Terri Shaivo thread

[Texsox]

I tried to verify this without success. Does anyone know if a Doctor recommended pulling the feeding tube and the husband agreed, or he ordered the feeding tube removed? My understanding is all the Doctors that have cared for her have recommend keeping her feeding tube in or voiced no opinion. It is the husband who is pushing to end her life.

 

I don't know if this would change anyones opinion, I rather doubt it.

 

Steff, I truly wish she had been explicit in writing down her wishes in this situation. I'm with you in that there is probably no hope and passing peacefully would be a compassionate thing. The way this is happening, there will be three victims. I can't get past allowing her husband (and him specifically) this life or death decision.

[Chisoxfn]

I tried to verify this without success. Does anyone know if a Doctor recommended pulling the feeding tube and the husband agreed, or he ordered the feeding tube removed? My understanding is all the Doctors that have cared for her have recommend keeping her feeding tube in or voiced no opinion. It is the husband who is pushing to end her life.

 

I don't know if this would change anyones opinion, I rather doubt it.

 

Steff, I truly wish she had been explicit in writing down her wishes in this situation. I'm with you in that there is probably no hope and passing peacefully would be a compassionate thing. The way this is happening, there will be three victims. I can't get past allowing her husband (and him specifically) this life or death decision.

Tex thats the way I understand it as well. Personally I think the husband is a royal asshole and I think the parents should be able to get some say in whether the feeding tube is removed. From the sounds of it whenever she would make process in the rehab the husband would basically tell the nurses and doctors to stop and do what he could to prevent her from getting better.

 

No one that cared for a person would do that. This isn't her being a vegetable, this is her with an opportunity of getting better. Nowhere did he ever act as if this is a difficult situation. Instead he'd go into the hospital and ask if she was dead already, etc.

 

The husband = JAGOFF

[Steff]

I don't know why him having another "life" doesn't bother me like it does others.. I guess because if this was me I would not want Jim stopping his life for me if he was told by several doctors that there was no hope and after 7 years I did not improve. I'd want him to have someone to turn to for comfort. You guys are human.. and with that is the need for companionship. I don't think it makes his decision easier.. I think it makes it more tolerable.

[Steff]

The husband = JAGOFF

 

 

 

Two sides to every story Jason...

[Queen Prawn]

I really think that at least some of these things that were "leaked" to the press about the hubby doing thus and such were created (or at least exagerated) to make him look bad. I just have my doubts that he is really that much of a monster.

 

Why would he still be voicing an opinion after how many years if he didn't care? It doesn't make a lot of sense especially since there appears to be nothing to gain financially (unless something was mis-reported).

[Chisoxfn]

Two sides to every story Jason...

Yes, but its his attitude. Put it this way, my wifes dying. I'm sure we've had a talk. If she's a vegetable and had no choice, maybe you pull the plug. But you'd be sad about it and you wouldn't be interferring with the doctors who actually have had some hope that she would recover.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if I have a shot at recovering I don't want the plug pulled on me, if I'm a vegetable for life, I'd probably say pull the plug.

 

But this husband is a royal jag. He did everything possible to hinder her recovery, and was hoping she'd just die. I'd be damn sad and it would be a hard thing. I wouldn't just show up at the hospital going, Is She dead yet.

 

I heard enough after hearing her nurse and some of her doctors talk. I think the other side of the story is that the prick husband did something to cause her condition.

 

If these guy came off as sad saying he just didn't want to see her like this anymore with pain, etc I'd have a better feeling about it. But everything I hear is she has some semblance of where she is and smiles and kind of understands whats going on. Plus they think there is a shot she could recover. Not to mention the husband did all he could to interfere with the recovery.

 

And just think, this is coming from me, the person who thought Scott Peterson should in no way be guilty based on evidence. For whatever reason I feel real strongly about this too.

 

Still its awful that this is being handled in a public forum (the parents and husband fighting).

[Texsox]

I don't know why him having another "life" doesn't bother me like it does others.. I guess because if this was me I would not want Jim stopping his life for me if he was told by several doctors that there was no hope and after 7 years I did not improve. I'd want him to have someone to turn to for comfort. You guys are human.. and with that is the need for companionship. I don't think it makes his decision easier.. I think it makes it more tolerable.

 

I agree 100%. And it is also what I would want my wife to do. But my wife and I also agree that if our parents were willing to care for us, we would want that. If by being kept alive we could make our parents happy, we would. It seems like a fair deal for the people who gave us life.

 

Steff, I admire your steadfastness on this issue. It is a difficult decision for most people to say that an innocent human is better off dead. I think your compassion for Terri is genuine and hope you don't mind our difference of opinion.

 

I still think the husband is not the kind of person I would want my daughter to marry.

[Steff]

I haven't said anything about this thus far.. but Terri was bulemic and was for several years before this incident - before her and Michael were together/married. Terry's parents have mysteriously never addressed anything that led up to this condition. I knew a few of these gals in high school... not nice home life's. I also know a recovering one - in her late 30's now - and she said her condition was a result of things that happened in her childhood. I am on no way, shape, or form blaming her parents for where she is now... but that's one of the things that makes me question them. I just don't think their motives are as innocent as they claim them to be.

[Queen Prawn]

So bulemia is the eating disorder that was being referred to that she suffered from before she had the potassium issue?

[Steff]

Yes, but its his attitude.  Put it this way, my wifes dying. I'm sure we've had a talk. If she's a vegetable and had no choice, maybe you pull the plug.  But you'd be sad about it and you wouldn't be interferring with the doctors who actually have had some hope that she would recover.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if I have a shot at recovering I don't want the plug pulled on me, if I'm a vegetable for life, I'd probably say pull the plug.

 

But this husband is a royal jag.  He did everything possible to hinder her recovery, and was hoping she'd just die.  I'd be damn sad and it would be a hard thing.  I wouldn't just show up at the hospital going, Is She dead yet. 

 

I heard enough after hearing her nurse and some of her doctors talk.  I think the other side of the story is that the prick husband did something to cause her condition.

 

If these guy came off as sad saying he just didn't want to see her like this anymore with pain, etc I'd have a better feeling about it.  But everything I hear is she has some semblance of where she is and smiles and kind of understands whats going on.  Plus they think there is a shot she could recover.  Not to mention the husband did all he could to interfere with the recovery.

 

And just think, this is coming from me, the person who thought Scott Peterson should in no way be guilty based on evidence.  For whatever reason I feel real strongly about this too.

 

Still its awful that this is being handled in a public forum (the parents and husband fighting).

 

 

So much for the other side of the story... :rolly

 

 

You think he had something to do with this...?? Jason.. please read up on bulemia. He didn't have anything to do with this. As a matter of fact.. it was because of the bulemia that he won the lawsuit in the first place. As much of an idiot I think BOTH sides are.. no way did he do this to her. I strongly believe that.

[Chisoxfn]

Actually I had no idea about the bulemia. And my problem isn't with him having another life.

 

If I'm on my death bed with only some shot at a recovery, I wouldn't want my family or wife or whoever waiting around for me. If I had a shot at recovering I'd like them to care for me and be there, but at the same time they can and better move on with there lives.

 

Just like when I die, I don't want people all sad at the funeral crying. I want them talking about how great I was, LOL.

[Steff]

I agree 100%. And it is also what I would want my wife to do. But my wife and I also agree that if our parents were willing to care for us, we would want that. If by being kept alive we could make our parents happy, we would. It seems like a fair deal for the people who gave us life.

 

Steff, I admire your steadfastness on this issue. It is a difficult decision for most people to say that an innocent human is better off dead. I think your compassion for Terri is genuine and hope you don't mind our difference of opinion.

 

I still think the husband is not the kind of person I would want my daughter to marry.

 

 

 

No way do I mind... I appreciate it.

 

And I understand the position you and Mrs Tex stand on.. I may think differently if I was faced with this. In my instance it would be me versus Jim's kids (his mom would likely not be able to handle the burden as she is 80 years old), and that's not something I would look forward to. Jim and I have orders in place.. they include him being creamated which I know his kids are going to fight tooth and nail... makes me ill just thinking about it.

[Steff]

Actually I had no idea about the bulemia.  And my problem isn't with him having another life.

 

If I'm on my death bed with only some shot at a recovery, I wouldn't want my family or wife or whoever waiting around for me.  If I had a shot at recovering I'd like them to care for me and be there, but at the same time they can and better move on with there lives.

 

Just like when I die, I don't want people all sad at the funeral crying.  I want them talking about how great I was, LOL.

 

 

Brain cells don't grow back.. she is never going to improve.

[Steff]

So bulemia is the eating disorder that was being referred to that she suffered from before she had the potassium issue?

 

 

Yea.

[Queen Prawn]

Yea.

 

Makes sense. I've heard that in almost every case of bulemia that potassium deficiency becomes an issue at some point (no, I don't have a link, it was something I read).

[Texsox]

Brain cells don't grow back.. she is never going to improve.

What happens is other areas of the brain take over for the damaged areas. Brain cells are a use it or lose proposition which is why his refusing basic things like taking her outside and holding a wet towel, are so objectionable.

 

It is far easier for me to side with the parents on motives. Would anyone here want to care for Terri for the rest of your life? The husband is free. It seems like he wins of he gets his way, if the parents get theirs, they are in for a lot of work.

[JUGGERNAUT]

There are actually 4 threads remaining to Terri's life:

1- The USSC

They could decide to take on the case based on the Schiavo Law. If they

do so it would increase Terri's chances because they see a means to re-insert the tubes.

 

2 - Judge Greer

It is possible the sworn testimony of the neurologist from the Mayo clinic could cause him to re-evaluate his decision. That would re-insert the tubes.

 

3 - Florida Appeals Court

Judge Greer earlier adjoined an argument by FLDCFS to take Terri into protective custody based on new evidence. So the FLDCFS is appealing to the FL court of appeals. Again if they see reason they could re-examine the facts of the case. That would re-insert the tubes.

 

4 - Executive order by Gov Bush. I don't know the particulars. I'm guessing this is a last ditch effort to buy time that would be very temporary.

Edited March 24, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[jackie hayes]

What happens is other areas of the brain take over for the damaged areas. Brain cells are a use it or lose proposition which is why his refusing basic things like taking her outside and holding a wet towel, are so objectionable.

 

It is far easier for me to side with the parents on motives. Would anyone here want to care for Terri for the rest of your life? The husband is free. It seems like he wins of he gets his way, if the parents get theirs, they are in for a lot of work.

Not true, at least in this case. From webmd, a doctor at the Univ of Rochester:

It means the lower part of the brain that tells her lungs to breathe is still intact. But it doesn't mean she has any thoughts or the ability to experience anything. Her brain is pretty much full of fluid. Barring some miracle, she will never get any better than she is now. There is nothing in medicine we know of that will make her able to think or experience again. To suggest there are medical therapies that can help her - that all she needs is tender loving care and she will be romping in the back yard again - is cruel.

Here's the link.

[Rex Kickass]

Yes, but its his attitude.  Put it this way, my wifes dying. I'm sure we've had a talk. If she's a vegetable and had no choice, maybe you pull the plug.  But you'd be sad about it and you wouldn't be interferring with the doctors who actually have had some hope that she would recover.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if I have a shot at recovering I don't want the plug pulled on me, if I'm a vegetable for life, I'd probably say pull the plug.

 

But this husband is a royal jag.  He did everything possible to hinder her recovery, and was hoping she'd just die.  I'd be damn sad and it would be a hard thing.  I wouldn't just show up at the hospital going, Is She dead yet. 

 

I heard enough after hearing her nurse and some of her doctors talk.  I think the other side of the story is that the prick husband did something to cause her condition.

 

If these guy came off as sad saying he just didn't want to see her like this anymore with pain, etc I'd have a better feeling about it.  But everything I hear is she has some semblance of where she is and smiles and kind of understands whats going on.  Plus they think there is a shot she could recover.  Not to mention the husband did all he could to interfere with the recovery.

 

And just think, this is coming from me, the person who thought Scott Peterson should in no way be guilty based on evidence.  For whatever reason I feel real strongly about this too.

 

Still its awful that this is being handled in a public forum (the parents and husband fighting).

 

You think that after 7 years of fighting to grant her her final wish, that he might have run out of sadness?

[CanOfCorn]

You think that after 7 years of fighting to grant her her final wish, that he might have run out of sadness?

 

To your point, although I would have worded it better, you are absolutely right. She is no longer who he married and as Steff said (I believe), you can't expect the poor guy to dote on his vegetative wife.

 

It's a real sad story but a great philosophical convo...when does your wife/child/family member/friend cease to be that person? Is the act of being alive enough? Or is it recognition? What level of brain function is enough?

 

If you ask me, which you didn't, she is no longer the person he married. Nor is she the person her parents raised. So sad.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know why him having another "life" doesn't bother me like it does others.. I guess because if this was me I would not want Jim stopping his life for me if he was told by several doctors that there was no hope and after 7 years I did not improve. I'd want him to have someone to turn to for comfort. You guys are human.. and with that is the need for companionship. I don't think it makes his decision easier.. I think it makes it more tolerable.

 

Especially since it has been widely reported that her parents are the ones who encouraged him to go out and start seeing other people, even going so far as to set him up with other people.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

I just feel so sorry for this woman's family. I mean she's already gone as far as i'm concerned. I mean she's not just going to wake up and suddenly be normal. I just hope that god can give her family the strength to let go of her.

[Rex Kickass]

There's a great diary on dailykos about this. Say what you will about it being a flaming liberal blog, but this entry was particularly compelling.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/23/155051/329

 

Here's a highlight.

 

I only have one conservative friend who has sought out an argument over this.  Most of my dittohead buddies are with the overwhelming majority of Americans who say "let her go."  But this one guy really had a bug up his ass about it, and I want to understand more about the other side of the argument.

 

His theory is that Michael Schiavo wants Terri to die because he won't get a divorce for religious reasons.  I don't know if that's true or not.  Could be.  But to support his claim he explained that Michael has essentially `remarried' and has two kids with this other woman.  I did not know that.  He seemed to think that supported his argument.  I thought it kind of destroyed it.  If the guy didn't want a divorce for religious reasons, why would he commit adultery?  It seems to make more sense to me that he doesn't want a divorce because then her parents become her guardian.  And they've made it clear that they will do anything (amputate limbs, open heart surgery, whatever) to keep her alive...as any parent might.  But he also claims that that isn't what Terri wanted.

 

See, this is where the whole argument falls apart for me.  I see posted on right-wing blogs the question "Why won't this asshole just let her parents take care of her?"  And the only answer I can come back to is that he honest to God must believe this is what Terri wanted.  Some people say he's just doing it for `the money.'  But Michael's been offered as much as $10,000,000 to walk away, and he won't do it.  How easy would it be for him to walk away from this with $10 mil if he had even the slightest doubt in his heart about Terri's wishes?

 

Maybe someone can convince me otherwise.  Maybe I'm just not seeing something here.  But the only thing that makes sense to me is that Michael's integrity is worth more than $10 million, and he's not interested in selling out his wife.  If it was my wife, and we'd had that conversation, I would fight just as hard. 

 

There are some of the obligatory `wacky conspiracy theories' that Michael was abusive and caused her heart failure, but sadly there wasn't any credible (or otherwise) evidence to support it.  Even with evidence it still wouldn't explain why he's turning down $10 mil.  The abusive guys I've known ("ROD!"...Friggin' asshole) would probably put their spouses in a vegetative state for $10 million.  They sure as Hell wouldn't turn it down if their spouse was already in one.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Especially since it has been widely reported that her parents are the ones who encouraged him to go out and start seeing other people, even going so far as to set him up with other people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

SS, this is why the case is so complex. For every negative thing reported about Michael there is probably a positive as well. I think putting all that aside it comes down to one question: did Michael do everything in his power to improve Terri's condition? That means exhausting every possibililty within his grasp to improve her life? We have court affidavits by care workers, parents, other family, friends, & several doctors that believe the answer is no.

 

That right there casts the most doubt on Michael's motive. Ask the next question.

Let's say Michael had Terri's best interests at heart & was truthful in determing her right-to-die wishes. Why then did he deny her rehab & therapy for so many years?

Why did he wait until after he became engaged to file a motion for her right to die?

 

Would you agree that it at least casts doubt on his motives?

 

Then there's the money. There might not be any left now after court costs but what was left at the time he filed his first motion to remove the tubes? Was Terri's case already reaching celeb status at that time? What are the book & movie rights worth now? Who owns those rights? This case is known world-wide now.

 

Latest update:

The latest bill on the FL Senate has been defeated. Two in one day.

 

As reported today under emergency protective services of vulnerable adults FLDCFS has the statuatory power to take Terri into protective custody & make her a ward of the state. FL law allows them to do that. Apparently they feel they have enough evidence to meet that statute.

 

I believe if they do this Greer's decision can not prevent it. Michael would have to file a new motion suing the state on the basis that Terri's r-t-d rights have been violated.

It's anybody's guess where that will lead.

 

Gov Bush has to weigh the FL court of opinion before doing this. He also needs to make sure it's iron-clad to get what he wants: the tubes re-inserted. That's probably why he hasn't done it yet.

 

Terri has taken a turn for the worse. Time is running out for Gov Bush to act.

[southsider2k5]

My next question is why is no one questioning the parents motives? With the links to bullemia, there might be some stuff to go off. There could very well have been abuse, and wanting to keep her alive could be an appeasement of their guilt. Why are we only questioning the husband here?