Terri Shaivo thread

[YASNY]

If Terri was a dog, they'd give her an injection.

If you starved a dog to death, you'd be arrected and prosecuted for cruelty to animals.

They shoot horses, don't they?

 

Humane. What the hell is humane? What is our criteria for being humane? Is Dr. Korvokian a criminal or an angel of mercy?

 

I don't pretend to know the answers as to what is right and what is wrong in a situation like this. This is the definition of a "grey area". There is no pretense of black and white in this case.

 

I also don't know what else to say. I have prayed, that if it's God's will, that she has a full recovery so that she can speak for herself. So that Terri can tell us what it was like to lay there and know, if she knew, that her life was the focus of the nation. So she could tell if Michael had her best interests at heart, or his own. I don't know and I cannot understand anyone who proclaims to know.

[Texsox]

If Terri was a dog, they'd give her an injection. 

If you starved a dog to death, you'd be arrected and prosecuted for cruelty to animals.

They shoot horses, don't they?

 

Humane.  What the hell is humane?  What is our criteria for being humane?  Is Dr. Korvokian a criminal or an angel of mercy?

 

I don't pretend to know the answers as to what is right and what is wrong in a situation like this.  This is the definition of a "grey area".  There is no pretense of black and white in this case. 

 

I also don't know what else to say.  I have prayed, that if it's God's will, that she has a full recovery so that she can speak for herself.  So that Terri can tell us what it was like to lay there and know, if she knew, that her life was the focus of the nation.  So she could tell if Michael had her best interests at heart, or his own.  I don't know and I cannot understand anyone who proclaims to know.

 

YASNY, if Terri had murdered 26 people, they would have given her an injection. This is the worse of all possible outcomes, no matter what you think should be her fate.

[sox4lifeinPA]

If Terri was a dog, they'd give her an injection. 

If you starved a dog to death, you'd be arrected and prosecuted for cruelty to animals.

They shoot horses, don't they?

 

Humane.  What the hell is humane?  What is our criteria for being humane?  Is Dr. Korvokian a criminal or an angel of mercy?

 

I don't pretend to know the answers as to what is right and what is wrong in a situation like this.  This is the definition of a "grey area".  There is no pretense of black and white in this case. 

 

I also don't know what else to say.  I have prayed, that if it's God's will, that she has a full recovery so that she can speak for herself.  So that Terri can tell us what it was like to lay there and know, if she knew, that her life was the focus of the nation.  So she could tell if Michael had her best interests at heart, or his own.  I don't know and I cannot understand anyone who proclaims to know.

 

 

When children are born with downs syndrome, we don't starve them to death right? We try our best to see life flourished. So everything changes when we're older? If this is true, then what is the problem with the death penalty? The state is saying that terri's wishes are to die rather than face a life "stuck" in a vegitative state. Why should it shock anyone that there are people who wish for inmates to die after committing and found guilty for henous crimes? It's society's wish that those people die rather than face a life "stuck" in a socio-pathic state.

 

I'm not trying to argue either way. I would just say that Life is life. Death is death. Do we kill some because of "choice" or "punishment" or protect "innocence" and try to heal the socially impared?

[YASNY]

I was not advocating the death penalty. I didn't even use the words in my post. Nor was I advocating giving Terri a lethal injection. I just threw some thoughts out there for the sake of contemplation. Stop putting words in my mouth, please.

[Soxfest]

I think this is an awful way for a person to pass on.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I was not advocating the death penalty.  I didn't even use the words in my post.  Nor was I advocating giving Terri a lethal injection.  I just threw some thoughts out there for the sake of contemplation.  Stop putting words in my mouth, please.

 

I was just replying to your post out of conveience (I hate that word...sp?). I was speaking about the issue in general, and not specifically to your post. hope that clears it up, YAS..

[1549]

It's been a while since I've been on the boards, this looks like a hot issue to come back to.

 

There was an excellent article in the New York Times this morning about the relationship between Schiavo and the Schindler family. It also deals with how Mr. Schiavo has dealt with his wife's brain damage since day 1.

 

He dedicated himself fully to his wife's healing when it happened. Promising to get her back to full health, moving in with the in-laws, driving Terri to California for experimental treatment, and even taking nursing classes to learn how to care for her.

 

He was described as a hospital administrator's worst nightmare, because he was constantly nagging for better care and was very critical.

 

Moving along, he wins a heft lawsuit against a fertility doctor that should have seen the potassium defficiancy. Arguments between Schiavo and the Schindlers over the money arise.

 

Schindler gets a girlfriend...he brings up Terri's 'wishes' to not be artificially kept alive.

 

I'm sure most of you knew all of this before, but he is such a hard character to judge.

 

I'm sure he wants to move on with his life...but the parents are probably saying "A brain dead Terri is still Terri and that is better than no terri"

 

Taking all this into account...I can not decide how I side in this case.

 

Lesson to be learned:

The sooner you get a living will, the better.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Good to see you 1549

 

[greasywheels121]

My first post in this thread that I've tried to ignore, but anyways...

 

It's good to see you back 1549!

[JUGGERNAUT]

We discussed this in more detail this past weekend & what's coming out of the Vatican on this is really what has made us reflect upon this deeper. It also put this in perspective for us as to who is to blame:

 

1) The Dr in the malpractice suit -

If he does his job to the best of his ability & spares no effort on the people he treats we most likely never even learn of Terri Schiavo's existence. Terri is most likely alive today living a happy life.

 

2) The FL legislature -

The right to die law clearly demonstrates a weakness when their are contested parties not just in establishing the right but also the diagnosis. Terri would not have been starved to death in other states because they hold higher standards for proving a R-t-D.

 

3) Judge Greer -

You can not ignore religious practice in determing a right to die in this decision. For all Catholics religious practice is devoted to the after life. Based on the latest polls & surveys Catholics who practice their faith overwhelmingly believe in the infaliability of the Pope. Someone doesn't arrive at that belief based on emotion. That's a well-though out belief. IMO, seeing a TV program & stating I wouldn't want to live like that doesn't trump that belief. It's an emotional response much like a reflex to what you've seen.

 

When the Vatican weighed in on this years ago Greer should have asked the question would Terri have choosen a right to die upon hearing the Vatican say she should continue to live? To answer that question he should have looked at her religious practice. Was Terri's devotion to her religion such that she would allow the Vatican to decide her faith? Based on what I've read the answer is yes.

 

4) Michael Schiavo -

You can argue his treatment of her, the $, etc. but there is one aspect of this that can't be debated: the role of the Church. From what I've read Michael is a Catholic who practices his faith religiously. The Church allows Catholics the right to refuse life support with a free conscience. It's not a right to die but rather a right to refuse artifical support. But that statute is trumped by any edict from the Vatican on an individual case. That's what's happened in this case. The Vatican has clearly stated they do not believe that Terri would opt to refuse to be fed under the current circumstances. That takes into consideration the many family members willing to care for her. Furthermore they believe Michael is wrong in choosing that decision for her.

 

From that point on Michael is commting a mortal sin that lies somewhere between murder & assisted suicide. He can only be granted absolution of that sin if he confesses it before God in the presence of a priest.

 

5) Terri Schiavo -

Her diet & her own behavior contributed greatly to her collapse.

 

6) Her high school -

If the school neglected it's role in teaching healthy diets it too is to blame as well.

 

==============================================

I can't stress this point any greater. For Catholics death is all about the after life. It makes no sense to ever assume that a practicing Catholic would choose to refuse to be fed when the Vatican says they shouldn't.

 

Should Catholics defer this decision to their Church? If you take your faith seriously that would be the most logical choice. Should the law recognize this as a legitimate choice? Yes. Religion can not be ignored in such a decision.

 

Considering the religious in general it seems to me you should always defer to your Church in making this decision when suicide has severe consequences in the after life. For most faiths that is the case. It's a sin that can not be forgiven in your time in this world.

 

Looking at the living will document I think that means choosing life in all of the cases but including specific instructions that a right to die be recognized in any case where

the highest ranking member at our registered parish/church expresses written approval of that right to die. We are both Christian but share different denomination s so we feel that will cover both of us.

Edited March 27, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Texsox]

Juggernaut, be careful in generalizing all Catholics. Any group of that size has individuals of all stripes. I've heard from Pro-Choice Nuns and Pro Death Penalty Priests. And that's just the professional side. The flock is even more diverse. My Catholic Church is very progressive, the Church staff is unionized, as part of an organization called Valley Interfaith we have aggressively pursued political gains and influence. We have been fighting for better representation in our city's government, and pushed for livable wage standards, above minimum wage. Many of these are at odds with mainstream Catholicism either by tradition or Tradition. We rejected several Priests that the Bishop assigned us and fought against the Bishop's control of personnel matters.

Edited March 27, 2005 by Texsox

[JUGGERNAUT]

Juggernaut, be careful in generalizing all Catholics. Any group of that size has individuals of all stripes. I've heard from Pro-Choice Nuns and Pro Death Penalty Priests. And that's just the professional side. The flock is even more diverse. My Catholic Church is very progressive, the Church staff is unionized, as part of an organization called Valley Interfaith we have aggressively pursued political gains and influence. We have been fighting for better representation in our city's government, and pushed for livable wage standards, above minimum wage. Many of these are at odds with mainstream Catholicism either by tradition or Tradition. We rejected several Priests that the Bishop assigned us and fought against the Bishop's control of personnel matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's why I made reference to polls & surveys. There are fringe groups within the Roman Catholic faiths just like any where else but by & large I think the statement is accurate. Most who attend Church regularly & attend confession often believe in the Pope being infaliable when it comes to matters of faith & morals. Expressing a right to die is definitely a moral decision.

 

That was my main point. Many people turn to the voice of authority in their faith when it comes to issues of faith & morals. It doesn't matter whether you are Muslim or Catholic. Right to die definitely falls in that category & for these people getting approval from that body makes sense. Getting that approval in writing makes legal sense.

Edited March 27, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Rex Kickass]

Juggernaut, be careful in generalizing all Catholics. Any group of that size has individuals of all stripes. I've heard from Pro-Choice Nuns and Pro Death Penalty Priests. And that's just the professional side. The flock is even more diverse. My Catholic Church is very progressive, the Church staff is unionized, as part of an organization called Valley Interfaith we have aggressively pursued political gains and influence. We have been fighting for better representation in our city's government, and pushed for livable wage standards, above minimum wage. Many of these are at odds with mainstream Catholicism either by tradition or Tradition. We rejected several Priests that the Bishop assigned us and fought against the Bishop's control of personnel matters.

 

Actually if you look in historical documentation from the Catholic Church, they have been purposely vague.

[Texsox]

That's why I made reference to polls & surveys.  There are fringe groups within the Roman Catholic faiths just like any where else but by & large I think the statement is accurate.  Most who attend Church regularly & attend confession often believe in the Pope being infaliable when it comes to matters of faith & morals.  Expressing a right to die is definitely a moral decision.

 

That was my main point.  Many people turn to the voice of authority in their faith when it comes to issues of faith & morals.  It doesn't matter whether you are Muslim or Catholic.  Right to die definitely falls in that category & for these people getting approval from that body makes sense. Getting that approval in writing makes legal sense.

 

I would also caution against calling them fringe groups. Just ask Luther how well fringe groups can prosper.

[1549]

I'm in a catholic fringe group: We only go to church when a parent makes us.

[Texsox]

I'm in a catholic fringe group: We only go to church when a parent makes us.

 

I was in a Catholic fringe group, but that went out of style in the 70s.

 

[Goldmember]

1549!

[LowerCaseRepublican]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0327-01.htm

 

Link originally from the LA Times...

 

Tom DeLay a moral hypocrite (again) -- you don't say. I wonder what he would have done if Congress did half of what they're doing with Terri Schiavo if he was in the situation again.

[Texsox]

I knew it would happen sooner or later, some people have started Schiavo death pools, trying to guess the hour she passes :headshake

[sox4lifeinPA]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0327-01.htm

 

Link originally from the LA Times...

 

Tom DeLay a moral hypocrite (again) -- you don't say.  I wonder what he would have done if Congress did half of what they're doing with Terri Schiavo if he was in the situation again.

 

 

The man in a coma, kept alive by intravenous lines and oxygen equipment, was DeLay's father, Charles Ray DeLay.

 

 

Sideshowapu, a gross generalizer (again) -- you don't say. um, I hate to break it to you, but like Bill Hicks, your sad, sad generalizations and over-statements are uber-transparent.

 

there's a huge difference between someone in a coma on a respirator and a woman who is responsive to her surroundings and needs help eating.

[Heads22]

I may have this mixed up, but in the human anatomy class I took last year, pain receptors and other sensory infomation, etc. is relayed through the nervous system to the brain and back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to actually have any responsiveness to the environment in a physical sense, wouldn't there have to be brain activity as tracked on an EEG? I'm no expert, but if I paid any attention, that's what I seem to remember.

[kapkomet]

Defintely beyond my expertise, but IIRC one can still feel pain, etc. because a lot of that is controlled through the brain stem, which Terri still has fully intact.

[Heads22]

Would the brainstem not be in the EEG? Because was only the cerebrum deprived of oxygen, etc., as that wouldn't really make a whole lot of sense.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Sideshowapu, a gross generalizer (again) -- you don't say.    um, I hate to break it to you, but like Bill Hicks, your sad, sad generalizations and over-statements are uber-transparent.

 

there's a huge difference between someone in a coma on a respirator and a woman who is responsive to her surroundings and needs help eating.

 

Both stricken patients were severely brain-damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared from being kept alive by artificial means. And neither of them had a living will. So why is it alright for DeLay to do it and then stand on his soapbox about how we need to err on the side of life? /DeLay playing the Christian right like a cheap fiddle

[Texsox]

Both stricken patients were severely brain-damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared from being kept alive by artificial means. And neither of them had a living will.  So why is it alright for DeLay to do it and then stand on his soapbox about how we need to err on the side of life?  /DeLay playing the Christian right like a cheap fiddle

 

The Schiavo case, there seems to be a cloud of suspicion as to what her wishes really are, complicated by her husband's only contact with her is to have her die. I do believe that every case is different in many ways, yet they all involve ending a human life.

 

Some people place an ultimate value on human life. They do not diminish that "value" based on IQ, personality, physical attributes, sex, or deeds committed.