Guest JimH Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Several things to consider: At present, the Sox have great catching depth. Trading Davis, which is certainly a possibility, lessens depth at a key position. Pierzynski is a durable player but if he goes down the Sox are in deep s*** if they move Davis. Next, it's doubtful the Sox weaken this roster, they want to win now. Davis is a useful player because the staff values his receiving abilities. Trading Davis for a prospect, while possible, doesn't seem to make sense. What may make sense is moving Davis for another guy with upside who can give you depth at other positions ... think Cintron. Either way, the Sox are in the catbird seat in this situation. Solid catchers are in demand and Williams would want a key piece if he were to move Davis. Having said all this, Widger has looked very solid. He calls a good game from what I've seen thus far and he has veteran smarts at the plate. Lastly, it's a good idea to bring in several catchers to camp. There are a lot of innings to be caught in Arizona and there's no use burning guys out with all these spring training games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Come on, I like Jaime Burke and he does some nice things. He is a third catcher and good option if someone gets hurt, as is Chris Widger. Davis is 5 years younger and has appeared in over 400 more games. Sure Burke fits the OBP mode, mind you he has yet to hit a mjor league home run, but I think you are risking a-lot by getting rid of Davis. There is a reason Burke is 33 and had no relative ML experience before last season. This is also the reason he is willing to do whatever it takes to make the big league club. His defense is nowhere near good enough to keep him around for an other position then catcher. They tried this with Gload in the outfield, athleticism can make up for shortcomings on defense and neither Burke or Gload have this. I think moving Davis would really hurt this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Come on, I like Jaime Burke and he does some nice things. He is a third catcher and good option if someone gets hurt, as is Chris Widger. Davis is 5 years younger and has appeared in over 400 more games. Sure Burke fits the OBP mode, mind you he has yet to hit a mjor league home run, but I think you are risking a-lot by getting rid of Davis. There is a reason Burke is 33 and had no relative ML experience before last season. This is also the reason he is willing to do whatever it takes to make the big league club. His defense is nowhere near good enough to keep him around for an other position then catcher. They tried this with Gload in the outfield, athleticism can make up for shortcomings on defense and neither Burke or Gload have this. I think moving Davis would really hurt this team. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you said it a lot better than I did. One caveat ... it would all depend on what the Sox would get back (in a trade). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 QUOTE(JimH @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 09:36 AM) I think you said it a lot better than I did. One caveat ... it would all depend on what the Sox would get back (in a trade). Right, now put yourself in another teams place. If Ben Davis were still with the Mariners and we neded a back-up catcher, would you trade a viable and productive major league entity (Adkins, Cotts, Harris) for a $1M back-up or for Jaime Burke (B level prospetcs can be given for him.) A team that is not really going to go anywhere (Pirates, Brewers, Royals, Orioles,) are not going to look at Davis they will look at Burke or Widger as a back-up. Teams that will take on Davis are not going to deem him worthy enough to give up ML productive talent. Is Boston going to take on the salary and give up a player they may need during the season. I think Widger and Burke may go for a minor league mid-tier guy with some upside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 If you put it in perspective it makes sense. Before AJP: Davis & Burke platooning at C - that was the plan After AJP: AJ the starter, Davis the backup, Burke 3rd C Davis becomes the odd man out. He's not a major upgrade D over Burke & provides next to nothing bat wise off the bench. Who would want him? Before asking that take a look at the depth chart of C's around the league. Look at how many < 700OPS C's are playing. As a switch hitter with good speed Davis might actually represent an upgrade to some teams. I'd say we'd be trying to get a good D player to backup Crede at 3B. That remains our weakness & there's a risk of burning Uribe out if you burden him with those additional AB's, games, & responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 QUOTE(Jabroni @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 05:05 AM) Remember, all it takes for a team to be interested in a guy is a hot spring, which Davis is currently having. Good GM's won't give a damn about how well a guy is doing in Spring Training. There's no correlation between ST performance and ML performance. Guys get hot, others are cold -- doesn't mean one is better/worse than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 QUOTE(HSC's Biggest Fan @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 03:29 PM) Come on, I like Jaime Burke and he does some nice things. He is a third catcher and good option if someone gets hurt, as is Chris Widger. Davis is 5 years younger and has appeared in over 400 more games. Sure Burke fits the OBP mode, mind you he has yet to hit a mjor league home run, but I think you are risking a-lot by getting rid of Davis. There is a reason Burke is 33 and had no relative ML experience before last season. This is also the reason he is willing to do whatever it takes to make the big league club. His defense is nowhere near good enough to keep him around for an other position then catcher. They tried this with Gload in the outfield, athleticism can make up for shortcomings on defense and neither Burke or Gload have this. I think moving Davis would really hurt this team. What has Davis ever done -- besides being a first round pick -- that makes you think he'll amount to anything more than a backup? Beck said it well -- he can't hit lefties, and we already have a starting catcher who hits righties well. Against tough lefties, I'd much rather throw Burke out behind the plate than Davis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 01:44 PM) What has Davis ever done -- besides being a first round pick -- that makes you think he'll amount to anything more than a backup? Beck said it well -- he can't hit lefties, and we already have a starting catcher who hits righties well. Against tough lefties, I'd much rather throw Burke out behind the plate than Davis... The guy has played in 57 games and is 33 years old, do you risk him being the starter. I don't think he is all that good defensivly on top of it. Throw potential out the window. I want a guy that has almost 500 games experience and is 28 over a guy that has been in 57 games and is 33. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 QUOTE(HSC's Biggest Fan @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 01:59 PM) The guy has played in 57 games and is 33 years old, do you risk him being the starter. I don't think he is all that good defensivly on top of it. Throw potential out the window. I want a guy that has almost 500 games experience and is 28 over a guy that has been in 57 games and is 33. Total agreement here. I don't care what his career batting average is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 AJP has not proven to be injury prone to where "risking" Burke being the starter is a big concern. Matchups are more important in the ALC which features some of the very best LHers in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 I think the overwhelming amount of catchers they brought in with 2 signed to 7 digit contracts speaks for itself...probably something about how they do not want 1 of those 2. Minnesota seemed to prove it best last year...you do NOT need a catcher who hits .220 to win. Blanco hit like .207 last year, playing 100 or so games, and they won the division running away. However, if the catcher is not producing at the plate, like Blanco didn't, he has to be very solid defensively, both with the glove and his arm, along with calling a decent game(and his CERA of 4.25, while not great, is pretty solid...considering Davis's last year was 5.21 overall(and 5.15 with us)). That's what I think they are looking at. I think that's obvious. Now, whether they go that route by signing Widger and Burke to minor league deals and having Davis and AJP be the combo, or have it be Davis-AJP-Burke at the MLB level and Widger in AAA, or have one of them traded...I am unsure at this point. Probably where the results come from. I would watch out for LA...Ross-Mayne, or whatever they have, is not good, period. I could see Davis ending up in LA for a high ceiling type prospect...similar to the prospect they gave up in the Milton Bradley trade last year, though perhaps not nearly that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 QUOTE(HSC's Biggest Fan @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 07:59 PM) The guy has played in 57 games and is 33 years old, do you risk him being the starter. I don't think he is all that good defensivly on top of it. Throw potential out the window. I want a guy that has almost 500 games experience and is 28 over a guy that has been in 57 games and is 33. Ah -- I misunderstood you. Correct -- Burke isn't a good starter, but neither is Davis -- and you value Davis' experience more than I do. I personally trust Pierzynski's durability, and I don't think he'll be out for a long enough time to warrant grabbing another starting catcher. I just think as backups, Burke >>> Davis. My bad, I thought you were talking about as a backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Is there any stat lamer than CERA? Davis caught Contreras and the 5th starter garbage. Blanco caught Santana and Radke. 'Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 AJP has not proven to be injury prone to where "risking" Burke being the starter is a big concern. Matchups are more important in the ALC which features some of the very best LHers in the majors. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> For the amount of time the backup catcher will be in vs. certain lefthanders, it isn't even worth considering. All the behind the scenes stuff is infinitely more important, i.e. how much the pitchers like throwing to a guy, how he fits, his defense, and more. AJP has a history of being a work horse but things happen. The more experience they have back there, the better. The key here is Widger. Burke would be a 25th man, not the primary backup catcher. There's a reason why they've got him playing 3B, 1B, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabroni Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 (edited) Latest news... The guy on Comcast Sports Net Chicago mentioned something about Jamie Burke being the probable backup catcher and that there is something in the works as far as an attempt to trade Ben Davis. It could be complete BS but it's interesting nonetheless. We all know that Ozzie loves Burke and he probably likes the fact that he can play some 3B. Edited March 19, 2005 by Jabroni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 03:30 PM) Is there any stat lamer than CERA? Davis caught Contreras and the 5th starter garbage. Blanco caught Santana and Radke. 'Nuff said. Yeah it's pretty retarded. It's extremely dependant on who's on the hill. I had a post just after we signed AJ though where I used it to show that he was good for about a tenth off the ERA in his playcalling...So it can be useful for something.. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=551772 Defense E PB SB CS CERA lgCERA tmERA 2001 10 4 44 21 4.50 4.53 4.51 2002 3 2 45 19 4.10 4.42 4.18 2003 6 5 46 20 4.15 4.62 4.41 2004 1 9 51 15 4.23 4.44 4.28 Finally, here are AJ's Defensive numbers for the past 4 seasons, while he was recieving significant playing time (avg. 1000 innings caught)... CERA is catchers ERA, lgCERA is stolen from BR's lgERA and is an approximation of what a league average pitcher would be expected to in each of AJ's home parks during that season. tmERA is the collective ERA for the team he caught for(non park adjusted) As you can see, AJ's CERA is better than both his team's ERA, and league average(park adjusted) CERA in every year. In short, he's a good catcher -- a good game caller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Latest news... The guy on Comcast Sports Net Chicago mentioned something about Jamie Burke being the probable backup catcher and that there is something in the works as far as an attempt to trade Ben Davis. It could be complete BS but it's interesting nonetheless. We all know that Ozzie loves Burke and he probably likes the fact that he can play some 3B. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bruce Levine was on the 5:30 show tonite, was it him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabroni Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 Bruce Levine was on the 5:30 show tonite, was it him? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not sure. Probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Maybe it's because they like Chris Widger. Who knows. Again, it all depends who you can get in a trade. Every player can be traded, or at least that's the mindset Williams should have. If some other team is desperate for catching and they're willing to pay the price to get Davis ... so be it. But I would hate to see them just discard this guy for a marginal prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabroni Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 (edited) Maybe it's because they like Chris Widger. Who knows. Again, it all depends who you can get in a trade. Every player can be traded, or at least that's the mindset Williams should have. If some other team is desperate for catching and they're willing to pay the price to get Davis ... so be it. But I would hate to see them just discard this guy for a marginal prospect. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Honestly, I think if we trade Davis it's because Ozzie wants to keep Burke on the roster. Ozzie seems to love Burke and the fact that he can play some 3rd base. Widger would be a solid third string catcher at Charlotte incase of injuries. I don't see us getting much more than a mid-level prospect for Ben Davis though. But who knows? A team like the Dodgers could be desperate for a catcher. David Ross and Paul Bako? :puke Edited March 19, 2005 by Jabroni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Honestly, I think if we trade Davis it's because Ozzie wants to keep Burke on the roster. Ozzie seems to love Burke and the fact that he can play some 3rd base. Widger would be a solid third string catcher at Charlotte incase of injuries. I don't see us getting much more than a mid-level prospect for Ben Davis though. But who knows? A team like the Dodgers could be desperate for a catcher. David Ross and Paul Bako? :puke <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Catchers with experience have value, this board underestimates Davis. The fact that he's relatively young factors into his value also. The thing I find hard to believe with this "Burke will be the backup catcher" scenario is this ... the Sox gave themselves roster flexibility when they took Burke off the 40 man. Suppose he makes the team as the 25th guy, then Frank Thomas comes back. Who is easiest to get back through waivers and convince to stay with the organization? Burke. When Thomas comes back, Burke's RH bat off the bench becomes superfluous, an expendable luxury. I still think any of this speculation and/or possibility of shopping Davis by White Sox brass is a result of Widger's performance in camp. Let's ask ourselves this, why would the White Sox set themselves up to be one injury away from having Jamie Burke as the starting catcher? Doesn't make sense to me. What you'd get for Davis (according to this board) in no way makes it worth the risk. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 So quick to forget Jamie Burke is a 33 year old journeyman. To think we have a legit #2 backstop in Burke is a strech. Game five: After chasing a ball into foul territory, Pierzynski crashes his knee into the wall, creating a deep bone bruise and some other problems. Although the White Sox are hopeful AJ will return soon, he could be side-lined for a month and a half. Now, you etch Jamie Freaking Burke in the nine hole for a prolonged period of time. Yuck. I have a much higher confidence level in Ben Davis than Burke. Davis was a #1 selection for a reason. Burke is a 33 year old journeyman for a reason. Davis is getting paid $1M to be a #2 catcher. I have no problem with that. Hell, look at what the idiots from the Northside paid their backup catcher. Four big ones. We have one of the better catching tandums in the AL, why mess it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 We have one of the better catching tandums in the AL, why mess it up? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Puts it nicely into perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabroni Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 (edited) Well, it looks like I was right about the Dodgers being desperate for a catcher. They are going to send Kaz Ishii to the Mets for Jason Phillips... "Dodgers close to sending Ishii to Mets" http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3474474 I would have taken Kaz Ishii for Ben Davis in a second. Phillips isn't much better than Davis. Ishii isn't great but he is a decent lefty 5th starter. Edited March 19, 2005 by Jabroni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Well, it looks like I was right about the Dodgers being desperate for a catcher. They are going to send Kaz Ishii to the Mets for Jason Phillips... "Dodgers close to sending Ishii to Mets" http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3474474 I would have taken Kaz Ishii for Ben Davis in a second. Ishii isn't great but he could be a decent 5th starter. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If it happens it's a deal that makes sense for both teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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