Pope back in the hospital

[TheBigHurt35]

I dont mean to be disrespectful to him, but as a Lutheran, I really dont hold him any higher than any other human being.

 

As a Presbyterian, I disagree with that statement. In fact, I hold just about all religious figures in higher regard than the average human being (including myself). As for the Pope, he's 84, has Parkinson's disease, he's been near death for the past two weeks, and yet he still desires to carry the burden of Head of the Catholic Church. Yeah, I'd say that he's a better man than I.

[YASNY]

He's just a man. Period. He may be escorted through the gates of heaven by St. Peter, himself, but I'm sure that several past popes never came close to getting through those gates.

[southsider2k5]

Thou shall not kill seems clear, yet we still have Capital Punishment. Even the clear stuff gets debated.

 

It gets debated by man. It doesn't change anything.

[Texsox]

It gets debated by man.  It doesn't change anything.

 

Sadly, that is true.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I am actually curious if anyone can show me the biblical justification for the Pope, because in my self-admitted limited knowledge I can't find it.

 

This is what I found in reguards to what the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) believe about the Pope....

 

The Pope

 

1] The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

4] These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.

[Texsox]

This is what I found in reguards to what the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) believe about the Pope....

 

The Pope

Denouncing the Pope and a other beliefs that Catholics hold, is the only way Protestant Churches can exist, so this isn't much of a surprise. If they agreed with Catholic doctrine concerning the Pope, they would have to shut their doors or hire a Priest.

[HuskyCaucasian]

so it would be pretty easy to interpret that verse as saying He is depending on him to do this important job and the church depends on it, not you are to be the leader of the church, if taken in its full context.

 

See, that is a very fine line. I believe that the Church on earth needs a leader. I am a Lutheran and we have a President. BUT, our president is not "higher" than all others on earth. We dont kiss his hand everytime we see him. He is simply a leader. He is falable. He disnt have the right to alter our beliefs. He is in charge of maintaining them.

[TheBigHurt35]

Denouncing the Pope and a other beliefs that Catholics hold,  is the only way Protestant Churches can exist, so this isn't much of a surprise.

 

That's just a ridiculous "we're better than you" statement. :rolly

[southsider2k5]

That's just a ridiculous "we're better than you" statement. :rolly

 

Actually on the surface that is a very true statement. If the Pope isn't legitimate, it makes it a lot easier for a schism to take place.

[Texsox]

That's just a ridiculous "we're better than you" statement. :rolly

 

My words are failing me here. Like a rule of physics that no two object can occupy the same space in the same time. I didn't mean to imply a better better than you statement. Protestants do not accept the Pope and his role.

How could they accept

1] The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

 

And be a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Latter Day Saints, etc? Maybe I'm not being clear, but imagine of a Methodist Minister said that yes, The Pope is necessary for our Salvation, he is infallible, and is above all Methodist Pastors and is the vicar of Christ on earth? They would run him out.

 

If you accept Catholic doctrine on this, you must be a Catholic. If you are a Protestant, you must reject this doctrine. I do not see a way to integrate both.

Edited February 25, 2005 by Texsox

[Texsox]

Actually on the surface that is a very true statement.  If the Pope isn't legitimate, it makes it a lot easier for a schism to take place.

 

I wasn't thinking of this from a marketing perspective, although that is true. Witnessing to never were, only by Baptism, or never will again Catholics is lucrative ground for Churches.

 

I was speaking more to the major theological split. But thank you for helping to clarify and amplify one of my points.

[TheBigHurt35]

Protestants do not accept the Pope and his role.

 

Of course, but there's no need to imply that Protestants exist only to denounce the Pope. I understand the history behind the schism, but the idea that the entire presmise of being Protestant is to denounce the Pope and the beliefs of the Catholic Church is antiquated and misleading. Most Protestants I know don't feel strongly one way or another about the Catholic Church.

Edited February 25, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[Texsox]

Of course, but there's no need to imply that Protestants exist only to denounce the Pope.  I understand the history behind the schism, but the idea that the entire presmise of being Protestant is to denounce the Pope and the beliefs of the Catholic Church is antiquated and misleading.  Most Protestants I know don't feel strongly one way or another about the Catholic Church.

 

I agree. The point I poorly made was Protestant Churches all have doctrine that disagrees with the Catholic Church in this area. I certainly did not want to suggest that was the only reason those Churches exist. I did want to point out the two belief systems cannot co-exist.

[TheBigHurt35]

I agree. The point I poorly made was Protestant Churches all have doctrine that disagrees with the Catholic Church in this area. I certainly did not want to suggest that was the only reason those Churches exist. I did want to point out the two belief systems cannot co-exist.

 

Alright, we're cool then.