US Troops shoot freed Journo

[knightni]

And it knew karate.

[Texsox]

And it knew karate.

 

is that a mini cooper?

[southsider2k5]

It seems the US account might be true after all, and the Italian intelligence agency might not have told the US forces about the deal Italy was working.

 

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307-120131-5769r.htm

 

What's the truth? Who knows.

[KipWellsFan]

"The United States doesn't approve of this [ransom] policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.

 

I strongly doubt that's true.

[Texsox]

Official US Policy is we do not negotiate with terrorists. Unofficially we may negotiate with a 3rd party who negotiates with the terrorist.

[southsider2k5]

I strongly doubt that's true.

 

If anything its a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing where they just look the other way. The last thing they would be doing is intentionally harming the few allies they have over there.

[TheBigHurt35]

I'm not certain where you are going with this. My much earlier post was pointing out that recently, the Italian public and government was outraged at US military conduct and punishment. Public opinion in Italy will once again be anti-American  for this action.

 

Two words: Who cares?

 

This woman works for a communist newspaper and is, therefore, anti-American. So, if this ignorant b**** and her equally uninformed supporters want to believe that the U.S. government purposely targeted her (as if she's important or something), let them. Italians who have more than 10 functioning brain cells have already realized that someone simply made a mistake.

 

To paraphrase Bill O'Reilly, you can't argue with illogical people. Communists are, by definition, misguided.

Edited March 7, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[Rex Kickass]

When one of your own is shot, its rare that public reaction is a shrug and "s*** happens."

[TheBigHurt35]

When one of your own is shot, its rare that public reaction is a shrug and "s*** happens."

 

And when one gets shot in a freaking war zone, most people with clear minds don't go bezerk with outrage.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

And when one gets shot in a freaking war zone, most people with clear minds don't go bezerk with outrage.

 

*Cough Daniel Pearl Cough*

[TheBigHurt35]

*Cough Daniel Pearl Cough*

 

Wow, the anti-Americans are out in full force today. :rolly

 

Daniel Pearl was brutally murdered by terrorists. The Italian passenger in this case was shot accidentally and it was just as likely the fault of his own people as it was the U.S troops. So, no, your comparison is completely ridiculous.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Wow, the anti-Americans are out in full force today.    :rolly

 

Daniel Pearl was brutally murdered by terrorists.  The Italian passenger in this case was shot accidentally and it was just as likely the fault of his own people as it was the U.S troops.  So, no, your comparison is completely ridiculous.

 

No -- your statement was that when journalists get killed/injured in a war zone, there should not be outrage. So no, my comparison adding Daniel Pearl was not ridiculous. The only thing ridiculous in this thread is calling anybody who doesn't blindly follow the Bushies as "anti-American".

[TheBigHurt35]

No -- your statement was that when journalists get killed/injured in a war zone, there should not be outrage.  So no, my comparison adding Daniel Pearl was not ridiculous.  The only thing ridiculous in this thread is calling anybody who doesn't blindly follow the Bushies as "anti-American".

 

Yes, it was ridiculous. I said "shot" and, if you had a grasp on the facts, you would've known that Daniel Pearl was beheaded. I also don't recall Pearl ignoring warnings from U.S. soldiers to stop as he was driving though a checkpoint. Again, comparing a brutal, pre-meditated murder to a collateral damage casualty due to miscommunication is nothing short of asinine.

 

Ridiculous are the people who give credence to this commie b**** and her "America tried to murder me" bulls*** for the sake of making Bush look bad.

Edited March 8, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Yes, it was ridiculous.  I said "shot" and, if you had a grasp on the facts, you would've known that Daniel Pearl was beheaded.  I also don't recall Pearl ignoring warnings from U.S. soldiers to stop as he was driving though a checkpoint.  Again, comparing a brutal, pre-meditated murder to a collateral damage casualty due to miscommunication is nothing short of asinine.

 

Ridiculous are the people who give credence to this commie b**** and her "America tried to murder me" bulls*** for the sake of making Bush look bad.

I'm not giving credence to "this commie b****" (cunning strategy of demeaning the messenger rather than the message) -- I'm simply going off what you said. If a journalist is injured in a war zone, people should not be concerned since they are in a war zone after all and the threat of harm comes with the territory. I'm just taking what you said about journalists getting in harm's way & then b****ing when they get hurt to its logical conclusion. No double standards when one standard will work just fine.

 

And if you've read my previous posts in this thread -- its this sort of "Well she's just a commie b****" attitude that is making the world image of the US look like complete s***. This whole "America is never wrong!" attitude is childish and asinine. God forbid we apologize for making a mistake.

[Texsox]

Daniel Pearl, and all civilians in the war zone, ignored repeated warnings from the terrorists that they would be executing people. Not saying it is fair, or not, just pointing out that warnings do not excuse behavior.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Daniel Pearl, and all civilians in the war zone, ignored repeated warnings from the terrorists that they would be executing people. Not saying it is fair, or not, just pointing out that warnings do not excuse behavior.

 

Go back to Russia with the rest of the Commies, okay Stalin?!

[TheBigHurt35]

If a journalist is injured in a war zone, people should not be concerned since they are in a war zone after all and the threat of harm comes with the territory.  I'm just taking what you said about journalists getting in harm's way & then b****ing when they get hurt to its logical conclusion.  No double standards when one standard will work just fine.

 

You still fail to recognize the difference between being hit by indiscriminatory fire and being kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded because of one's race and/or religion. Did you catch the story about Reuters cameraman Mazen Dana being killed by a mortar round back in August? Or how about the one about Washington Post columnist Michael Kelly, who was killed in a Humvee accident?

 

Most people recognize the difference between bad luck and the intentional slaughter of civilians. Most consider the former an unfortunate, but inevitable part of war. The latter, however, is only accepted by terrorists.

 

And if you've read my previous posts in this thread -- its this sort of "Well she's just a commie b****" attitude that is making the world image of the US look like complete s***.  This whole "America is never wrong!" attitude is childish and asinine.  God forbid we apologize for making a mistake.

 

Well, that's because communism is wrong. History has clearly shown that it doesn't work.

 

This woman clearly has an anti-American agenda and she doesn't deserve a shred of respect from me. Being angry at the U.S. troops for accidentally opening fire on her car is certainly understandable. Trying to undermine our government with her "Bush tried to assassinate me!" rhetoric, however, is not and, frankly, gives me every right to give this left-wing America-hater the "b****" label.

 

And I agree that we should apologize for making a mistake (if, indeed, the investigation determines that we were at fault). Then again, it's equally possible that her driver made the mistake. We'll have to wait until the investigation is complete.

Edited March 8, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[LowerCaseRepublican]

During a press-conference shortly after the liberation of his girlfriend Giuliana Sgrena, the famous journalist for Il Manifesto who was kidnapped and held hostage in Iraq for nearly a month, Piero Scolari had this to say:

 

"It's like an hallucination, all of this is like an hallucination. Giuliana risked her lifed, they could have killed her. And I don't mean Iraqi criminal gangs but American soldiers. We are in the hands of madmen. We can't stay another minute longer down there. They fired more than 300-400 rounds on the car that was taking Giuliana to the airport... they were like madmen, our agents down there said, immediately after the shooting stopped. Complete insanity. They killed Nicola Calipari, an extraordinary man, a special person. Nicola died in order to save Giuliana, he shielded her with his body."

 

While the precise details of the shooting still remain unclear, and an angry Premier Silvio Berlusconi is demanding that the Bush administration conduct a thorough investigation to ensure that "someone assumes the responsibility for what has happened here," According to l'Unità, Scolari stated:

 

"The Americans shut down the cell phones of our agents who were with Giuliana. They shut them off while they [the agents] were speaking with Silvio Berlusconi, they prevented the emergency medical technicians from approaching the wounded," Scolari recounts, basing himself on the eyewitness testimony of the Italian secret service agents at the scene. But how is it possible that all this was allowed to happen? In that moment I shouted at the premier [berlusconi] that your war is to blame for this. This war is madness and these are the results that it produces."

 

Scolari dismisses as ridiculous the official story-line that has been circulating in US military circles that "the car was driving at full speed toward the American check point" where the shooting took place.

 

"Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had allerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. Any yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds. Why?"

 

--

So according to Italian secret service agents, the US cut off the cell phones & that Italian soldiers were waiting at the airport as well. It seems that the testimonials of the Italian secret service agents at the scene are in direct conflict with the Pentagon story. And excuse me if I am skeptical of a Pentagon that earlier in this war tried to give us the heroic tale of Jessica Lynch -- and their story flew in the face of what actually happened.

 

Now Italian Secret Service agents are backing the story produced by the journalist, so it kind of puts a damper on the "commie b****" theory regarding this case. Cuz Burlusconi can be called a lot of things but definitely not a Communist.

[Flash Tizzle]

Now Italian Secret Service agents are backing the story produced by the journalist, so it kind of puts a damper on the "commie b****" theory regarding this case.  Cuz Burlusconi can be called a lot of things but definitely not a Communist.

 

All Burlusconi is responsible for is his willingness to appease disgruntled citizens. Nowhere does he create these far fetched conspiracy theories. His comments merely imply a investigation of this incident should be done to prevent similar miscommunications from transpiring.

 

But you already know what potential investigations will find: "US military acted in accordance with the developing situation," "Communication failures existed among Italians, Americans." Ultimately, neither country wil shoulder the bourden. Nothing will be solved.

 

What descredits Sgrena's account is her ridiculous assassination theory. Why again would she be targed? To show those pizza slinging Italians negotiating ransom-for-hostage swaps only encourage further violence? If she was truly marked, why exactly is she alive? "400 rounds" should have killed everyone traveling within her convoy.

 

I truly believe the Italian drivers are responsible. Americans guarding checkpoints likely watch thousands of cars pass through their desonated areas. Whenever one decides to speed, or ignore requests to stop, the obvious assumption is these people are driving explosive-laced automobiles. I don't care what this communist newspaper columnist says, she was neither targeted nor blindly attacked.

[EvilMonkey]

If she was truly marked, why exactly is she alive? "400 rounds" should have killed everyone traveling within her convoy. 

 

This is key. If she is lying about the amount of rounds, what else could she be lying about? Sure, you can exaggerate a bit, but even 100 rounds should have killed more than one guy. She is making s*** up because she doesn't like Bush and/or America.

[TheBigHurt35]

During a press-conference shortly after the liberation of his girlfriend Giuliana Sgrena, the famous journalist for Il Manifesto who was kidnapped and held hostage in Iraq for nearly a month, Piero Scolari had this to say:

  

"It's like an hallucination, all of this is like an hallucination. Giuliana risked her lifed, they could have killed her. And I don't mean Iraqi criminal gangs but American soldiers. We are in the hands of madmen. We can't stay another minute longer down there. They fired more than 300-400 rounds on the car that was taking Giuliana to the airport... they were like madmen, our agents down there said, immediately after the shooting stopped. Complete insanity. They killed Nicola Calipari, an extraordinary man, a special person. Nicola died in order to save Giuliana, he shielded her with his body."

 

While the precise details of the shooting still remain unclear, and an angry Premier Silvio Berlusconi is demanding that the Bush administration conduct a thorough investigation to ensure that "someone assumes the responsibility for what has happened here," According to  l'Unità, Scolari stated:

  

"The Americans shut down the cell phones of our agents who were with Giuliana. They shut them off while they [the agents] were speaking with Silvio Berlusconi, they prevented the emergency medical technicians from approaching the wounded," Scolari recounts, basing himself on the eyewitness testimony of the Italian secret service agents at the scene. But how is it possible that all this was allowed to happen? In that moment I shouted at the premier [berlusconi] that your war is to blame for this. This war is madness and these are the results that it produces."

 

Scolari dismisses as ridiculous the official story-line that has been circulating in US military circles that "the car was driving at full speed toward the American check point" where the shooting took place.

  

"Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had allerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. Any yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds. Why?"

 

--

So according to Italian secret service agents, the US cut off the cell phones & that Italian soldiers were waiting at the airport as well.  It seems that the testimonials of the Italian secret service agents at the scene are in direct conflict with the Pentagon story.  And excuse me if I am skeptical of a Pentagon that earlier in this war tried to give us the heroic tale of Jessica Lynch -- and their story flew in the face of what actually happened.

 

Now Italian Secret Service agents are backing the story produced by the journalist, so it kind of puts a damper on the "commie b****" theory regarding this case.  Cuz Burlusconi can be called a lot of things but definitely not a Communist.

 

Well, that's their side of the story. And given this rhetoric,

 

"We are in the hands of madmen. We can't stay another minute longer down there...  In that moment I shouted at the premier [berlusconi] that your war is to blame for this. This war is madness and these are the results that it produces."

 

... it sounds like Mr. Scolari is speaking for the communist publication for which his girlfriend writes, rather than from a rational, unbiased position. Somehow, I'm not surprised.

 

What the Secret Service agents say has nothing to do with Burlusconi. Perhaps they're angry about taking orders from our military? I have no idea why they'd shut off their cell phones. Perhaps it has to do with military security? I have no idea.

 

Look, I have no problem admitting that some trigger-happy soldier may have panicked and made a terrible mistake. These guys are dealing with terrorist attacks every day and are under a tremendous amount of duress. However, that does not excuse what happened and, if the investigation does show that the American troops were to blame, they should definitely be brought to justice.

 

What I do have a problem with is someone making false claims about our government targeting civilians. I stand by my previous statement that Giuliana Sgrena is a b****. Her claim that the U.S. government purposely attempted to kill her is just plain asinine. It's nothing short of a grasp for fame and an attempt to sell a more copies of her paper to her already anti-American communist readership. Why would our government go after some no-name journalist who works for some two-bit communist newspaper in Italy? Oh, and don't you think that the soldiers might've finished the job if that was their intent? Ms. Sgrene's claim of "attempted assassination" is not only flat-out wrong, but irresponsible and dangerous as well.

Edited March 8, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I don't like she's saying it without a lot of evidence for the claim either.

 

But as more information comes out (i.e. the secret service agents discounting the initial US explanation), it just makes the US look worse and worse. It doesn't justify her claims at all but with the already suspect PR image of the US in the world stage, we can't afford more egg on our face getting busted in having eyewitnesses discount our statements. Instead of the government releasing an erroneous statement, take the time to develop a factual one.

[KipWellsFan]

Wouldn't it have been easier to have said "hey we apologize and we're going to look into this with an investigation" instead of "oh they were coming right at us, even as we were firing warning shots!". The whole situation is being blown out of proportion and since we'll probably never get any real good answers I hope this issue fades away soon.

[TheBigHurt35]

I don't like she's saying it without a lot of evidence for the claim either.

 

More like ZERO evidence and absolutely no motive on the part of the U.S. to commit the crime in the first place.

 

One theory being floated is that the Italian government was secretly removing her from the country because they didn't want our government to know that they paid off the terrorists for her release. That would explain why their Secret Service is backing her story. However, that's just a theory and, unlike Ms. Sgrena, I'm willing to differentiate theory from fact.

 

Of course, the irony in all of this is that the terrorists that she so staunchly opposes us eliminating would've gladly slit her throat had her government not (allegedly) forked over a huge sum of cash for her release.

 

I agree that the U.S. is taking a significant PR hit because of this, but just about anything we do over there will be viewed negatively by a significant population. It's a waste of time for us to worry about what some anti-American communist (hey, that's about as repetive as "Christian Catholic"!) thinks about our military. Those people are going to hate us no matter what we do.

Edited March 8, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[Texsox]

You still fail to recognize the difference between being hit by indiscriminatory fire and being kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded because of one's race and/or religion.  Did you catch the story about Reuters cameraman Mazen Dana being killed by a mortar round back in August?  Or how about the one about Washington Post columnist Michael Kelly, who was killed in a Humvee accident?

 

Most people recognize the difference between bad luck and the intentional slaughter of civilians.  Most consider the former an unfortunate, but inevitable part of war.  The latter, however, is only accepted by terrorists.

Well, that's because communism is wrong.  History has clearly shown that it doesn't work.

 

This woman clearly has an anti-American agenda and she doesn't deserve a shred of respect from me.  Being angry at the U.S. troops for accidentally opening fire on her car is certainly understandable.  Trying to undermine our government with her "Bush tried to assassinate me!" rhetoric, however, is not and, frankly, gives me every right to give this left-wing America-hater the "b****" label.

 

And I agree that we should apologize for making a mistake (if, indeed, the investigation determines that we were at fault).  Then again, it's equally possible that her driver made the mistake.  We'll have to wait until the investigation is complete.

 

 

If it was an accident, what difference does it make what political views the journalist who is living or the DEAD Special Ops Agent have?