McGwire no shoo-in for HOF

[bjm676]

Kinda long, but an interesting read.

 

Some Hall voters in a foul mood over fair play

 

NEW YORK -- Mark McGwire could miss out on making the Hall of Fame because of baseball's swirling steroids scandal, heightened by his refusal to answer specific questions before Congress, an Associated Press survey showed Thursday.

 

Barry Bonds would get enough support to make it into Cooperstown, but he's far from being a shoo-in, according to results from 155 Hall voters polled this week among the roughly 500 eligible.

 

Only 65 said they would vote for McGwire when he becomes eligible in two years or were leaning that way; 52 said no or were leaning that way and 38 were undecided.

 

Bonds received 105 votes for election, 25 against and 25 were undecided.

 

Players need 75 percent of the vote to get into the Hall.

 

McGwire got just 55.6 percent support from those who gave a yes/no response, while Bonds was at 80.8 percent.

 

"I will not vote for Mark McGwire," Bill Plaschke of the Los Angeles Times said. "It's obvious from his own statements he used some form of performance-enhancing drugs and it's obvious from his statistics he did not become a Hall of Fame-type player until he did so."

 

McGwire and Bonds are two of the biggest names in baseball -- one past, one present.

 

McGwire hit 583 home runs and ranks sixth on the career list, and broke Roger Maris' record in 1998 by hitting 70 home runs.

 

Bonds hit 73 home runs in 2001, breaking McGwire's mark. He now has 703, just 52 shy of Hank Aaron's record.

 

Among the 20 players to hit 500 homers, all who have appeared on the ballot are in the Hall.

 

NOW ... AND THE FUTURE

I like to think I cast educated votes when I fill out my Hall of Fame ballot. I like to think I know what I'm doing. Now, suddenly, I don't think I know enough about either Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds to cast the proper vote. Based solely on what I know for certain at this point in time, yes, I'd vote for both of them.

Based on what I'm likely to learn in the coming months ... not so much. If/when further evidence comes to light about steroids and their use of them, and if/when that evidence convinces me that they cheated to become Hall-worthy, my answer will change.

 

"Right now I'm sort of sitting on the fence, but leaning toward not voting for McGwire or Bonds because they cheated," said Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News, himself a member of the Hall's writers' wing.

 

"McGwire had the opportunity to say something, but didn't. To me, that's sort of like pleading the Fifth Amendment and not denying he did it," he said.

 

Subpoenaed by a congressional committee to testify last week, McGwire repeatedly refused to discuss whether he used illegal performance-enhancing drugs, saying he would not talk about the past.

 

The slugger was roundly criticized by fans, media and politicians -- even in Missouri, the state where he set the home-run record while playing for the St. Louis Cardinals.

 

"He had a chance to help himself, help his sport, a chance to help kids and the parents sitting behind him and he just whiffed," said Jay Mariotti of the Chicago Sun-Times. "It might as well be a guilt admission."

 

Bonds, who has denied using illegal steroids, was not asked to appear before Congress. But in 2003, the San Francisco star testified before the federal grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, known as BALCO.

 

Henry Schulman, who covers the Giants for the San Francisco Chronicle, plans to vote for both.

 

"The Hall of Fame is not a museum for saints. It's filled with racists, philanderers, players who used cork bats and spitters and everything at their disposal to their advantage," he said. "It's hard for me to single McGwire out. Unless he commits a crime, he's on my ballot."

 

As for Bonds, Schulman said: "I think he was a Hall of Famer before he had those monster home run seasons. … Even if he were convicted of a crime, I would probably give him my vote to be consistent within myself. I've always felt Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. I'd have to get some damning evidence confirmed on Barry before I would knock him off my first ballot."

 

There's no telling when members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America will be asked to decide on Bonds -- players must be retired for five years before going on the ballot.

 

The AP contacted members of the BBWAA who are eligible to vote or will be by 2007 and asked whether they would support Bonds and/or McGwire for the Hall. Seventeen of those were AP sports writers.

 

This year, 516 votes were cast for the Hall by BBWAA voters, who must be members of the organization for 10 consecutive years or more. The total of eligible voters is likely to increase slightly by the time McGwire and Bonds appear on the ballot.

 

Sheldon Ocker of the Akron Beacon Journal said no to McGwire -- but not because of the steroid issue.

 

"The only thing he has done to make him worthy of the Hall of Fame was break the home run record," he said. "Overall, he hasn't been good enough to get in."

 

Dan Le Batard of The Miami Herald said he would vote for both.

 

"Barry Bonds is the greatest player of our lifetime, with or without steroids. He won three MVPs as a stick figure," he said. "I don't think they were cheating. Something has to be against the rules for you to be cheating. Despite their size, these guys climbed through a loophole."

 

Baseball did not ban steroids until 2002.

 

"I begrudge the era that tolerated this more than I begrudge the man," said Jeff Horrigan of the Boston Herald, who said he would vote for both. "You can't wipe out the '90s."

 

Chris Haft, who covers the Giants for the San Jose Mercury News, would vote for Bonds but isn't sure about McGwire.

 

"I think a lot more will come out between now and two years from now. The events will make our decision a lot easier," he said. "All of us who vote take this really seriously. We also have the right to change our mind, because we're painfully human."

Edited March 26, 2005 by robinventura23

[qwerty]

Bonds is in no matter what.

[WHarris1]

It would be a travesty if he wasn't; like him or not.

[Reddy]

i would be fine with neither making it

[Kalapse]

Both will make the Hall of fame, Bonds will make it on 1st ballot and Mcguire will be 2nd or later.

[witesoxfan]

i would be fine with neither making it

 

I wouldn't.

 

Steroids or not, McGwire and Sosa saved baseball in '98 with their home run chase.

 

And, steroids or not, Bonds is still the only 500-500 player in the history of the game, and probably will be the only one...though I suppose I can't say that for sure.

[qwerty]

I wouldn't. 

 

Steroids or not, McGwire and Sosa saved baseball in '98 with their home run chase. 

 

And, steroids or not, Bonds is still the only 500-500 player in the history of the game, and probably will be the only one...though I suppose I can't say that for sure.

 

I would rather there be no baseball than cheaters. But maybe this is just me. I know they will be in the hallf of fame but asteriks really should be included. Even though selig is against it.

[witesoxfan]

I would rather there be no baseball than cheaters. But maybe this is just me. I know they will be in the hallf of fame but asteriks really should be included. Even though selig is against it.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to asterisks at all.

 

I do think that them both being in the 500 homer club, and due to them doing what they did for baseball, that they will be in.

[Kalapse]

If Roger Maris gets an asterisk then steroid users get them as well.

[knightni]

I would rather there be no baseball than cheaters. But maybe this is just me.

Yeah, well, as a person who has been a "religious" fan of baseball for over twenty years, the 1994 season was example enough to me why I disagree with you there.

[The Critic]

I also think they'll both get in eventually.

Might take McGwire a few tries, but I think eventually the numbers will win out.

[YASNY]

Cheaters. Gaylord Perry is in. Nuff said there.

 

But there is a degree issue here. Does Perry's occasional spitter equate to Bonds and Mac having that strength and the threat imposed by that strength on every pitch? This is a gray area.

[jackie hayes]

I wouldn't be opposed to asterisks at all. 

 

I do think that them both being in the 500 homer club, and due to them doing what they did for baseball, that they will be in.

I wonder though if voters will do a 'mental correction' to the hr totals, taking out the ones they believe to be post-steroid. (Not that there's any hard evidence -- I just mean, internally, making a guess.) At least, fair or not, that's how I seem to be thinking about it. And imo it's difficult to see how McGwire would have 500 'untainted' hr, but I think Bonds probably did. McGwire has to rely so much on that hr total, I don't know if he gets in if it gets discounted. Bonds was so good, for so long, at so many things, the only reason to leave him out would be to make a moral point, which I don't think the writers will do.

 

Anyway, 500 hr is such a stupid, arbitrary standard. Maybe one of the few good side-effects of the whole steroids scandal is that people will start placing less emphasis on this shibboleth.

[The Critic]

McGwire's supporters will remind you that he hit 49 HR his rookie year, when he was still a pencil.

I don't doubt that he could and probably would have hit 500 without juicing, that will never be known for sure, and his reputation will be tainted forever now.

 

I just think that in a few years, people will care less about any of this. I know this sounds like a contradiction, but I think both things are true. I think McGwire will always be seen as a cheater, but I think when the freshness of the scandal fades, he'll get in.

People always move on to the next outrage, evidenced by the growing support Pete Rose was getting for his HOF crusade until he exposed his decades of lying in order to sell a book.

[jackie hayes]

McGwire's supporters will remind you that he hit 49 HR his rookie year, when he was still a pencil.

I don't doubt that he could and probably would have hit 500 without juicing, that will never be known for sure, and his reputation will be tainted forever now.

 

I just think that in a few years, people will care less about any of this. I know this sounds like a contradiction, but I think both things are true. I think McGwire will always be seen as a cheater, but I think when the freshness of the scandal fades, he'll get in.

People always move on to the next outrage, evidenced by the growing support Pete Rose was getting for his HOF crusade until he exposed his decades of lying in order to sell a book.

I see your point, I just disagree. McGwire always had a ton of power (and he was never small), but he also got injured early and often. Without the huge surge at the end, which is under suspicion, I don't know if he gets 500. Who knows, though.

 

And, jmho, I think this will linger -- maybe not with all sportswriters, but there'll be enough to make his bid risky. He may get in, but if so I'd guess a squeaker.

[The Critic]

I see your point, I just disagree.  McGwire always had a ton of power (and he was never small), but he also got injured early and often.  Without the huge surge at the end, which is under suspicion, I don't know if he gets 500.  Who knows, though.

 

And, jmho, I think this will linger -- maybe not with all sportswriters, but there'll be enough to make his bid risky.  He may get in, but if so I'd guess a squeaker.

He may have never been "small", but he was much smaller as a rookie than in his glory years. Take a side-by-side look at him as a rook and in 98 - HUGE difference. Hardly even looks like the same guy.

And I see your point as well, and you may well be right. Only time will tell.

[jackie hayes]

He may have never been "small", but he was much smaller as a rookie than in his glory years. Take a side-by-side look at him as a rook and in 98 - HUGE difference. Hardly even looks like the same guy.

And I see your point as well, and you may well be right. Only time will tell.

Oh, I know, I've seen tons of those side-by-sides lately. I just mean compared to the changes in Sosa and Bonds, McGwire's is less dramatic. He had 'power potential' written all over him from day 1.