek with sincerity and humility are going to have things revealed to them by God. He intentionally veils himself to keep us guessing. call me naive, ignorant, whatever... it all continues to prove my thesis anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(winodj @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 01:59 PM) The truth simply is that equal people deserve equal rights under the auspices of responsible government. I do not believe this necessarily supports your argument. It could also be said that a responsible government establishes laws that responsible citizens follow until the laws are changed, if ever. By extension, equal rights do not extend to someone who is violating a law, for example. Also we have different laws for different people, and we accept those without hesitation. Cannot drink until 18 or 21. Cannot drive a car until you are 16. Cannot become President unless you are native born American. You can walk topless down Main street, but ChiSoxyGirl and Steff cannot. Men and women with different rights. Edited February 24, 2005 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 01:20 PM) Society is nose-diving? Get YOUR nose out of mass-media reporting and try some independent thought. The society we live in is less racist than it was 100 years ago for example. It is also a better time to live in if you're a woman. Is it better overall? No. Is it worse overall? Hardly. Society has not gotten wholly better or worse, just different. Old problems or issues get resolved, and new ones pop up. Some issues stay constant. But to say that it is "nose diving" is more than a bit on the over-exaggeration side of things. Unless you have some basis for making this statement. Do you? Cause I'd love to hear it. First of all, don't pretend to know me or catagorize me as any bit of a stereotype. It's grossly unappealing and not helpful for dialogue. I LOVE the fact that when someone's opinion isn't the popular "cool" opinion, it's somehow not independent thought. That's the biggest JOKE of leftist thought. You can't fathom how anyone would choose to believe things that I believe without them having somehow been brainwashed. Someone else needs to stop listening to Air America. I don't really know how much less racist our society really is. we've only had about 40 years of true "freedom" for black individuals, and that's questionable. As for women, being a CEO or owning your own business is now a reality, but destroying life with ease and the "sex sells" approach to our media seems to take a massive dump on women's rights and equality. I can definitely say that our society is worse off. In the name of "freedom" and "the self," we have devalued the family and relationships. I won't pretend I know what it was like in the earlier part of the 20th Century, but as a student of history I can look at causality. I'll be the first to say that it has to do alot with the failures of the church of the 20th Century....so please don't let me give you the opinion that "Christians" are blameless. In the end, I think it's about perception. You probably don't believe things like underaged drinking or premarital sex are bad. So, ultimately, we'll never agree on anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 02:59 PM) That's what I love about religion...the moralists always trying to tell people how to live their lives. uh, I'm not telling you how to do anything. I love the prejudices and assumptions made by people who don't know anything about the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Without absolute Good, how can you even begin to place value on things or actions? You can't be an atheist and claim any legitimate value system, because the things you place your beliefs in are arbitrary and completely based on the whims of the population...there's no absolute truth. By definition, there must exist a higher power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 05:59 PM) Without absolute Good, how can you even begin to place value on things or actions? You can't be an atheist and claim any legitimate value system, because the things you place your beliefs in are arbitrary and completely based on the whims of the population...there's no absolute truth. By definition, there must exist a higher power. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> and if there isn't then what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 08:59 PM) That's what I love about religion...the moralists always trying to tell people how to live their lives. PA said what I was thinking, by expressing my views on the matter, was I telling you what to do (rhetorical question, I know you weren't necessarily referring to me in particular but it raises a point I'd like to try and make). I can't live life for anyone but me. I can offer my opinions, suggest things to try and help, but at the end of the day (where's the overly used cliche thread, hehe) you make your choices and you have to live with the consequences. And if I'm true to what my beliefs are, I'll still support you no matter what you do. A better person says I disagree with you in a non-harmful way, but I support you anyway. Those are the type of people I want to have my back, not someone who just goes with the wind as to what is morally acceptable at the time and let me step all over my crank and get it wrong because society says it's ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 24, 2005 -> 12:10 AM) and if there isn't then what? If that's true, then why are we here? Or answer #2, we're all screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Actually Crimson, there are several definitions of know. Here is one. To discern the character or nature of: That is my definition of know in the sentence I used. If a definition of know is to actually talk to and engage with the person/deity, then how can anyone possibly question his word or his existence. Therefore, there wouldn't be any need of a question of if he exists or if we should follow his word. Like I said, its not one of my main reasons for belief, just a small nugget of knowledge that confirms my belief. I can know God in that definition of know above and still end up that it was just voices in my head and alot of smoke and mirrors. Do I believe that? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(kapkomet @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:15 PM) PA said what I was thinking, by expressing my views on the matter, was I telling you what to do (rhetorical question, I know you weren't necessarily referring to me in particular but it raises a point I'd like to try and make). I can't live life for anyone but me. I can offer my opinions, suggest things to try and help, but at the end of the day (where's the overly used cliche thread, hehe) "Its not even that?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 02:02 PM) ? The key in win's post was love, not the form of the sentence. Your examples are not analogous. That's fine, but it's not what the Pope was saying. I don't care...I am just saying my opinion on gay marriages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:02 PM) no, ignoring doctrine and fundemental teachings of Jesus, Paul, and other early church leaders= evil. ok, then. Jesus never uttered a word about gay people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:23 PM) You and Steff can walk topless down Main street, but ChiSoxyGirl cannot. Men and women with different rights. Steff isn't a woman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 The Pope can believe what he wants to believe, and he's speaking for his group of followers. ( Probably not 100% of his followers, but I can't even guess what percentage ). Religion is a belief system, not a fact-based system. Doesn't make the Pope right - he's right in the opinion of those who believe, but not for all. Me? I just try to get through life without hurting anyone and without anyone hurting me or my family. Beyond that, I can't control anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:23 PM) I do not believe this necessarily supports your argument. It could also be said that a responsible government establishes laws that responsible citizens follow until the laws are changed, if ever. By extension, equal rights do not extend to someone who is violating a law, for example. Also we have different laws for different people, and we accept those without hesitation. Cannot drink until 18 or 21. Cannot drive a car until you are 16. Cannot become President unless you are native born American. You and Steff can walk topless down Main street, but ChiSoxyGirl cannot. Men and women with different rights. There is no constitutional right to drink, smoke or drive. There is no constitutional right to become President. Citizens have a right to participate in government, that doesn't mean that every position is or should be open to every person. There is no constitutional right to go topless - and toplessness is something that is regulated at the local, not federal level. So, in some places, it is totally legal for Steff and ChiSoxyGirl to go topless. And in many cases, encouraged. Governments offer specific rights, benefits and responsibilities for heterosexual married couples, they refuse to offer the same rights, benefits and responsibilities for same sex couples who wish to enter the same covenant. For no reason other than being two males. Or females. And for the record, I also support a lowering of the drinking age, and the right of toplessness for people worldwide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:59 PM) Without absolute Good, how can you even begin to place value on things or actions? You can't be an atheist and claim any legitimate value system, because the things you place your beliefs in are arbitrary and completely based on the whims of the population...there's no absolute truth. By definition, there must exist a higher power. PA, you get up in arms when somebody makes sweeping generalizations or makes glip caricature portrayals of Christians, but you're doing precisely that here. "Absolute Good" doesn't exist as part of the human condition, save perhaps the innocence of a baby. But then again, that old original sin tarnishes even that. Therefore, absolute good exists merely in the person of a Divine Agent for you, or as a useful abstraction for charting a moral path for me. It's a draw, but we both understand where our actions fall on the scale set by that Agent/abstraction -- far short. Relative good is more than sufficient in a secular world where one strives to be a better person. Each day, you can try to do better than the day before, and in doing so you're heading in the right direction. Can't be an atheist and claim any legitimate value system?? That is 100% incorrect. A secular value system, like I told Tex, doesn't equate with a hedonistic anything goes morality. As a matter of fact, since it is based on levels of goodness that are humanly attainable the system is at least as legitimate as one based on a spiritual ideal good. As for "By definition, there must exist a higher power" -- well, that is tautology, pure and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 That is my definition of know in the sentence I used. If a definition of know is to actually talk to and engage with the person/deity, then how can anyone possibly question his word or his existence. Therefore, there wouldn't be any need of a question of if he exists or if we should follow his word. Ok, I was taking it as a statement of knowledge. There are plenty of people who claim to know their god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 QUOTE(knightni @ Feb 23, 2005 -> 06:54 PM) Steff isn't a woman? :banghead I rewrote that a few times. Oops. I edited the original, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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