Possible Sox&Reds Deal

[YASNY]

In you mind I imagined not but if your argument held any weight there would be at least one other roid player you could compare him to showing such a demonstrative change in walks as a result of roids.  I'm asuming since you can't even name such a player you have no basis other than your opinion to support your argument.

 

You could ask the question if Bonds only hit's 40-50 HR's during those yr's roids-free would teams have still intentionally walked him as many times as they did?  I believe the answer is yes.  You're making the assumption that w/out roids Barry is hitting fly outs.  You can take the other argument that w/out roids Barry is not swinging for the fences as much & he's hitting more doubles & singles.

 

No. I'm making the assumption that Bonds would not have been intentionally walked as much as he has been. I'm also making the assumption that pitchers would not pitch around him as much. There is no way to make a comparison to any other player, as no player has had a comparable season to Bonds. So I cannot find another roid player to compare him to.

[RockRaines]

In you mind I imagined not but if your argument held any weight there would be at least one other roid player you could compare him to showing such a demonstrative change in walks as a result of roids.  I'm asuming since you can't even name such a player you have no basis other than your opinion to support your argument.

 

You could ask the question if Bonds only hit's 40-50 HR's during those yr's roids-free would teams have still intentionally walked him as many times as they did?  I believe the answer is yes.  You're making the assumption that w/out roids Barry is hitting fly outs.  You can take the other argument that w/out roids Barry is not swinging for the fences as much & he's hitting more doubles & singles.

I somewhat agree with your argument based on the other players that we have seen on Roids. Namely Sosa who, even though he was dangerous at the plate, never came close to the walks and OBP that Bonds has been able to achieve.

[YASNY]

Let me clarify a bit, here. Bonds does have great batting eye, and that does not come from roids. No arguing that point. But still, he was unbelievable for a couple of years, and no one has intimidated pitchers and managers like he did. That, in itself, would add to his walk total. His awesome power contributed greatly to that intimidation.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Let me clarify a bit, here.  Bonds does have great batting eye, and that does not come from roids.  No arguing that point.  But still, he was unbelievable for a couple of years, and no one has intimidated pitchers and managers like he did.  That, in itself, would add to his walk total.  His awesome power contributed greatly to that intimidation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem I have with making that leap is that the majority of Bonds HR's are in Covey Bay. That park is tailor made for that player. Roids stretched the distance on those HR's. Without roids he probably still hits them for HR's. So I agree the HR numbers would be down & the SLG numbers would be down but I don't think his other numbers would vary much.

 

I give the park he plays in much more credit than the roids for his success.

[ptatc]

The problem I have with making that leap is that the majority of Bonds HR's are in Covey Bay.  That park is tailor made for that player.  Roids stretched the distance on those HR's.  Without roids he probably still hits them for HR's.  So I agree the HR numbers would be down & the SLG numbers would be down but I don't think his other numbers would vary much. 

 

I give the park he plays in much more credit than the roids for his success.

 

I respectfully disagree. Without the 73 HR's he would not get 120 IBBs. He may get most of the non-intentionals but not the IBB. He does have a great eye but you look at the HR's and that's why he was walked so often. This increased his OBP and OPS artificially. He would still be a great player but not out of this world.

[witesoxfan]

Roids enabled Bonds to hit more HR's which then is factored into the calculation of his OPS, OBP, & SLG.  Unless you have another roids player to compare him to that clearly shows that roids enabled him to hit more singles, doubles, triples, & get walks you are standing in a pile of bulls***.

 

I don't get what the singles, double, and triples have to do with anything(because, for starters, singles mean very little in SLG, and you rarely see roid players get triples), but anyways...

 

Sammy Sosa.

 

I would like some type of explanation as to how he went from a .320 OBP guy, at the highest, throughout his career, to putting up OBP's in the .400s. You think him hitting 129 homers between 98 and 99 maybe had something to do with it?

 

I could see .285 35 100 .350 .900 numbers or so from Sosa off roids...but no way in hell he puts up a .400 OBP without roids.

[kwill]

I dont know if you know this or not guys but San Fran park is massive and one of the biggest ballparks in the league. It plays huge and is very spacious and only one other player has hti the ball into the water

[witesoxfan]

I dont know if you know this or not guys but San Fran park is massive and one of the biggest ballparks in the league. It plays huge and is very spacious and only one other player has hti the ball into the water

 

Barry say: THANKS MANNY!

[chisox05]

Roids enabled Bonds to hit more HR's which then is factored into the calculation of his OPS, OBP, & SLG.  Unless you have another roids player to compare him to that clearly shows that roids enabled him to hit more singles, doubles, triples, & get walks you are standing in a pile of bulls***.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

AS a previous poster said, if u dont understand how his hr rate effected his walk total, your a complete idiot.

 

When you hit many homeruns, pitchers fear u more, therefore they will pitch around pumping ur walk total greatly.

 

It is just like a guy who steals bases. Does a pitcher treat Frank Thomas on first base the same as he treats Scott Podsednik on first base? NO! Does a pitcher treat Michael Tucker the same as he treats Barry Bonds hitting? NO!

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

How did we go from a possible Sox-Reds trade to Barry Bonds and steroids? Anyway, is anyone else concerned that Cliff Politte is total s***?

[JUGGERNAUT]

I dont know if you know this or not guys but San Fran park is massive and one of the biggest ballparks in the league. It plays huge and is very spacious and only one other player has hti the ball into the water

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You obviously have not looked at his hit chart:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/ml...1188&statType=1

It's tailor-made for Barry & probably few others.

 

Now I'll say this again, look at the chart & look at the distance on his HR's. That's roids.

There's no doubt about that. But there's also reason to believe w/out roids he'll still hit the HR's. Just no where near as far. Probably most of his HR's would have stayed in the BP.

 

If you're saying Sosa is .350 OBP w/out roids & .400 OBP w roids that's not a major difference. In Sosa's case you could argue more of his HR's are fly outs because of his lower average & lower OBP preceding his HR years.

 

There just is no one else like Barry in the game today. Now if you want to make the argument he'd be unable to play as much as he did I'll buy that. Barry has basically confessed that much. Without roids he's sitting a lot more than he did. That would have had the biggest impact on his numbers.

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/ml...2544&statType=1

Sosa's HR's are towering as well.

[ptatc]

You obviously have not looked at his hit chart:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/ml...1188&statType=1

It's tailor-made for Barry & probably few others.

 

Now I'll say this again, look at the chart & look at the distance on his HR's.  That's roids.

There's no doubt about that.  But there's also reason to believe w/out roids he'll still hit the HR's.  Just no where near as far.  Probably most of his HR's would have stayed in the BP.

 

If you're saying Sosa is .350 OBP w/out roids & .400 OBP w roids that's not a major difference.  In Sosa's case you could argue more of his HR's are fly outs because of his lower average & lower OBP preceding his HR years. 

 

There just is no one else like Barry in the game today.  Now if you want to make the argument he'd be unable to play as much as he did I'll buy that.  Barry has basically confessed that much.  Without roids he's sitting a lot more than he did.  That would have had the biggest impact on his numbers.

 

What happens to the OBP when you are intentionally walked? This is not Bonds having a good eye or the pitcher missing the plate. He had 120 at bats where the other manager didn't even try. These IBB numbers have only increased in the last few years as a result of the increased HR's up to 73. If he was only hiotting 40-50 he would not get the IBB and the ungodly OBP that he has.

[qwerty]

I dont know if you know this or not guys but San Fran park is massive and one of the biggest ballparks in the league. It plays huge and is very spacious and only one other player has hti the ball into the water

 

Not true.

Edited March 25, 2005 by qwerty

[Purdue129]

I dont know if you know this or not guys but San Fran park is massive and one of the biggest ballparks in the league. It plays huge and is very spacious and only one other player has hti the ball into the water

 

It's deep in right-center, but super short down the right field line.

[Jabroni]

It's deep in right-center, but super short down the right field line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, 309 feet down the RF line to be exact.

[YASNY]

You obviously have not looked at his hit chart:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/ml...1188&statType=1

It's tailor-made for Barry & probably few others.

 

Now I'll say this again, look at the chart & look at the distance on his HR's.  That's roids.

There's no doubt about that.  But there's also reason to believe w/out roids he'll still hit the HR's.  Just no where near as far.  Probably most of his HR's would have stayed in the BP.

 

If you're saying Sosa is .350 OBP w/out roids & .400 OBP w roids that's not a major difference.  In Sosa's case you could argue more of his HR's are fly outs because of his lower average & lower OBP preceding his HR years. 

 

There just is no one else like Barry in the game today.  Now if you want to make the argument he'd be unable to play as much as he did I'll buy that.  Barry has basically confessed that much.  Without roids he's sitting a lot more than he did.  That would have had the biggest impact on his numbers.

 

 

Hit charts or no hit charts. Barry Bonds use of steroids has taken him from a damn good ballplayer, to one that was considered in the greatest of all time argument. And, if I may add, it propelled him to that pinnacle at an age when most ballplayers start losing their skills, sometimes very quickly. Look at Barry Bonds' career prior to the '99 season, at about age 34, and he was a questionable HOF'er. But in '98 Mac and Sosa did their thing so Barry went that route too. You can see it in his stats, which you seem to be so fond of, and his photos. Steroids made Barry Bonds the player he is today. No ifs ands or buts about it, in my opinion.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Hit charts or no hit charts.  Barry Bonds use of steroids has taken him from a damn good ballplayer, to one that was considered in the greatest of all time argument.  And, if I may add, it propelled him to that pinnacle at an age when most ballplayers start losing their skills, sometimes very quickly.  Look at Barry Bonds' career prior to the '99 season, at about age 34, and he was a questionable HOF'er.  But in '98 Mac and Sosa did their thing so Barry went that route too.  You can see it in his stats, which you seem to be so fond of, and his photos.  Steroids made Barry Bonds the player he is today.  No ifs ands or buts about it, in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that roids allowed him to play at a higher level more of the time at an advanced age. But we also know there are many substances that are legal in MLB that Bonds could have used as well. Creotine for example is one. What I'm saying is on a level playing field where no one is juiced is Barry still considered the best player in the game for those years? I don't see any evidence that would suggest otherwise.

 

On the subject of Babe Ruth & Barry Bonds, let's not forget that it is public record today that Ruth was essentially a lush. He played most of the times being buzzed & over-fed. To imagine what he would put up today with the focus to health & conditioning boggles the mind. Regardless of what any other player does Ruth in my opinion will remain the greatest player to ever play the game. Let's not forget dirty tricks with the norm when Ruth played. Pitchers did things that would clearly be illegal in the game today.

Edited March 25, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[YASNY]

What I'm saying is on a level playing field where no one is juiced is Barry still considered the best player in the game for those years? I don't see any evidence that would suggest otherwise.

 

One of the best during those years? Ok, I'll give you that. He was "damn good", which is another way of saying he was one of the best. But I'm saying he was one of the best prior to '99. Who knows what BB would have accomplished without steroids at 35+ years of age. Maybe nothing. At 36 he may have been a washed up old ballplayer. His father was, fwiw. Whatever Barry has achieved since opening day 1999 is tainted and very questionable. Prior to 1999, he was "damn good" ... but that does not mean HOF material. Again. you are looking for "evidence" in a situation to where none can possibly exist. The best eveidence is his record prior to '99 and compare that to what has happened to other players at 35+ years of age. I still maintain the Bonds would be a questionable HOF'er, at best.

[ptatc]

On the subject of Babe Ruth & Barry Bonds, let's not forget that it is public record today that Ruth was essentially a lush.  He played most of the times being buzzed & over-fed.  To imagine what he would put up today with the focus to health & conditioning boggles the mind.  Regardless of what any other player does Ruth in my opinion will remain the greatest player to ever play the game.  Let's not forget dirty tricks with the norm when Ruth played.  Pitchers did things that would clearly be illegal in the game today.

 

The thing that really puts Ruth over the top in my book is that he hit more HR's than most other TEAMS. No one will ever do that in today. That is what makes him the greatest and why Bonds will never be as great as him: steriods or no steriods.