Pope: Gay marriage is 'evil'?

[Texsox]

Jesus never uttered a word about gay people.

 

Some very intelligent Bible scholars would disagree with that statement.

Some very intelligent Bible scholars would agree with that statement.

 

I've read articles by both and believe somewhere in the middle, there is truth. WDJ, I hate to direct this at you, but you are here and answering.

 

You mentioned you tried to live a straight lifestyle. Why? What factors caused you to battle this? Could it be as simple as society makes life easier for a heterosexual breeder with 2.3 children? Or could it be some inner compass at work? The Bible is a great self help book, perhaps guiding people to a straight lifestyle does make people happier. I've seen stats regarding suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, and other self destructive lifestyles and it would seem that gays are as a group less happy than straights. If God loves us and wants us to be happy, wouldn't he encourage a straight lifestyle? I've never really explored that avenue of thought before, what does everyone think?

 

Somewhere earlier it was mentioned about the Bible having gray areas and it not be 100% clear. While that may be true, I also believe that God has made it easy enough for each of us to find our path. Can that path include a long term monogamous relationship with a member of the same sex? My heart tells me yes. The same heart that fuels everything else I am and hope to be. It's faith.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Jim, isn't it interesting how personal an "attack" on one's belief system can be? Maybe the inequal treatment of religious views makes a little more sense to you now.

 

"Levels of goodness" is a completely subjective principle. In my belief system, I encourage at least 6 other wives beside miss PA. That works for us and is an agreeable situation where we all share money and my sperm.

 

What happens then to the violater of the "good of the group/society"? should we exterminate them? Where do values like grace and mercy come from then?

 

 

PA, you get up in arms when somebody makes sweeping generalizations or makes glip caricature portrayals of Christians, but you're doing precisely that here.

 

and if think that "buddy jesus" or "hulk jesus" come close to anything that I've posted, we really have to take a step back and analyze the spices you're using in your tobacco

[CrimsonWeltall]

Jim, isn't it interesting how personal an "attack" on one's belief system can be? Maybe the inequal treatment of religious views makes a little more sense to you now.

 

Jim didn't seem the least bit annoyed. He very calmly pointed out you were just plain wrong.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Could it be as simple as society makes life easier for a heterosexual breeder with 2.3 children? Or could it be some inner compass at work?

 

...

 

The Bible is a great self help book, perhaps guiding people to a straight lifestyle does make people happier. I've seen stats regarding suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, and other self destructive lifestyles and it would seem that gays are as a group less happy than straights.

 

In regard to the suicides, drug and alcohol abuse, and other self destructive lifestyles, I would say that gays are as a group MADE TO BE less happy BY THE straights.

 

I'm sure it's like never getting out of that high school stage where you would do anything to just fit in. Only here, instead of wearing the right shoes or having the coolest car, you have to try to be something that you so totally and complettely are not.

 

Why do you think that the overwhelming majority of gays are not out? It's because the straight and narrows pretty much make life a s*** sandwich for the groups that don't fit in. So, since it's easier to be gay passing as straight, rather than say, being black trying to pass as white, most gays do this for a substantial portion of their lives.

 

Only they know it's a lie. Damned if you do and if you don't - either waste your time trying to appease society, or be true to yourself and suffer society's wrath for it.

 

If God loves us and wants us to be happy, wouldn't he encourage a straight lifestyle?

Well, theodicy-minded anti-theologian that I am, I would suggest that if God loves us and wants us to be happy, he would encourage more tolerant lifestyles so we didn't all make each other so miserable for so much of the time.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Jim didn't seem the least bit annoyed.  He very calmly pointed out you were just plain wrong.

 

 

go drink your kool-aid elsewhere and stop sucking up...

[Soxy]

Not to totally hijack this thread, but....

 

I think it's interesting that the biggest debate in religion seems to be the debate on gay marriage. While, it appears, a myriad of things Jesus was much more fervent about seem to fall to the wayside because they affect more people.

 

One of the things Jesus went on about most in the Gospels was the evils of possessions--how they end up owning you, you can't serve 2 masters, harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven, sending away the young man because he wouldn't give it all up, the widow's offering and the poor man's offering, Zacchieus, Judas selling Christ for silver (and those are the few examples I can think of off the top of my head--I know there's more). Yet we live in a country that is the wealthiest in the world--and prides itself on its overwhelmingly Christian majority. I think there's a disconnect there. Why, oh, why isn't this one of the MOST talked about issues facing Christianity? I am honestly, honestly baffled by this.

[CrimsonWeltall]

go drink your kool-aid elsewhere and stop sucking up...

 

[Texsox]

Not to totally hijack this thread, but....

 

I think it's interesting that the biggest debate in religion seems to be the debate on gay marriage. While, it appears, a myriad of things Jesus was much more fervent about seem to fall to the wayside because they affect more people.

 

One of the things Jesus went on about most in the Gospels was the evils of possessions--how they end up owning you, you can't serve 2 masters, harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven, sending away the young man because he wouldn't give it all up, the widow's offering and the poor man's offering, Zacchieus, Judas selling Christ for silver (and those are the few examples I can think of off the top of my head--I know there's more). Yet we live in a country that is the wealthiest in the world--and prides itself on its overwhelmingly Christian majority. I think there's a disconnect there. Why, oh, why isn't this one of the MOST talked about issues facing Christianity? I am honestly, honestly baffled by this.

 

Good post and greater hijack Sadly I believe this is partly blamed on the religion for profit movement. Once the Communist scare was gone, they needed a rallying point and gays seem to be the new enemy. Like posty 9/11 America, nothing brings an organization together quicker and stronger than a common enemy.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Not to totally hijack this thread, but....

 

I think it's interesting that the biggest debate in religion seems to be the debate on gay marriage. While, it appears, a myriad of things Jesus was much more fervent about seem to fall to the wayside because they affect more people.

 

One of the things Jesus went on about most in the Gospels was the evils of possessions--how they end up owning you, you can't serve 2 masters, harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven, sending away the young man because he wouldn't give it all up, the widow's offering and the poor man's offering, Zacchieus, Judas selling Christ for silver (and those are the few examples I can think of off the top of my head--I know there's more). Yet we live in a country that is the wealthiest in the world--and prides itself on its overwhelmingly Christian majority. I think there's a disconnect there. Why, oh, why isn't this one of the MOST talked about issues facing Christianity? I am honestly, honestly baffled by this.

 

 

Wow, now we're talking. I'd much rather talk about this to be honest.

 

1 John 3:16

 

"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. "

[sox4lifeinPA]

             

 

 

For pity's sake, I can't respond to that sad, sad post. Use your mind to respond to me, not your little brother.

[Soxy]

Wow, now we're talking. I'd much rather talk about this to be honest. 

 

1 John 3:16 

 

"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. "

Exactly! Right there! That's the disconnect.

 

I mean, I think that part of it really is that we're wealthy. I also think part of it might be a lot of the protestent churches docterine of faith and faith alone. But I also think that it's much easier to point the finger at someone else (wearing J Crew, driving a Benz, and in the comfort of our own home) than to give all that you have.

 

I will never forget sitting in my ethics class with these really condescending and condeming kids as they lectured to the rest of us about what terrible Christians we were for this and that as they sat there in Abercrombie, Nike, and other overpriced stuff. The irony of it almost made me laugh.

 

That's why I am amazed when people say we give enough in foreign aid, to charities, etc. Would Jesus have said we give enough as we live in this lap of luxury? I doubt it....

[FlaSoxxJim]

Jim didn't seem the least bit annoyed.  He very calmly pointed out you were just plain wrong.

 

No, I didn't feel I was personally being attacked by PA in any way. I read a reiteration of a rather tired opinion on secular humanism and the 'absolute and utter despair' such a life must convey, and I responded as I felt appropriate.

 

PA, I also responded to the charge of "inequal treatment of religious views" is the other thread and basically said that until one's religious views compell him/her to infringe on the rights of others then more power to them. Once that person's religious views try to externally force conformity on others then he/she should be ready to get an earful on the matter.

 

Where do values like grace and mercy come from then?

 

Well, there are perfectly good secular definitions of both, suggesting a secular origin is reasonable. Mercy as compassion/forbearance of another when you don't have to, rather than an act of Divine favor. Grace as charm, humility, or a sense of propriety rather than a gift of virtue from a Divine Agent.

[Texsox]

Wow, now we're talking. I'd much rather talk about this to be honest. 

 

1 John 3:16 

 

"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. "

 

PA, how do you reconcile this with the GOP view that we should only feed someone for two years than let the lazy bum starve?

[CrimsonWeltall]

For pity's sake, I can't respond to that sad, sad post. Use your mind to respond to me, not your little brother.

 

You just did respond to it. Exactly what kind of highly stimulating response were you expecting to your crap about drinking kool-aid?

[FlaSoxxJim]

             

 

Suck up.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Exactly! Right there! That's the disconnect.

 

I mean, I think that part of it really is that we're wealthy. I also think part of it might be a lot of the protestent churches docterine of faith and faith alone. But I also think that it's much easier to point the finger at someone else (wearing J Crew, driving a Benz, and in the comfort of our own home) than to give all that you have.

 

I will never forget sitting in my ethics class with these really condescending and condeming kids as they lectured to the rest of us about what terrible Christians we were for this and that as they sat there in Abercrombie, Nike, and other overpriced stuff. The irony of it almost made me laugh.

 

That's why I am amazed when people say we give enough in foreign aid, to charities, etc. Would Jesus have said we give enough as we live in this lap of luxury? I doubt it....

 

 

 

I'd like to restate your thesis, which is that THIS is what Jesus' message was far more than other issues. However, we cannot just look past those other things. I think there's a need to do a major "spring cleaning" of the american church. I totally agree with you about the abercrombie, Benz, etc stuff.

 

I need sleep however.

[Texsox]

I'd like to restate your thesis, which is that THIS is what Jesus' message was far more than other issues. However, we cannot just look past those other things. I think there's a need to do a major "spring cleaning" of the american church. I totally agree with you about the abercrombie, Benz, etc stuff.

 

I need sleep however.

 

After you get a good nights sleep, think about this statement:

 

There is no "American Church". Nor should there be. Is there room on this planet for a society where every lawful belief system is allowed? And along a parallel line, is there room on this planet for a mono-belief country?

[sox4lifeinPA]

PA, how do you reconcile this with the GOP view that we should only feed someone for two years than let the lazy bum starve?

 

 

I want to live on a commune and partake in acts 2 style living. When it comes to government I'm quasi-liberitarian, when it comes to the church I'm quite socialist. I think that's my issue. I don't want the government to do what the church is supposed to be doing. The church is a billion dollar "corporation" with thousands of branches throughout the US. Acting independently but in conjunction with each other, we should be able to feed the poor, defended the fatherless, the widow and the alien.

 

I like the GOP because they at least pretend to care about my faith. (at least the core principles) The Dems seem to fill in the blanks from a secular standpoint, but they can't even seem to feign interest in my beliefs

[kapkomet]

The "American Church" is disgusting. Pathetic. Moronic. Misses the whole point.

 

"Religion" and "Church" is so bastardized.

 

That's one of the best things about where I go to worship. The preacher stand up there and says I messed up BAD, but this is the one place where you should be able to come and be who you are with NO criticism whatsoever. And he's the first preacher who I can honestly tell that he means it. He holds up the bible and says we need to live that life and screw what the "churches" think. Pretty innovative for today's "church".

 

Coincidentially, it's in one of the most affluent areas in the United States.

 

I think that way too often, we totally miss the boat because of our silver spoons in the United States.

 

Would we have the beliefs we do if our lives were on the line like first Century Christians? Probably not.

 

Interesting topic, as long as it holds ... good call, Soxy.

[sox4lifeinPA]

After you get a good nights sleep, think about this statement:

 

There is no "American Church". Nor should there be. Is there room on this planet for a society where every lawful belief system is allowed? And along a parallel line, is there room on this planet for a mono-belief country?

 

 

The American Church is the evangelical church in the United states. Some people know what that means, others not. my bad. I don't mean that as a proper name, but I mean that in the post-modern state. My church in the US practices a different form of christianity than a fledgling church in a developing country. I mean that in a somewhat condemning way towards "our" church...the extremely wealthy church of the united states which chisoxygirl was describing most bitingly.

[sox4lifeinPA]

The "American Church" is disgusting.  Pathetic.  Moronic.  Misses the whole point.

 

"Religion" and "Church" is so bastardized.

 

That's one of the best things about where I go to worship.  The preacher stand up there and says I messed up BAD, but this is the one place where you should be able to come and be who you are with NO criticism whatsoever.  And he's the first preacher who I can honestly tell that he means it.  He holds up the bible and says we need to live that life and screw what the "churches" think.  Pretty innovative for today's "church".

 

Coincidentially, it's in one of the most affluent areas in the United States.

 

I think that way too often, we totally miss the boat because of our silver spoons in the United States.

 

Would we have the beliefs we do if our lives were on the line like first Century Christians?  Probably not.

 

Interesting topic, as long as it holds ... good call, Soxy.

 

 

two sleepy eyed thumbs up. your church and my church in texas need to go out on a date sometime.... they'd like each other

[southsider2k5]

PA, how do you reconcile this with the GOP view that we should only feed someone for two years than let the lazy bum starve?

 

That is a huge generalization that is absolutely wrong. The GOP doesn't believe in making people starve. They also don't believe that people should depend on the government. The difference being that they believe that the private structure should help to take care of people. Charities are meant to be run by private people, not the federal government. The GOP believes the churches should be feeding people, not government cheese. There obviously needs to be a safety net for people who are unable to take care of themselves, but there are many people who do not fall into that group.

[southsider2k5]

Not to totally hijack this thread, but....

 

I think it's interesting that the biggest debate in religion seems to be the debate on gay marriage. While, it appears, a myriad of things Jesus was much more fervent about seem to fall to the wayside because they affect more people.

 

One of the things Jesus went on about most in the Gospels was the evils of possessions--how they end up owning you, you can't serve 2 masters, harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven, sending away the young man because he wouldn't give it all up, the widow's offering and the poor man's offering, Zacchieus, Judas selling Christ for silver (and those are the few examples I can think of off the top of my head--I know there's more). Yet we live in a country that is the wealthiest in the world--and prides itself on its overwhelmingly Christian majority. I think there's a disconnect there. Why, oh, why isn't this one of the MOST talked about issues facing Christianity? I am honestly, honestly baffled by this.

 

This is a great post, and I have had this discussion with more than a few people.

[Wong & Owens]

One of the things Jesus went on about most in the Gospels was the evils of possessions--how they end up owning you, you can't serve 2 masters, harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter heaven, sending away the young man because he wouldn't give it all up, the widow's offering and the poor man's offering, Zacchieus, Judas selling Christ for silver (and those are the few examples I can think of off the top of my head--I know there's more). Yet we live in a country that is the wealthiest in the world--and prides itself on its overwhelmingly Christian majority. I think there's a disconnect there. Why, oh, why isn't this one of the MOST talked about issues facing Christianity? I am honestly, honestly baffled by this.

 

While I certainly don't disagree with the concept of charity, or the idea that there are numerous things more important than wealth, let me put forth a secular spin on this biblical reference.

 

Where would people's money/possessions go when people, in the spirit of being a good christian, wished to rid themselves of them? The church maybe? And, I'm referring to the time when the bible was written, not modern times. The church would receive every donated dime. How convenient. And, speaking to its own hypocrisy, how many billions of dollars does the Vatican have sitting in various vaults/hermetically sealed rooms?

[sox4lifeinPA]

While I certainly don't disagree with the concept of charity, or the idea that there are numerous things more important than wealth, let me put forth a secular spin on this biblical reference.

 

Where would people's money/possessions go when people, in the spirit of being a good christian, wished to rid themselves of them?  The church maybe?  And, I'm referring to the time when the bible was written, not modern times.  The church would receive every donated dime.  How convenient.  And, speaking to its own hypocrisy, how many billions of dollars does the Vatican have sitting in various vaults/hermetically sealed rooms?

 

 

I'm sorry, but you just don't understand the new testament church. "the church" as we have come to know the vatican, etc is the evil step-sister whore that it was never intended to be. That's the point of this new spin on this thread.

 

The early church didn't exist inside of building, it was in people's homes. It was community, not three points on a sermon sheet and a prayer. donations didn't go in some collection plate that ended up in some vault that was counted and recounted by corrupt bishops.

 

42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.