Psyched about the future

[SouthSideScraper]

Whoops. I was looking at the espn.com salaries for the ball club. I guess that's what he made last year.

 

I agree that Paulie isn't worth more than 9million. I don't think that he'll ask for more in order to stick around, but ball players get funny when it comes to cash.

I hope he stays, and doesn't get to big for his britches.

 

And as for BMac.

I hope he's as good as we're all hoping. Lord knows we could use him. I'm not down talking him, I'm just saying lets see how the hitters handle him during the season.

[SouthSideScraper]

Whoops.  I was looking at the espn.com salaries for the ball club.  I guess that's what he made last year.

 

I agree that Paulie isn't worth more than 9million.  I don't think that he'll ask for more in order to stick around, but ball players get funny when it comes to cash.

I hope he stays, and doesn't get to big for his britches.

 

And as for BMac. 

I hope he's as good as we're all hoping.  Lord knows we could use him.  I'm not down talking him, I'm just saying lets see how the hitters handle him during the season.

 

Here's what I was seeing-

PLAYER SALARY (US$)

1. Jermaine Dye 11,666,667

2. Jose Contreras 9,000,000

3. Paul Konerko 8,000,000

4. Freddy Garcia 6,875,000

5. Frank Thomas 6,000,000

 

etc....

 

My bad.

[SouthSideScraper]

And the damn thing says in bright bold letters...2004 salaries.

 

Duh.

 

Well, I still think Paulie is worth 9 million for three years.

[southsider2k5]

Just a question, do you ever use anything besides a bunch of jumbled up stats?

 

You forgot "illogical"

[Heads22]

i consider this Honels make or break year in terms of being a top prospect once again.  While he didnt look 2 good his last outing he pitched pretty well his outing b4 that and this is his first time really pitching for like a year so i give him a break.

 

So if he can show that he is again the same pitcher he once was as the season progresses i still got a lot of hope in him.

as far as predicting goes here is my take

 

2006:

1B: Ross Gload(Konerko costs 2 much money for what he gives us, also he hurts our offense as much as he helps with his poor ass road stats and with his double plays) If Lyle Overbay is a F/A i wouldnt mind us looking at him good OBP guy.

2B: Iguchi(I have a good feeling about this dude.)

SS: Uribe(will dissapoint in 2005 this be a make or break year kind of for him)

3B: Joe Crede(wont last the whole season, just taking up time for Fields to get some more AB's)

LF:  Aaron Rowand(hope he is a white sox for a long time)

CF: Brian Anderson

RF: Jermaine Dye(1 year left on his contract also stop gap for Sweeney)

C: AJ Pieryznski(he is the man  )

 

SP:Mark Buerhle

SP:Freddy Garcia

SP:Orlando/Contreras(one of these 2 will either be moved to bullpen or traded)

SP:Jon Garland

SP:B-Mac(his time to shine)

 

in 2007: i have no clue but i hope Sweeney will be ready by then.

 

Two things (to start with)

 

Does Pods just evaporate?

I don't see Fields up here next year at all if Crede truly has fixed his problems.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For the obviously intellectually inferior who weighed in with their usual dumbarse comments I suggest you look up the word stat in the dictionary.

It represents an indisputable fact.

 

Now for those who have more gray matter between their ears it's clear that the biggest weakness on this team the past 4 yrs has been performance on the road. It was more important for the Sox to shakeup the team in that regards & I think the additions of AJP & Pods address that. Dye doesn't help with the road that much but you at least can say he's approached an MVP like season before so there is that hope. Signing Dye for 11M/2yr makes him easily tradeable if he should falter or Sweeney or Anderson prove to be a better option.

 

Please explain to me why after 6 yrs I should suddenly believe Koney is going to become a road warrior? Did it ever occur to you that his numbers are greatly inflated by the Cell & that his performance from month to month is more a function of road trips in that month then anything else?

 

The best thing to do with Koney is trade him for an arm better than that of Garland & Contreras. Vazquez fits that bill.

 

As fo BMC the optimism is because of his control. When you demonstrate that kind of control you are way ahead of the pack. It's not likely he'll lose that.

[Chisoxfn]

Vazquez is predicated on the belief that AZ is not going to be in contention in the West & that the trade that was talked so much about with Koney as the centerpiece will resurface in Jun.

Gimme a break, teams don't trade there centerpieces when they are in contention. And your nuts, AZ just spent how much money this offseason to better there club and you think they are gonna be giving it away at the deadline??

 

Its just like trading one of your starting pitchers at the deadline in order to give Bmac a shot. I probably like Bmac more then anyone on the board, but thats stupid. You don't trade pitching and you don't trade centerpieces at the deadline, especially when you'd be inserting a rookie and no matter how talented he is, he'd still be a rookie without any experience just coming into the majors near the trade deadline.

 

I'd go ballistic if the Sox did any of these things. If you add at the deadline, you add pitching, NEVER EVER EVER TRADE IT, and you add these guys by trading prospects or players that aren't too important...ie Olivo last year. He wasn't that important to the Sox, not saying he's not talented. You don't trade your centerpiece like Konerko...no way no shape, no how.

 

This isn't fantasy baseball.

[Chisoxfn]

Playing for a contender usually is enough to change a player's mind.  As I have done in this thread KW can easily sell Vazquez on the future potential of the White Sox.  Koney fans are ignoring his road numbers. They are awful.  He hit 239 on the road last year & his career #'s are not much better.  Add to that the fact he is clearly a 1-dim player & it makes no sense to commit 8-9M/yr over 4 yrs to Koney.  Based on the off-season deals it makes no sense for Koney to accept anything less than a 4-5yr deal.

 

I agree out of loyalty to Koney the Sox should at least offer him a 3yr deal.  Even if they overpay a little on it. 

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb...t=.jsp&c_id=cws

Comparisons to BMC as a RH Marky B or Greg Maddux with more zip.  That kind of stuff makes you want to dream because control pitchers like these guys are often

more durable than the power guys (Wood, Prior).

 

Likewise they refer to Tracey & Honel as being not too far behind either.

 

I'm really optimistic by what I'm hearing from Marte.  I think he's poised to dominate RH's again (if he keeps from beaning them )  He's certainly taken Cooper's advice to heart.

 

Honel = Garbage at this point. He is not a prospect until he proves himself 100% over the long haul. I've been saying this for a long time and I've seen the guy pitch on multiple ocassions. Until that happens I'll stick to my assesment. I don't mean to call him garbage because his knuckle curve is ridiculous, but he's not even one of there top prospects.

 

And Trace, as much as I like the guy, still has a lot of things he has to work out. No one in the Sox system is anywhere close to Brandon McCarthy and I mean no one.

 

And don't tell me road split this, etc. Konerko has put up good numbers every year with the Sox with exception to two years ago where he was awful. He's done it when the Cell (well it was Comiskey then) wasn't a hitters park. Last year he was fantastic and this year I expect the same and hope to get the same.

 

Realistically I prefer him in the 5 hole but him and the Sox get along and he's one of the faces. Once again, YOU DON"T TRADE YOUR CENTERPIECES AT THE DEADLINE. Like it or not Konerko is the main run producer of this offense and will be until Frank PROVES he's the #1 guy. Until then its PK and you don't trade these type of guys at the deadline to IMPROVE your shots at the playoff.

 

I don't care what you think, drill that or write it down because that type of stuff doesn't happen. Only way it does is if your name is Nomar and your an injury riddled cancer. Thats the 1 exception.

[JUGGERNAUT]

It seems fitting since there are Koney fans weighing in to post his complete R stats here:

 

02-04 R 263/323/440/763

99-01 R 284/340/465/805

 

He's not a bum on the road, but he's a far cry from the Koney that hits @ the Cell. Definitely better than Crede on the road.

 

01 R 266/333/461/794

00 R 305/367/500/867

99 R 264/323/429/752

04 R 239/301/407/708

03 R 223/286/384/670

02 R 318/374/516/890

01 R 266/333/461/794

00 R 305/367/500/867

99 R 264/323/429/752

98 R 203/260/319/579 - 138 AB

[Chisoxfn]

It seems fitting since there are Koney fans weighing in to post his complete R stats here:

 

02-04 R 263/323/440/763

99-01 R 284/340/465/805

 

He's not a bum on the road, but he's a far cry from the Koney that hits @ the Cell.  Definitely better than Crede on the road.

 

01 R 266/333/461/794

00 R 305/367/500/867

99 R 264/323/429/752

04 R 239/301/407/708

03 R 223/286/384/670

02 R 318/374/516/890

01 R 266/333/461/794

00 R 305/367/500/867

99 R 264/323/429/752

98 R 203/260/319/579 - 138 AB

 

One question..who gives a crap about these stats. What were his season stats...oh thats right, last year he was one of the best 1st baseman in baseball. Nuff said.

 

And don't talk about the cell inflating his stats, maybe it did last year, but prior to that it was statistically (and I know you love statistics) not an extreme hitters park if anywhat a hitters park.

[JUGGERNAUT]

YOU DON'T TRADE YOUR CENTERPIECE BEFORE THE DEADLINE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think if we have learned anything over KW's tenure it's that he will trade anybody if he thinks he can improve the team. It all comes down to what KW thinks we'll need to get past the Twins in the 2nd 1/2. If he thinks Vazquez at the cost of Koney will do more good than harm he'll do that trade.

 

Jason, this team has not had a better than 500 road record since 2000. It's senseless to ignore that fact & how it has done in the Sox the past 4 yrs. I took another look at Koney's road stats & they are better than his 04 #'s but again if your #4 hitter only puts up a 750OPS #'s on the road your team's at a disadvantage.

 

Putting that aside do you think Koney is going to sign for anything less than 5 yrs & if you were KW would you sign him to that? Again we can't ignore the $ Glaus, Beltre, & Drew got this off-season.

 

I think it would be a mistake to commit 40M/5 yr to Koney.

[Chisoxfn]

I think if we have learned anything over KW's tenure it's that he will trade anybody if he thinks he can improve the team.  It all comes down to what KW thinks we'll need to get past the Twins in the 2nd 1/2.  If he thinks Vazquez at the cost of Koney will do more good than harm he'll do that trade. 

 

Jason, this team has not had a better than 500 road record since 2000.  It's senseless to ignore that fact & how it has done in the Sox the past 4 yrs.  I took another look at Koney's road stats & they are better than his 04 #'s but again if your #4 hitter only puts up a 750OPS #'s on the road your team's at a disadvantage.

 

Putting that aside do you think Koney is going to sign for anything less than 5 yrs & if you were KW would you sign him to that? Again we can't ignore the $ Glaus, Beltre, & Drew got this off-season. 

 

I think it would be a mistake to commit 40M/5 yr to Koney.

Those teams didn't have a 5th starter. So instead you suggest dealing one of the Sox starters and putting Bmac in right for the stretch run???

 

There is only one thing that beat the Sox the past few years and it was there pitching and themselves. It had nothing to do with Paulie.

 

Think about it, good teams win on the road because they have pitching and a bullpen and the Sox didn't have that the past few years. This year they may just have it. I know they got a darn good bullpen, we'll see how El Duque, Contreras and JG do.

 

And no, Kenny isn't stupid. If they are in this he'd deal prospects, he wouldn't deal Konerko. You don't improve your team trading Konerko for Vazquez. Its pretty much a wash.

[jackie hayes]

Please explain to me why after 6 yrs I should suddenly believe Koney is going to become a road warrior?

Oh exalted one, great poobah, your intellectual inferior meekly seeks your wisdom:

PK apparently did not suck it up on the road some years. Maybe you missed these while visiting the home planet?

2000 .305/.367/.500

2001 .266/.333/.461

2002 .318/.374/.516

[JUGGERNAUT]

Those teams didn't have a 5th starter.  So instead you suggest dealing one of the Sox starters and putting Bmac in right for the stretch run???

 

There is only one thing that beat the Sox the past few years and it was there pitching and themselves.  It had nothing to do with Paulie. 

 

Think about it, good teams win on the road because they have pitching and a bullpen and the Sox didn't have that the past few years.  This year they may just have it.  I know they got a darn good bullpen, we'll see how El Duque, Contreras and JG do. 

 

And no, Kenny isn't stupid.  If they are in this he'd deal prospects, he wouldn't deal Konerko.  You don't improve your team trading Konerko for Vazquez.  Its pretty much a wash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

KW has to think of 06, & 07 when he makes moves for 05. Do I think this team would have a better shot at winning the division & a WS with a rotation of

Mark, Freddy, Vazquez, Hernandez, BMC? You bet. Do I think the Cell has been a hitter's park for the past 5 yrs? You bet. The data is simply to overwhelming to ignore.

 

2000-2004: losses at home (30-35), avg 33.

2001-2004: losses on road (44-47), avg 45. 2000 32.

 

Is it just weakness in pitching & D? Again look at the team road stats.

2000 R 1.51WHIP 4.66ERA

2001 R 1.39WHIP 4.63ERA

2002 R 1.41WHIP 4.85ERA

2003 R 1.36WHIP 4.43ERA

2004 R 1.41WHIP 4.73ERA

 

Now take a look at the team road offense:

2000 R 279/343/441/784

2001 R 265/325/443/768

2002 R 257/325/414/739

2003 R 263/328/421/750

2004 R 260/321/424/745

 

2000 is substantially better than the rest but more important it exceeds

what the opponents did against the Sox. It's the only time that happened in the past 5 yrs.

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlbhist/teams/...Type=2&type=reg Away

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlbhist/teams/...Type=2&type=reg Home

 

Moneyball: 2000 343OBP on road, 369OBP at home vs 2004 321OBP on road, 344OBP at home

Edited March 15, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[JUGGERNAUT]

Oh exalted one, great poobah, your intellectual inferior meekly seeks your wisdom:

PK apparently did not suck it up on the road some years.  Maybe you missed these while visiting the home planet?

2000 .305/.367/.500

2001 .266/.333/.461

2002 .318/.374/.516

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I posted every yr of his career. See above.

 

99-01 R 284/340/465/805

02-04 R 263/323/440/763

 

#4 hitter w a career avg of about 780OPS on the road. Better than avg but not worth the 45M/5 yr deal he's likely to get elsewhere.

[jackie hayes]

I posted every yr of his career.  See above.

 

99-01 R 284/340/465/805

02-04 R 263/323/440/763

 

#4 hitter w a career avg of about 780OPS on the road.  Better than avg but not worth the 45M/5 yr deal he's likely to get elsewhere.

I know, after my comment posted I saw the whole discussion you had w/ Jason. I don't think I took that long to post, I don't know how I missed that.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Field 07:

Fields at 3B, Uribe/? at SS, Igs/? at 2B, Gload/? 1B, AJP at C, ARow at CF, Pods/Sweeney at LF, Anderson/Sweeney at RF

 

The ? represent an upgrade over the player at the position.

 

Rowand offers too much in speed, glove, & bat to lose him. So if Pods is worth keeping around (arbit yr for him) then Sweeney/Anderson will vie for the remaining OF spot. The other might be used as the 4th OF on the bench or as trade bait.

 

The best part of 07 is that the rotation is signed sealed & delivered.

Mark, Freddy, Vazquez, BMC, Hernandez/?

 

Hernandez will be two yrs older but he's not a fastball pitcher so he might still be very effective as a 5th. If not Hernandez then an upgrade. Possibly Barnett. Again they should have at least 40M to spend on the rotation so they should be able to get the best 5th starter in the ALC.

 

Assuming Thomas at DH this team is capable of 220HR.

[aboz56]

For the obviously intellectually inferior who weighed in with their usual dumbarse comments I suggest you look up the word stat in the dictionary.

It represents an indisputable fact. 

 

Now for those who have more gray matter between their ears it's clear that the biggest weakness on this team the past 4 yrs has been performance on the road. 

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on this board, period, especially coming from you.

 

 

Now, as you were, babbling aimlessly with no real point.

[quickman]

What a strange thread, we are half way through spring training and we are talking about the future years. If this thread started three years ago honel would be in there, Munoz, Almonte, Ring, Borchard, olivo. This is just silly, as many of you know I am very disheartened with our Minor league system. i would say 90% never make it, then there are injuries and trades. How about being excited about this year. lets win this year, if you see any of these minor leaguers, BMAC or Diaz it means we are in trouble. Win now, screw later.

[aboz56]

What a strange thread, we are half way through spring training and we are talking about the future years. If this thread started three years ago honel would be in there, Munoz, Almonte, Ring, Borchard, olivo. This is just silly, as  many of you know I am very disheartened with our Minor league system. i would say 90% never make it, then there are injuries and trades. How about being excited about this year. lets win this year, if you see any of these minor leaguers, BMAC or Diaz it means we are in trouble. Win now, screw later.

I agree 100%, the Jugghead wants to trade Konerko for Vazquez at the all-star break...How can you even begin to talk about trading at the break when the season hasn't started?

 

He also wants to trade a proven starter in order to get B-Mac into the rotation....Note to all: Rushing young pitching prospects based on their spring training success is not a good idea, especially given the track record of this organization.

 

Let the season play out without trading our best player before the season even begins.

[YASNY]

I believe southsider2K5 summed up this thread very early, with the word "illogical".

[JUGGERNAUT]

I agree 100%, the Jugghead wants to trade Konerko for Vazquez at the all-star break...How can you even begin to talk about trading at the break when the season hasn't started?

 

He also wants to trade a proven starter in order to get B-Mac into the rotation

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did you bother to even read the thread? I said near the break. BMAC still has something to prove in AAA & the Sox need for Garland/Contreras to at least improve their trade value. Mid June is a better target.

 

The thread was predicated on BMAC's dominance in ST in terms of throwing strikes & not giving up runs in HR haven AZ parks. Both are very rare things to happen. I don't recall any member of the Sox or the Cub in recent yrs doing what BMAC is doing in ST.

 

Now if you want to ignore that (ignorance seems to fit some of you quite well) that's your option to do so. But I on the otherhand look at such a rare thing & start thinking maybe this is our time. Maybe the White Sox have finally caught some good luck & are looking at the makings of a bonified ace. You don't make an ace, they make themselves. Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Harden, Maddux & yes Marky B all proved they had ace potential in their first year. Prior proved it as well. He's at best right now an ace in the making in the mold of Pedro. Don't expect 30+ starts from him any year.

 

So I don't buy into the philosophy that you have to wait around with aces in the making. If BMAC is getting it done in Charlotte by mid June he should be added to the rotation. The Twins were in a similar situation with Santana. He deserved to be in the rotation but they held him back. If not for injuries to starters they might have lost it that year in doing so. They also might have lost Santana in that process. Luck shined on them. It seems to be shinning on the ChiSox. You have to take advantage of it.

 

As for Koney I've crunched the numbers for you on many occasions. He's a great player at the Cell (900OPS) & an above average at best player on the road (780OPS). That's not worth 45M/5yr (what he's expected to sign for elsewhere). Better to get Vazquez for him now then a pick later. I'm assuming if the ChiSox don't sign him that they will offer him arbitration & at least get a comp pick when he leaves. That's what makes the most sense.

 

Thomas on the hand when healthy has proven to be a 1000OPS player at the Cell & a 900OPS player on the road. The choice is obvious.

Edited March 16, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[jackie hayes]

Now if you want to ignore that (ignorance seems to fit some of you quite well)

I thought you were kidding w/ that "intellectual inferiors" crap before, now I'm not so sure. Don't be a jerk, just b/c your word count per post is so high doesn't mean you have any more to say.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For the record I was in favor of trading for Vazquez at the expense of Koney in the off-season. I felt Garland + Koney for Vazquez was a reasonable price with the $ coming from the NYY for Vazquez.

 

It was just plain stupid to trade CLee over Koney. Look at the difference in their OBP both at home & on the road over the years. Koney is not a moneyball player.

 

Since the D'Backs never upgraded 1B I believe that option is still out there.

Jun will feature some major home stands that will greatly boost Koney's value for teams that need his bat. The D'Backs are clearly one of those teams & considering the price they paid for Green & Glaus 45M/5yr is probably what they'd agree upon with Koney.

 

Locking Vazquez up for 3 yrs would solidify the rotation to make a major WS run.

 

The schedule tips the scales to the Cell in the first 3 months. That should boost Koney's stock & keep Garland's & Contreras about the same. The boost in Koney's stock should allow KW to use the lessor of the two (Jon, or Jose) to complete the trade.