Harris the Super Sub

[JUGGERNAUT]

Reading between the lines in today's articles it seems that KW & Oz are leaning towards the idea of keeping Harris on the roster as a backup for CF, SS, & 2B.

 

Assuming Harris can prove to be adequate D at those positions I approve of this move.

Having a solid bat vs RH with excellent speed on the bench is a major plus for any team. The additions of both Raines & Pods will greatly improve Harris ability to steal bases. Keeping Harris negates the need for a backup IF & opens the possibility of either adding Burke or a 12th arm. Either option makes the Sox a better team.

[Dick Allen]

I still can't see him at SS. I think if they use him at SS, the also need to give him some time at 3B. I think if Uribe is the regular SS, he should only play SS. I think having your best SS play 3B when Crede is out of the line-up while having a total novice playing the most important defensive position would be ridiculous. Unless there is an injury or two, Harris has no spot on this team. He is total tradebait. His fate was sealed when Uguchi was brought in. If Atkins can impress, and Harris has a good spring, maybe KW could package them for a useful part.

[aboz56]

If Atkins can impress, and Harris has a good spring, maybe KW could package them for a useful part.

I'd settle for a spare part.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Small minded thinking like that is what keeps the team at 2nd.

 

Having a regular at SS who is more than adequate at 3B is a plus.

Especially when your 3B is sub-par. Having a solid bat v RH with excellent speed that can play SS is a plus. Say what you want about Harris but he has proven to be a very capable hitter vs RH.

 

Consider close & late:

Crede gets a hit. Oz can replace with Harris which greatly increases the possibility of a SB & an RISP situation. That's the difference betw winning & losing.

 

Crede is sucking all game. Replacing him with Harris again increases the odds of the Sox gettting an RISP situation.

 

Uribe will most likely never play 3B other than to spell Crede or replace him in the field in close & late situations. That's not going to have any effect on Uribe's ability to play SS. Harris will be used to spell both Uribe & Igs.

 

That's the best option the Sox have for all scenarios.

[Dick Allen]

Small minded thinking like that is what keeps the team at 2nd.

 

Having a regular at SS who is more than adequate at 3B is a plus.

Especially when your 3B is sub-par.  Having a solid bat v RH with excellent speed that can play SS is a plus.  Say what you want about Harris but he has proven to be a very capable hitter vs RH. 

 

Consider close & late:

Crede gets a hit.  Oz can replace with Harris which greatly increases the possibility of a SB & an RISP situation.  That's the difference betw winning & losing.

 

Crede is sucking all game.  Replacing him with Harris again increases the odds of the Sox gettting an RISP situation. 

 

Uribe will most likely never play 3B other than to spell Crede or replace him in the field in close & late situations. That's not going to have any effect on Uribe's ability to play SS. Harris will be used to spell both Uribe & Igs.

 

That's the best option the Sox have for all scenarios.

 

No, having Willie Harris play SS while moving your gifted SS to 3B is what makes 1st or 2nd place teams 3rd, 4th or 5th place teams. If Harris can play SS, he probably can play 3B. I don't think he will be able to adequately play either.

[qwerty]

No, having Willie Harris play SS while moving your gifted SS to 3B is what makes 1st or 2nd place teams 3rd, 4th or 5th place teams. If Harris can play SS, he probably can play 3B. I don't think he will be able to adequately play either.

 

I see him being like eckstein. While he is not your ideal choice he gets the job done just fine. Is there any really reason you do not think he can play shortstop or third base? I think third would be a lot harder on him than short, but no reason in my opinion why he cannot play short.

[CWSGuy406]

I still seem to think that the best option to provide depth at a lot of positions, as well as overall smarter moves would be to get rid of Timo, and to keep Burke up rather than Davis, and keep Valdez/Ozuna.

 

I'd do this because Davis is a .229 hitter vs. lefties in the past three years, and we don't have a catcher who can hit lefties very well. And, while Burke isn't a great option at third or the corner OF spots, he can still play them. And, well -- I think Timo doesn't do much for us, with Harris/Gload doing basically all that he does. But -- if he hits well in the clutch for us this season, I'll back off of him going into next year.

Edited March 8, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[Guest JimH]

Meanwhile, Wilson Valdez and Ozuna continue to impress.

 

I found it interesting that Valdez started at 3B and played well. Actually all four guys are playing pretty well according to all accounts ... Iguchi, Harris, Valdez, Ozuna.

 

My guess is this battle will continue for another two weeks at least.

 

Yet, I still have a big concern that a team like the Sox aiming for a division title is so thin in the infield. Harris is showing a good attitude and a willingness to play other positions and help the team. For that, he deserves credit. However I find it hard to believe that KW and Ozzie are content to go with a backup SS who hasn't played the position in 3-4 years and is getting a spring training crash course.

 

In addition, there is no capable 3B backup if you do not carry Ozuna or Valdez. I do not buy Uribe as a backup 3B, it is goofy to have your starting SS bounce around the infield, he will have enough to worry about. Neither Ozuna or Valdez are experienced at 3rd although it appears both can be adequate there.

 

Somehow I think Williams and Guillen are aiming higher than adequate. I think we will see this whole situation take several more twists and turns before it's settled.

[qwerty]

Can we borrow one of the indians thirty infielders? Would make life that much easier for us.

[WilliamTell]

I want to keep him around. But I don't want to see him taking time away from Uribe or Iguchi unless they struggle terribly. Who knows, Crede could struggle too. Those 3 spots have question marks all over.

[Guest JimH]

I still seem to think that the best option to provide depth at a lot of positions, as well as overall smarter moves would be to get rid of Timo, and to keep Burke up rather than Davis, and keep Valdez/Ozuna.

 

I'd do this because Davis is a .229 hitter vs. lefties in the past three years, and we don't have a catcher who can hit lefties very well.  And, while Burke isn't a great option at third or the corner OF spots, he can still play them.  And, well -- I think Timo doesn't do much for us, with Harris/Gload doing basically all that he does.  But -- if he hits well in the clutch for us this season, I'll back off of him going into next year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Williams said today that Timo is on the team, and we suspected that all along. But I think this is Timo's last year with the Sox.

 

But in considering the 25 man roster for April, Timo will be on it per Williams, so speculation or wishful thinking to the contrary appears moot.

[Whitewashed in '05]

I find it hard to believe that KW and Ozzie are content to go with a backup SS who hasn't played the position in 3-4 years and is getting a spring training crash course.

 

I don't, not if KW knew the 5th starter has been a main reason of failure for this team and didn't get anything close to proven at the ML level until this season...

[Chisoxfn]

I swear to god if they just trade him for some AAA roster fodder I will be so damn pissed. Willie is gonna play a vital role on this team, mark my words.

 

Not only that, but one day he will be one of the best leadoff men in baseball. And if I were another teams GM, I'd be trying to steal Willie away and I hope to hell Kenny doesn't fall for it.

 

If he does, it will echo the Kip Wells deal, imo, and bite the Sox in the ass.

[nitetrain8601]

Im with you on this Chisoxfn. I think Willie will prove to be wayyyyyyyyy more useful than many think on this board.

[beck72]

  Consider close & late:

Crede gets a hit.  Oz can replace with Harris which greatly increases the possibility of a SB & an RISP situation.  That's the difference betw winning & losing.

 

Crede is sucking all game.  Replacing him with Harris again increases the odds of the Sox gettting an RISP situation. 

Also consider this scenario: after Willie pinch runs, he goes into SS and moves Uribe to 3b [or you'd have willie at 3b]. After Willie's first error late in the game that costs the sox a game, who among the willie backers will say "I'm sorry, that was a really bad idea". Willie would blow more games with his defense than Koch did in the two yrs he was here.

 

Now I like Willie to play 2b. That's his spot. This talk of him playing SS and 3b is silly. It shouldn't happen with the sox. Not for a team that expects to contend for the playoffs. The Sox need a guy who can play 3b, SS and 2b without hurting the team with his defense. Willie would hurt the team w/ his defense at 3b and SS.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Also consider this scenario: after Willie pinch runs, he goes into SS and moves Uribe to 3b [or you'd have willie at 3b]. After Willie's first error late in the game that costs the sox a game, who among the willie backers will say "I'm sorry, that was a really bad idea". Willie would blow more games with his defense than Koch did in the two yrs he was here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is nothing in Harris' past (ML + ml) that suggests that is likely to happen. If happens so what? You're not looking at the alternative. The alternative is giving a struggling Crede the ab or leaving him on. If you manage your team in fear of what could happen you are asking for a loss. You should manage your team in hope of what could happen.

 

I think everyone would agree that replacing Crede in cl & late situations with Harris

either at the plate or on the base pads increases the Sox chances of scoring a run.

Likewise I think everyone could agree that those odds overshadow the possibility of Harris commiting an error when he takes the field. Harris' speed is not something that should be forgotten lightly.

 

As for whether Harris can play 3B it all comes down to the throw. Uribe has proven to the Sox he can both field the position & make the throw. My understanding is that Harris' biggest weakness as a CF is his arm. So I'm not certain he can consistently make the throw.

 

Let's not forget that we are debating this primarily because of Crede's past failure.

Crede is young enough to where there should not be an overt need to spell him that often. Ramirez had 547 AB in 145G, Crede had 490AB in 144G. If Crede can finally produce consistently then the primary need to replace him would be to gain an edge in foot speed. Who better to serve that role than Harris?

 

Uribe's fielding #'s: G, %, RF, ZR

2004 CWS 2B 77G .984 5.21 .792

2004 CWS 3B 27G .965 2.73 .804

2004 CWS SS 38G .983 5.29 .881

 

Crede's:

2004 CWS 3B 144G .965 2.43 .741

 

Harris:

2001 Bal CF 8G 1.000 2.73 .938

2002 CWS CF 6G 1.000 4.62 1.000

 

2002 CWS 2B 38G .985 5.32 .865

2003 CWS 2B 12G 1.000 4.69 .846

2004 CWS 2B 92G .990 5.16 .822

 

2003 CWS CF 61G .977 2.99 .912

2004 CWS CF 29G .982 2.26 .855

 

Rowand:

2004 CWS CF 126G .980 2.63 .921

 

For close & late the ideal situation would be for Harris to take over for Crede. When you look at his CF & 2B #'s you come to the conclusion he should be able to adequately replace Crede at 3B. Crede is no where near a GG & we should stop thinking of him in that context. Again considering that Bal started him as a CF I have to believe he can make the throw.

 

When you look at Harris in the context of a super-sub then you can ignore his pathetic #'s vs LH because as a manager you can control those matchups. A solid hitter vs RH, excellent foot speed, quality backup at 2B, & an adequate backup for CF, SS, & possibly 3B. I wouldn't be quick to trade him if I were KW.

[beck72]

There is nothing in Harris' past (ML + ml) that suggests that is likely to happen.  If happens so what? You're not looking at the alternative.  The alternative is giving a struggling Crede the ab or leaving him on. If you manage your team in fear of what could happen you are asking for a loss.  You should manage your team in hope of what could happen.

 

I think everyone would agree that replacing Crede in cl & late situations with Harris

either at the plate or on the base pads increases the Sox chances of scoring a run.

Likewise I think everyone could agree that those odds overshadow the possibility of Harris commiting an error when he takes the field.  Harris' speed is not something that should be forgotten lightly.

 

As for whether Harris can play 3B it all comes down to the throw.  Uribe has proven to the Sox he can both field the position & make the throw.  My understanding is that Harris' biggest weakness as a CF is his arm.  So I'm not certain he can consistently make the throw.

 

Let's not forget that we are debating this primarily because of Crede's past failure.

Crede is young enough to where there should not be an overt need to spell him that often.  Ramirez had 547 AB in 145G, Crede had 490AB in 144G.  If Crede can finally produce consistently then the primary need to replace him would be to gain an edge in foot speed.  Who better to serve that role than Harris?

 

 

For close & late the ideal situation would be for Harris to take over for Crede.  When you look at his CF & 2B #'s you come to the conclusion he should be able to adequately replace Crede at 3B.  Crede is no where near a GG & we should stop thinking of him in that context.  Again considering that Bal started him as a CF I have to believe he can make the throw. 

 

When you look at Harris in the context of a super-sub then you can ignore his pathetic #'s vs LH because as a manager you can control those matchups.  A solid hitter vs RH, excellent foot speed, quality backup at 2B, & an adequate backup for CF, SS, & possibly 3B. I wouldn't be quick to trade him if I were KW.

 

Harris has played one B game at SS and 0 at 3b. Yet you believe he could be a "super sub" who could play at least average defense at these spots? Absurd.

 

The key is not that I would want to trade Willie. The key is getting a guy who could conceivably take over for Crede or Uribe [at the bare minimum] for a game or two without hurting the club with his defense. Yet the ideal situation is this same UTL player could take over on a full time basis if one of those two should get hurt. Harris isn't the answer for either situations

[Texsox]

I'm a Harris fan and think he has the athleticism to play SS or 3b. I don't mind him getting 10-12 games at 3rd, another 15-20 at SS and 2nd. Hell Frank will probably get 4-6 1st base starts this season. If we can live with that, we can live with Willie at 3rd.

[witesoxfan]

Also consider this scenario: after Willie pinch runs, he goes into SS and moves Uribe to 3b [or you'd have willie at 3b]. After Willie's first error late in the game that costs the sox a game, who among the willie backers will say "I'm sorry, that was a really bad idea". Willie would blow more games with his defense than Koch did in the two yrs he was here.

 

Now I like Willie to play 2b. That's his spot. This talk of him playing SS and 3b is silly. It shouldn't happen with the sox. Not for a team that expects to contend for the playoffs. The Sox need a guy who can play 3b, SS and 2b without hurting the team with his defense. Willie would hurt the team w/ his defense at 3b and SS.

 

And why do we have to move Uribe to 3B and Harris to SS? Harris can't play 3B for an inning or 2?

 

If Chone Figgins can play 3B...I'm sure Willie can too. His arm is not good, but that's not the end of the world...he's not the starter or anything crazy like that. And odds are good we will have Burke on the roster too(or so I am assuming right now, since there is a spot free and Oz has mentioned how he would like a 3rd catcher who can play other positions as well...which is Burke).

[YASNY]

I'm a Harris fan and think he has the athleticism to play SS or 3b. I don't mind him getting 10-12 games at 3rd, another 15-20 at SS and 2nd. Hell Frank will probably get 4-6 1st base starts this season. If we can live with that, we can live with Willie at 3rd.

 

Frank has had two season ending injuries occur while playing 1B in recent years. He needs to be a DH and that's all.

[Jabroni]

Harris has played one B game at SS and 0 at 3b. Yet you believe he could be a "super sub" who could play at least average defense at these spots? Absurd.

 

The key is not that I would want to trade Willie. The key is getting a guy who could conceivably take over for Crede or Uribe [at the bare minimum] for a game or two without hurting the club with his defense. Yet the ideal situation is this same UTL player could take over on a full time basis if one of those two should get hurt. Harris isn't the answer for either situations

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. I can't believe Juggernaut is using Willie's defensive stats at 2B and CF to prove that he will be fine defensively at SS or 3B. Simple ridiculous. :rolly

[beck72]

I'm a Harris fan and think he has the athleticism to play SS or 3b. I don't mind him getting 10-12 games at 3rd, another 15-20 at SS and 2nd. Hell Frank will probably get 4-6 1st base starts this season. If we can live with that, we can live with Willie at 3rd.

 

I guess we'll see. I for one would be disappointed if the sox don't have someone in the UTL role who could play average to above avg defense at both 3B and SS

[JUGGERNAUT]

Agreed.  I can't believe Juggernaut is using Willie's defensive stats at 2B and CF to prove that he will be fine defensively at SS or 3B.  Simple ridiculous. :rolly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who said anything about fine? I said adequate. Which is another way of saying a slight dropoff from the person he's replacing. It's been said that Harris is arguably the best pure athlete on the team. Guys like him usually make the best utility players.

 

If not Harris then who? Let's here your options. Keep them real. The Sox don't have a few million to trade for Polanco.

[beck72]

Who said anything about fine?  I said adequate.  Which is another way of saying a slight dropoff from the person he's replacing. It's been said that Harris is arguably the best pure athlete on the team.  Guys like him usually make the best utility players.

 

If not Harris then who?  Let's here your options.  Keep them real.  The Sox don't have a few million to trade for Polanco.

 

Right now, Valdez and Ozuna are better fits than Willie. But I think the sox should upgrade with a guy like Cintron or even a guy like Bill Hall from MILW. Both are also good RH bats off the bench.

[moneyman6544]

Keeping Harris negates the need for a backup IF & opens the possibility of either adding Burke or a 12th arm.  Either option makes the Sox a better team.

 

The Sox are adding the 12th arm, I read it in today's Southtown.