Levine on Borchard's stock + Harris to Milwaukee?

[witesoxfan]

Is our entire bench going to be basically left handed?  The only person serviceable from the right hand side would be Ozuna/Valdez.  Everett (once Thomas comes back) is much better from the left side, along with Davis who can hit from the left side and awful from the right, Timo another left, and Mackowiak or Harris are lefties.  We have an extremely unbalanced bench.  We need to get a respectable right handed bat off the bench.

 

Davis is pretty bad from both the right and left side of the plate. However, in his career, he is actually a slightly better hitter RH.

 

Career wise -

vs LHP - .231 12 55 .693 in his career(377 ab's)

vs RHP - .239 26 149 .665 in his career(1135 ab's)

 

So basically, he is equally s***ty from both sides of the plate.

 

He did hit .280 with an OPS just under .900 against LHP in 03...but it was in like fewer then 60 ab's, so it is not a huge total.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Mackowiak, hit just .165 in his last 48 games and only .164 against lefthanded pitchers.

 

That drops his stock considerably in my opinion. Borchard still figures to be an everyday OF somewhere in MLB someday. This guy figures to always be a bench player. He is not the 2nd coming of Graf. We never should have let Graf go. He was always healthy with the Sox. I'm not willing to give up Borchard for that.

 

His #'s are heavily inflated by an unusual May: 295/977. I suspect that was the weakest part of the Bucs schedule. The other 5 months are Credesque like.

 

Seeing that it's so late in the season if Crede can't figure it out in ST

then KW should look to pkg Crede, Harris, & an arm for a real 3B. Ozuna/Valdez can then spell Uribe from time to time. Uribe has a strong health history so he's not much of an injury risk.

 

If I were KW I'd be looking at teams with vets at 3B who might be willing to take a shot on Crede's potential since they are not expected to contend.

[AddisonStSox]

I've been screaming for Mackowiak for two years now.

 

He would be an excellent fit for the White Sox and a local boy made good. He grew up a huge Sox fan and he was a Cub killer.

 

That said, I still think Willie Harris has more value. Yup, I said it.

 

Borchad and some prospect(s) for Mackowiak= In a heartbeat

 

Willie and Borchard for Mackowiak= Not so fast my friend

[JUGGERNAUT]

Borchad and some prospect(s) for Mackowiak= In a heartbeat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No way. I am not giving up Borchard & prospects to get a guy who is a worse hitter than Harris. The dump Borchard gang on this board is getting psychiotic.

[AddisonStSox]

No way.  I am not giving up Borchard & prospects to get a guy who is a worse hitter than Harris.  The dump Borchard gang on this board is getting psychiotic.

 

Woa. When have I ever been associated with the dump Borchard gang?

 

In fact, I have been rooting for Borchard to get on track for a couple of years now. He's really a good guy, it's just a shame his game did not translate well in the MLB, especially with that kinda of scratch.

 

But, one has to start to wake up and smell the coffee. How much longer are we going to wait for him to come around? Anderson and Sweeny are well on their way to coming up the MLB and producting. Anderson has looked solid in the field and he has a great stick. Sweeny has one of the better swings I have every seen in the Sox minor leagues.

 

Could Borchard eventually come around? Sure. Will he ever be an all-star? A resounding no. Would it be wise to try and trade him while some teams have the time and energy to invest in an underproducing player like him? You bet.

 

He is shaping up to be a change of scenary guy. It happens. It's a little disappointing, but it happens.

[beck72]

I could see a deal along the lines of Borchard and a bullpen arm like Matt Smith or Josh Fields for a young UTL guy from Pitt. like Freddy Sanchez. Bobby Hill likely wouldn't be traded, and Pitt also has Jose Castillo who can play SS and 2b. One of those guys should be available. Most likely Sanchez who's 27 and hasn't played much in the bigs.

 

Sanchez came up as a SS but can also play 2b and 3b. He might not beat out Ozuna for the UTL infield spot. But Sanchez could stay in AAA and be insurance in case of injury/ ineffectiveness to one of the 3 IF spots. He's always hit in the minors.

[beck72]

I know Freddy Sanchez fractured his right ankle in 2003. And he only played in 44 games in AAA last yr, hitting .264/.326/.360. Yet prior to 2004, he avg'd .323/.385/.446 in the minors. If he could play decent defense, the Sox could use his RH bat off the bench. Or he could concentrate on his defense in AAA, and be ready in case of injury. Pitt. may be ready to cut ties with him, like the Sox seem set to do with Joe B.

 

Getting a solid bat like his off the bench would be a decent move, esp. if the Sox could help Sanchez improve a little on defense. Tony Graf was never the best defensive guy. Yet he could always hit and do the little things. Sanchez sounds like he's got the makeup suited for the Sox. Here's Sanchez' BA Prospect Handbook writeup for 04:

 

"A career .323 hitter in the minors, Sanchez sprays line drives to all fields and has a good understanding of the strike zone. He has good pop for a middle infielder and drove the ball better than ever in 2003. He also wins high marks for his enthusiasm, hustle and instincts. Sanchez has played a lot of SS, but his below avg arm makes him better suited for 2b. His ankle problem may hurt his speed and range, which were average to begin with. Sanchez will battle Bobby Hill...., for the starting job at 2b. He could go back to SS, particularly if Jack Wilson...doesn't improve offensively."

 

BA's 2002 handbook also said Sanchez was a "gritty player who has soft hands on defense".

[CanOfCorn]

Pierzynski, Podsednik and Mackowiak, oh my.

Pierzynski, Podsednik and Mackowiak, oh my.

Pierzynski, Podsednik and Mackowiak, oh my.

Pierzynski, Podsednik and Mackowiak, oh my.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Could Borchard eventually come around?  Sure.  Will he ever be an all-star?  A resounding no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I strongly disagree. Borchard in my opinion will be a sink or swim player. Meaning he will either be an all-star or a flop. There will be no middle road with him. He is simply too talented a player for that option to exist. The only way he could become a middle road player is if an injury reduces some of his talent.

 

Sweeney & Anderson may be the future of the SOX OF but they are not Borchard. What I hope most Sox fans will understand is that Joe is a power threat from both sides of the plate. That makes him the rarest of players in the MLs. Joe's potential remains MVP type caliber. He's been hampered by injuries that slowed his growth which was already behind in college. Do you remember when the Sox traded Sosa? Sosa was a below avg hitter with a lot of K's before he was dealt. He had a ton of potential. It took him about 5 yrs of ML service before he clicked and went from being a below 250 hitter to a 300 hitter.

 

The last thing the Sox need is to make a mistake like that with Borchard. He's out of options next year. That gives the Sox one more year in hopes he realizes that potential. Having invested 5M in him already they should let it ride one more year.

 

Try to imagine this scenario:

Borchy hits 275, 100+RBI, 30+HR at Charlotte. As a late season call-up he puts up similar #'s with the Chi-Sox. What's his trade value worth then? I hope Sox fans will realize that all Borchy needs is to show more than glimmer of hope to other GM's that he can be the real deal & his stock will soar quickly. No GM in the league looks at him like they do other players.

[RockRaines]

I'm at the point right now, that whenever I see Levine on tv, I get upset. It's not good for my health.

 

As for this 'rumor', if they want to deal Borchard to the Pirates, fine. If they want to trade Harris, fine, just make sure whoever we get back has some speed. I'd like to see Ozzie have options at the end of a game if he needs someone to run.

I just dont like him at all, when he's on TV hes disgusting to me, and when he is on the radio all I can hear is his lisp. I cant stand that ass.

[YASNY]

I strongly disagree.  Borchard in my opinion will be a sink or swim player.  Meaning he will either be an all-star or a flop.  There will be no middle road with him.  He is simply too talented a player for that option to exist.  The only way he could become a middle road player is if an injury reduces some of his talent.

 

Sweeney & Anderson may be the future of the SOX OF but they are not Borchard.  What I hope most Sox fans will understand is that Joe is a power threat from both sides of the plate.  That makes him the rarest of players in the MLs.  Joe's potential remains MVP type caliber.  He's been hampered by injuries that slowed his growth which was already behind in college.  Do you remember when the Sox traded Sosa?  Sosa was a below avg hitter with a lot of K's before he was dealt.  He had a ton of potential.  It took him about 5 yrs of ML service before he clicked and went from being a below 250 hitter to a 300 hitter.

 

The last thing the Sox need is to make a mistake like that with Borchard.  He's out of options next year.  That gives the Sox one more year in hopes he realizes that potential.  Having invested 5M in him already they should let it ride one more year.

 

Try to imagine this scenario:

Borchy hits 275, 100+RBI, 30+HR at Charlotte.  As a late season call-up he puts up similar #'s with the Chi-Sox.  What's his trade value worth then?  I hope Sox fans will realize that all Borchy needs is to show more than glimmer of hope to other GM's that he can be the real deal & his stock will soar quickly.  No GM in the league looks at him like they do other players.

 

In the case of Joe Borchard, we think along the same lines.

[RockRaines]

  Do you remember when the Sox traded Sosa?  Sosa was a below avg hitter with a lot of K's before he was dealt.  He had a ton of potential.  It took him about 5 yrs of ML service before he clicked and went from being a below 250 hitter to a 300 hitter.

 

 

Wow, did you actually bring up Sosa?? Without his Roids, he is still a below average fielder and hitter. His power numbers are all that saved him, and they were primarily artificial. Borchard has some power potential, but even watching him run the bases, something seems off about him. Its happened before, sometimes there are promising players that do not make it, this is the last time we are going to send him back down to the minors, we should either trade him, or someone is going to take him off waivers. This is the time to deal.

[beck72]

Try to imagine this scenario:

Borchy hits 275, 100+RBI, 30+HR at Charlotte.  As a late season call-up he puts up similar #'s with the Chi-Sox.  What's his trade value worth then?  I hope Sox fans will realize that all Borchy needs is to show more than glimmer of hope to other GM's that he can be the real deal & his stock will soar quickly.  No GM in the league looks at him like they do other players.

 

Those numbers in AAA would certainly drop in the bigs. Realistically, Joe B would be lucky to hit .250 in the bigs, if he hit .275 in AAA, and have an OBP hovering near .300. [A Jose Valentin comparison comes to mind] Even with those power numbers, Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney project to be better fits [esp, offensively with high OBP, good avg] than Joe B---given that Rowand, Pods and Dye are locked in for at least the next two yrs.

 

You said yourself all Joe needs is to show a "glimmer of hope" [2 Hr's in spring?]. Joe has a good spring and he should have some value. Not quite what he could given your projection for 2005. But enough to get a decent player in return

[AddisonStSox]

I strongly disagree.  Borchard in my opinion will be a sink or swim player.  Meaning he will either be an all-star or a flop.  There will be no middle road with him.  He is simply too talented a player for that option to exist.  The only way he could become a middle road player is if an injury reduces some of his talent.

 

Fair enough. You've backed up your claims very well.

 

Believe me, I want nothing more than for your assessment of Borchard to become reality. However, I've also seen many talented collegiate athletes simply lose their game in translation. In the case of Borchard, he finds a way to stand out in the minor leagues but hit for a robust .180 something in the MLB. Now, to say Borchard is a potential MVP candidate, to me is quite a strech.

 

Here's how I see things thus far:

 

=

[BHAMBARONS]

Sweeney & Anderson may be the future of the SOX OF but they are not Borchard.  What I hope most Sox fans will understand is that Joe is a power threat from both sides of the plate.  That makes him the rarest of players in the MLs.  Joe's potential remains MVP type caliber.  He's been hampered by injuries that slowed his growth which was already behind in college.  Do you remember when the Sox traded Sosa?  Sosa was a below avg hitter with a lot of K's before he was dealt.  He had a ton of potential.  It took him about 5 yrs of ML service before he clicked and went from being a below 250 hitter to a 300 hitter.

 

The last thing the Sox need is to make a mistake like that with Borchard.  He's out of options next year.  That gives the Sox one more year in hopes he realizes that potential.  Having invested 5M in him already they should let it ride one more year.

 

Try to imagine this scenario:

Borchy hits 275, 100+RBI, 30+HR at Charlotte.  As a late season call-up he puts up similar #'s with the Chi-Sox.  What's his trade value worth then?  I hope Sox fans will realize that all Borchy needs is to show more than glimmer of hope to other GM's that he can be the real deal & his stock will soar quickly.  No GM in the league looks at him like they do other players.

 

 

 

That is very true I had the pleasure of watching Joe when he was a Baron in 2001 and he did things at the Canyon AKA the Hoover Met That i have never seen before and most likely won't see again 31 Homers and Hit 450 ft Shots from both sides of the plate in the same game. And yes with Charlotte's park kind of playing like a sandbox I think those numbers are not out of reach. I don't see any thing wrong with letting him have one more chance as you said Switch hitters with that kind of power are hard finds.

 

Tom

[beck72]

I think most of us believe Borchard should have a career in the majors, where he can hit for HR power. He'll probably always have a high strikeout total, a low OBP, and a low avg [between .250-.275 at best] though. [There are guys who strike out a lot and have a high OBP. But Joe hasn't ever done that, and there is no reason to expect his hitting eye to turn around]

 

The question then becomes, does Joe fit with the Sox in 2005 or 2006, in the best case scenario [high HR's, high K's, low OBP and low AVG]? It certainly seems the Sox brain trust are going in the opposite direction. With Anderson almost ready [power, avg and OBP], and sweet swinging Sweeney [avg, OBP and Power to develop] almost there, I find it hard to see where Joe fits

[tonyho7476]

I think most of us believe Borchard should have a career in the majors, where he can hit for HR power. He'll probably always have a high strikeout total, a low OBP, and a low avg [between .250-.275 at best] though. [There are guys who strike out a lot and have a high OBP. But Joe hasn't ever done that, and there is no reason to expect his hitting eye to turn around]

 

The question then becomes, does Joe fit with the Sox in 2005 or 2006, in the best case scenario [high HR's, high K's, low OBP and low AVG]? It certainly seems the Sox brain trust are going in the opposite direction. With Anderson almost ready [power, avg and OBP], and sweet swinging Sweeney [avg, OBP and Power to develop] almost there, I find it hard to see where Joe fits

 

It seems like we have too many outfielders. We have Pods/Rowaand and Dye for the next couple years, right? So it would seem that someone needs to be dealt. When the hell are all these guys going to find playing time?

[AddisonStSox]

I think most of us believe Borchard should have a career in the majors, where he can hit for HR power. He'll probably always have a high strikeout total, a low OBP, and a low avg [between .250-.275 at best] though. [There are guys who strike out a lot and have a high OBP. But Joe hasn't ever done that, and there is no reason to expect his hitting eye to turn around]

 

The question then becomes, does Joe fit with the Sox in 2005 or 2006, in the best case scenario [high HR's, high K's, low OBP and low AVG]? It certainly seems the Sox brain trust are going in the opposite direction. With Anderson almost ready [power, avg and OBP], and sweet swinging Sweeney [avg, OBP and Power to develop] almost there, I find it hard to see where Joe fits

 

Precisely.

 

Although Joe may come into his own and learn to consistantly slug HRs at the major league level, it appears that is the exact type of player this organization is trying to get away from. If we didn't have Anderson and Sweeney so close to MLB ready, I'd say let Joe battle it out.

 

I'm not saying a team doesn't need power production, but this team seems content with guys like Big Frank, Paulie, Dye, Jurrassic, and to a lesser extent Uribe, Crede, and Pierzynski for those types of numbers.

 

A guy like Mackowiak would better serve this club because he can hit MLB pitching while playing a few positions. He has played OF, 3B, and even a little 2B in his career. He's not going to win a batting title, but he doesn't have to. In my estimation, this club is in the "must win now" frame of mind, and Joe simply doesn't fit into that setting. Someone like Mackowiak can come in and instantly add depth at a few positions while giving you some confidence to start him if someone goes down for a longer period of time.

[KWs OK for Me]

Davis is pretty bad from both the right and left side of the plate.  However, in his career, he is actually a slightly better hitter RH.

 

Career wise -

vs LHP - .231 12 55 .693 in his career(377 ab's)

vs RHP - .239 26 149 .665 in his career(1135 ab's)

 

So basically, he is equally s***ty from both sides of the plate.

 

He did hit .280 with an OPS just under .900 against LHP in 03...but it was in like fewer then 60 ab's, so it is not a huge total.

 

What about last year? He hit .259 against RH pitchers and a whopping .173 against LH pitchers

[beck72]

A guy like Mackowiak would better serve this club because he can hit MLB pitching while playing a few positions.  He has played OF, 3B, and even a little 2B in his career.  He's not going to win a batting title, but he doesn't have to.  In my estimation, this club is in the "must win now" frame of mind, and Joe simply doesn't fit into that setting.  Someone like Mackowiak can come in and instantly add depth at a few positions while giving you some confidence to start him if someone goes down for a longer period of time.

 

It's hard to gauge Joe's value and what a team would be willing to part with. And would the sox go with a vet or a young guy with some potential in the trade. I'm not sure if Mackowiak is a good fit for the sox right now, as they wait on Crede. If it was June and Crede was hitting near .200, maybe. But the sox have too many LH's on the bench already. And it wouldn't solve the sox SS problem.

 

I definitely could see Rob available come the deadline, though, if Pitt. is in the cellar. He's been given a few chances to be an everyday player [in 02 and 04] Yet seems best fit as a bench guy.

[The Critic]

Try to imagine this scenario:

Borchy hits 275, 100+RBI, 30+HR at Charlotte.  As a late season call-up he puts up similar #'s with the Chi-Sox.  What's his trade value worth then?  I hope Sox fans will realize that all Borchy needs is to show more than glimmer of hope to other GM's that he can be the real deal & his stock will soar quickly.  No GM in the league looks at him like they do other players.

If Borchard hits close to 30HR after a September callup, I say we KEEP HIM!!!!

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Wasn't this Milwaukee idea already shot down by their GM. As for Borchard if we could get something decent for him I say we should of do it ASAP while they still have those homers fresh in their minds and not his eventual 0 for 40 strech he's bound to have.

[quickman]

I strongly disagree.  Borchard in my opinion will be a sink or swim player.  Meaning he will either be an all-star or a flop.  There will be no middle road with him.  He is simply too talented a player for that option to exist.  The only way he could become a middle road player is if an injury reduces some of his talent.

 

Sweeney & Anderson may be the future of the SOX OF but they are not Borchard.  What I hope most Sox fans will understand is that Joe is a power threat from both sides of the plate.  That makes him the rarest of players in the MLs.  Joe's potential remains MVP type caliber.  He's been hampered by injuries that slowed his growth which was already behind in college.  Do you remember when the Sox traded Sosa?  Sosa was a below avg hitter with a lot of K's before he was dealt.  He had a ton of potential.  It took him about 5 yrs of ML service before he clicked and went from being a below 250 hitter to a 300 hitter.

 

The last thing the Sox need is to make a mistake like that with Borchard.  He's out of options next year.  That gives the Sox one more year in hopes he realizes that potential.  Having invested 5M in him already they should let it ride one more year.

 

Try to imagine this scenario:

Borchy hits 275, 100+RBI, 30+HR at Charlotte.  As a late season call-up he puts up similar #'s with the Chi-Sox.  What's his trade value worth then?  I hope Sox fans will realize that all Borchy needs is to show more than glimmer of hope to other GM's that he can be the real deal & his stock will soar quickly.  No GM in the league looks at him like they do other players.

 

 

now tell me his real numbers not the imaginary numbers. Borchard sucks and if we hang on to him much longer we will get nothing. Your a huge numbers guy, the last two years borchards numbers suck and his Winter league numbers suck as well. This of course is all speculation because bruce levine is just wrong most of the time but if I can get a player that will help me win this year, I do it. Most minor league players never make it.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Let's face facts. Even though his attitude is great he wouldn't still be here if we hadn't committed 5.3 million to him. And I don't blame management for wanting to keep him to see if they can get a return on their investment. If it were my money, I'd probably feel the same way