southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 09:43 AM) Intersting the people here who called Maggs a selfish, greedy, MF for becoming a free agent and NOT showing any LOYALTY. Suddenly don't have a problem with dumping Frank if it means helping the team. LOL. You guys kill me. Who said they have no problem with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 09:47 AM) Who said they have no problem with it? I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 09:25 AM) Fair enough. I hope you're right about Frank coming back. We've seen in the papers that KW is ready to cut ties w/ Frank at season's end to save $6.5 mil, which would be a colossal misjudgement if he comes back from the injury and plays this year like he did when healthy in 2004. I'm encouraged to hear that Reinsdorf would make a push for Hurt -- even if it is mostly speculation. Doesn't matter what Kenny wants in regards to Frank. As long as Frank and Jerry are on good terms Frank will be in a Sox uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 03:57 PM) Doesn't matter what Kenny wants in regards to Frank. As long as Frank and Jerry are on good terms Frank will be in a Sox uniform. Don't know if I agree with the method, but I love the result! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 09:55 AM) I did. I am not sure where you are going but.... Unless Frank retires as a White Sox of his own free will, this place will go up in flames. It will be UGLY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:43 AM) Intersting the people here who called Maggs a selfish, greedy, MF for becoming a free agent and NOT showing any LOYALTY. Suddenly don't have a problem with dumping Frank if it means helping the team. LOL. You guys kill me. I may have shared some of those sentiments with Maggs, but I don't think it'll ever be that way with Frank. Frank is the White Sox IMO for what he's done here. While Maggs had good numbers while he was in Chicago, I just never saw him meaning to this franchise, what Frank has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Past tense. Do you think 2006 Frank will be better than 2006 Paul. That is the question. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In terms of the de-facto standard (OPS) a healthy Thomas will have a better year than Koney in 2006. More importantly a healthy Thomas will have a more consistent OPS month to month than Koney. You can ignore the numbers only so far in your love for Koney. Plus there are the intangibles. Koney can't play DH. Have you even looked at his #'s as a DH? He's horrible. It's not easy to be a highly productive DH in this league yr after yr. If Koney had suffered Frank's injuries he's probably done. We saw how quickly his numbers dropped with minor injuries. Frank has proven the ability to come back & post big numbers time & again. The Sox will have cheaper & more effective options available to fill 1B. The last thing you want is to give up one of the best DH's the game has ever seen when you play in the AL. The bottom line is this. The best eye on the team is Frank. That's clearly obvious in his OBP year after year. No one on the team or in the organization is any where close to Frank in that regards. Moneyball dictates you retain Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 09:58 AM) I am not sure where you are going but.... Unless Frank retires as a White Sox of his own free will, this place will go up in flames. It will be UGLY. Even if it means giving up Konerko? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 So I guess that means you are guarenteeing he won't have his 3rd season ending injury in 6 years? And he won't have the huge slump from his numbers as he recovers from injury as he has historically? You can ignore the reality only so far in your love for Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:11 AM) Even if it means giving up Konerko? Not a doubt about it. People like Pauly, people LOVE Frank. BIG difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 More intangibles. Frank remains one of the best cost vs performance players among vets in the game today. Koney is not even in the top 30 in that category. Frank has demonstrated a willingness to accept less $ to stay with the ChiSox. Twice. Once at the start of his last contract & again when it came time to renew. BAL was offering more $'s vs the remaining value of the contract. That clearly demonstrates that Thomas is willing to cut the ChiSox a discount to remain with the team. It means something to him to possibly be the last HOFer to have the honor of saying he played with 1 team his whole career. It may never happen again. How do you think JR would feel on the day Thomas becomes a HOFer when Thomas says how proud he was to finish to have devoted his years to the ChiSox? Some things are more important than $. This is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:12 AM) So I guess that means you are guarenteeing he won't have his 3rd season ending injury in 6 years? And he won't have the huge slump from his numbers as he recovers from injury as he has historically? You can ignore the reality only so far in your love for Frank. Read the thread title. This is about Giambi signing as a way to get Frank to end his career in a Sox uniform. Couple thoughts: Fans will say Frank is a bum if he turns down a Sox offer, no matter how small. They will turn on him if he turns down $2mil to accept $4mil from someone else. Fans demand loyalty from the players while not demanding the owners show any. JR has shown a willingness to allow players, no matter how "special" to leave if it doesn't fit with current team plans. Signing Giambi will not have any effect on Frank's decision. I have been very consistent that every player and every team has to negotiate in their best interest. Negotiate hard, accept the deal that is best for you, and later, suck it up and live with those terms. If that means Frank ends his career as a pitch hitter for the Dodgers, then so be it. If that means the Sox decide that Frank no longer fits in their plans, so be it. My love for Frank? In a nut shell. If Frank was half the leader and club house guy as he is a player, the Sox would have at least another post season appearance at at least one playoff series win. I think he is awful as a leader, moody, and one of the reasons our attendance is down, while the Cubs are up. Sammy blows kisses, hops, and "hugs" the fans. Frank sulks, signs contracts he later regrets, and is inconsistent with the greatest source of advertising to the club, the reporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Your first thought is wrong, frankly. (pun intended) People do not care why Frank leaves. If the Sox lowball him, and he goes elsewhere, Sox fans will be pissed at JR and company. Sox fans DO demand loyalty from their ownership, but are smart enough to differenciate situations and not paint with the same broad brush. We know Fisk got screwed, we know Carlos Lee was a salary dump, we know Ventura got lowballed, and we know that you don't pay a guy who decieves you at every turn $14 million unless you know he can be healthy. Sox fans have made their opinions known at every turn. Attendance plummetted after they thought JR was a part of the strike of 94, it dropped again after the White Flag trades, and it will drop if Frank leaves on bad terms. People will cancel season tickets, mark my words. And be honest with me. In the business world, are you more likely to do business with someone who scratches your back. You don't think by the Sox helping out Tellum, that come Frank's contract time, Tellum might be a little more inclined to say "Hey big guy, why don't you take that offer from the Sox" even if it isn't the best one? Tellum knows he can work with this organization, and something like that can help when you are trying to make a decesion between two offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 (edited) Tellum would be violating his duties as FRANK'S Agent if he does that. Are you saying that Tellum should do that? Define lowball for Frank? I'll bet we see numbers from $500,000 to $6 million that people consider "low ball" Edited March 16, 2005 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:38 AM) Tellum would be violating his duties as FRANK'S Agent if he does that. Are you saying that Tellum should do that? How is that violating his duties? Borass does that all of the time. He took less realized money from the Mets for Beltran instead of going to Houston. Does that mean we can get Scotty disagented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:40 AM) How is that violating his duties? Borass does that all of the time. He took less realized money from the Mets for Beltran instead of going to Houston. Does that mean we can get Scotty disagented? Because in your scenario he's telling Frank to take less because the Sox signed Giambi. Glad to see you are now a Borass fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:42 AM) Because in your scenario he's telling Frank to take less because the Sox signed Giambi. Glad to see you are now a Borass fan. Oh heck no, but as long as we can get this guy out, I am all for it. I am surprised. As someone in the business world, I figured you'd understand the "its not what you know" part of sports business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 How about this one JR is thinking, "I'm going to offer Frank more because Tellum delivered Giambi to us and I like working with him" You know scratching the back and all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:46 AM) Oh heck no, but as long as we can get this guy out, I am all for it. I am surprised. As someone in the business world, I figured you'd understand the "its not what you know" part of sports business. I know the system works when people uphold their moral and legal obligations. Tellum cannot be selling one client short to advance another. Yes, this does signal and confirm the excellent working relationship between both parties. If Frank has to question if his agent is looking out for Frank, or paying back a favor to the club, the system doesn't work. Come on SS, you know that's correct. Let's consider this for a moment. IIRC Frank on more than one occasion has expressed frustration with his contracts. Some fans would even go so far as to call him a cry baby and whiner. I wonder what a different agent, and different contracts, would have done for Frank's attitude, and by extension, his performance on the field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 I know the system works when people uphold their moral and legal obligations. Tellum cannot be selling one client short to advance another. Yes, this does signal and confirm the excellent working relationship between both parties. If Frank has to question if his agent is looking out for Frank, or paying back a favor to the club, the system doesn't work. Come on SS, you know that's correct. Let's consider this for a moment. IIRC Frank on more than one occasion has expressed frustration with his contracts. Some fans would even go so far as to call him a cry baby and whiner. I wonder what a different agent, and different contracts, would have done for Frank's attitude, and by extension, his performance on the field? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think they will work out an extension that keeps Frank relatively happy, gives the White Sox flexibility, and keeps a Sox icon in a Sox uniform for the rest of his career. Reinsdorf and Frank Thomas have a close relationship by all accounts, a relationship that transcends business. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 (edited) As far as Frank vs. Pauly: So what if he can't play the field anymore? People always use that in an argument against Frank, I don't see it. Is Konerko by any means a defensive star in the field? No. Is he terrible? No. He's right in the middle, meaning I don't think he's hurting us defensively, but he's not in the upper-tier as far as defensive 1st-basemen (IMHO). One difference between Konerko and Thomas, is that I think Thomas would sign for less, after his option year. I know Konerko has been saying all the right things, and if he's true to it -- than that's just great, and there's no discussion needed. But he might also see guys like Sexson and Glaus and Delgado, getting upwards of ten million dollars a year. All I'm saying is, if Konerko starts demanding that, you can't give that to him. It'd hamper this team way, way too much. EDIT: And, FWIW, Thomas still had a .432 road OBP. He dips in power, but he's still a force at the plate -- the same can't be said for Konerko... (on the road) Edited March 16, 2005 by CWSGuy406 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 10:52 AM) I know the system works when people uphold their moral and legal obligations. Tellum cannot be selling one client short to advance another. Yes, this does signal and confirm the excellent working relationship between both parties. If Frank has to question if his agent is looking out for Frank, or paying back a favor to the club, the system doesn't work. Come on SS, you know that's correct. Let's consider this for a moment. IIRC Frank on more than one occasion has expressed frustration with his contracts. Some fans would even go so far as to call him a cry baby and whiner. I wonder what a different agent, and different contracts, would have done for Frank's attitude, and by extension, his performance on the field? Right, wrong or indifferent, it happens. Look around the league and you will see that certian teams have clumps of players from certian agents. Do you really think that is because they went out and asked all 30 teams for the best offer, and it just happened that everytime it was the same team who made the highest bid? And I honestly believe if Frank was a greedy SOB he would have left Chicago a long time ago. There was plenty of more money out there are various times, and I have no doubt that if he is a FA after 2005 someone will offer him more money than the Sox again. I also believe unless the Sox offer is a complete joke, Frank will take it, and Tellum will tell him it is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 11:31 AM) Right, wrong or indifferent, it happens. Look around the league and you will see that certian teams have clumps of players from certian agents. Do you really think that is because they went out and asked all 30 teams for the best offer, and it just happened that everytime it was the same team who made the highest bid? And I honestly believe if Frank was a greedy SOB he would have left Chicago a long time ago. There was plenty of more money out there are various times, and I have no doubt that if he is a FA after 2005 someone will offer him more money than the Sox again. I also believe unless the Sox offer is a complete joke, Frank will take it, and Tellum will tell him it is a good idea. It does happen that a great working relationship allows the team and agent to negotiate fair contracts and players cluster. Boras' relationship with the Tigers greatly helped Maggs. If that is your new position, I agree. If you are claiming that Tellum should or would tell Frank to sign for less with the Sox *because* the Sox signed Giambi, I still disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 (edited) I just want to add that Frank & JR have always shared a special relationship. That is best defined by the contracts. If I'm not mistaken every Frank contract has been between JR & Frank directly & not by the GM like almost all other contracts. The last deal was clearly Frank & JR. The Giambi siging promotes good vibes between Tellum & the ChiSox. That's always better than bad ones. If you think this little stuff doesn't matter guess again. I recently read an article on perks meaning more than the cash. Did you know that Beltran was willing to sign a multi-year deal with KC before he became a FA? The bone of contention: a machine with a cost under 1M to own & operate that would fire balls at Beltran at speeds close to 150MPH. Why did Johnson accept a trade to the NYY's? Because they were able to guarantee him his seats at both D'Backs & Suns games when he retires. Something that was structured in the earlier deal when Coangelo operated both. It can be said that DH is the most important bat in the lineup for the AL. Just look at the production the BoSox got from the position in their WS run. You have to have a guy that can produce consistently from that position month after month to be a Series contender. This again is where the Twins have had good luck in the production they've gotten from that spot. Let's not forget all the comments that were said by players in the off-season. Frank's presence in the lineup can not be measured by numbers. Though I don't really believe it & I can probably prove it can be the point is that he makes everyone else in the lineup better when he's in there. They see better pitches, they see which pitches Frank is laying off of, & they face pitchers with greater stress on them. All intangible things that increase the odds of a hit for the rest in the lineup. All that being said the Sox having greater bargaining strength this time around. In the past 4 yrs, Thomas has played in about 300G w 1400AB. In comparison Ortiz has played in about 500G w 1750AB. That means lower base & higher incentives for Thomas. Let's not forget that Thomas went from making 10M/yr to a base of 6M/yr coming off an injuried year. I can easily see the next contract being structured at a base of 6M again but with greater & more attainable incentives (games played, top 10 in avg, top 10 in rbi, top 10 in OPS, mvp, silver slugger, etc.). And like the last I can see player & team options each yr to continuance of the contract. A new Koney contract is not going to provide the Sox that kind of flexibility because he is a younger player. What Koney would provide the Sox is a waiver on no-trade. Whether it's in his contract or not I don't ever see Koney preventing the Sox from trading him. In terms of risk, upside & costs Thomas is the better buy. Edited March 16, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Mar 16, 2005 -> 11:42 AM) It does happen that a great working relationship allows the team and agent to negotiate fair contracts and players cluster. Boras' relationship with the Tigers greatly helped Maggs. If that is your new position, I agree. If you are claiming that Tellum should or would tell Frank to sign for less with the Sox *because* the Sox signed Giambi, I still disagree. *because* would be a new position for me. Read my words closely at the beginning. something like that can help That is way different than the words you are putting in my mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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