Gang to target vigilante border patrol

[southsider2k5]

I see your point, but we already 'reward' lazy American asses with welfare and aid.

 

Which I am totally against as well. No able bodied person should collect aid like that long term. At worst those systems were meant as temporary holdovers for people down on their luck. At best they were meant for the unemployable.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

If you actually go back and read what I posted, I am very much in favor of streamlined immigration and/or a big expanded guest worker program.

I have no problem with legal means being utilized.  I do have a problem going for my tax dollars supporting felonious activity.  Why should we reward illegal activity, that doesn't make any sense. Especially when the jobs they are taking are most likely being taken away from from new immigrants who have historically worked the least desirable jobs.  What kind of reward is following the law then?  What kind of message are we sending?

 

What % are felons and what felonious activities are being supported? I missed that part...

[southsider2k5]

What % are felons and what felonious activities are being supported?  I missed that part...

 

All of them. Being in the USA illegally is a felony.

[Texsox]

If you actually go back and read what I posted, I am very much in favor of streamlined immigration and/or a big expanded guest worker program.

I have no problem with legal means being utilized.  I do have a problem going for my tax dollars supporting felonious activity.  Why should we reward illegal activity, that doesn't make any sense. Especially when the jobs they are taking are most likely being taken away from from new immigrants who have historically worked the least desirable jobs.  What kind of reward is following the law then?  What kind of message are we sending?

 

The difference with the traditional jobs that the illegals take is that these are largely seasonal and temporary in nature. A guest worker program that allows them to return to their country of origin is better for our economy. These nomadic, temporary jobs, are really almost third world in nature. We should be thankful we have people so close and so willing.

 

The VISA programs also need to be changed. Two different issues, and ones I am so accustomed to, I apologize for not being clearer.

 

As far as rewarding the behavior, see above. No one wants to send dad back who is here illegally and leaving behind mom and the babies with no means of support. That's a drain as well. Never an easy issue. The Family Values party especially has to struggle with that.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

All of them.  Being in the USA illegally is a felony.

 

Making a living, supporting themselves and their families...it just doesn't seem very criminal to me.

[Texsox]

All of them.  Being in the USA illegally is a felony.

 

BTW, anyone want to guess how much we spend flying people back to their home countries when they are deported? Families that get stranded up north late in the season will just turn themselves in and take the US supplied transportation back home. :headshake

[LosMediasBlancas]

Which I am totally against as well.  No able bodied person should collect aid like that long term.  At worst those systems were meant as temporary holdovers for people down on their luck.  At best they were meant for the unemployable.

 

How about this, every year, the U.S. gov tracks down (and they can) those illegals who have been the most hard working and grants them citizenship. The same number of welfare and aid recipients get deported, deal? lol

[SleepyWhiteSox]

How about this, every year, the U.S. gov tracks down (and they can) those illegals who have been the most hard working and grants them citizenship. The same number of welfare and aid recipients get deported, deal?      lol

 

I like it.

[Texsox]

Making a living, supporting themselves and their families...it just doesn't seem very criminal to me.

 

And they are preyed on by landlords, farmers, ranchers, shop keepers. No one likes the system. Not the people who risk their lives crossing wilderness areas with little water for $5.00 per hour, the people who employ them, or the people who buy the cheap food that the illegals produce. The system needs to be fixed, but the fix is not paying field labor $21,000 per year. Which is the median income that most agriculture experts pick as the salary needed to get Americans to take these jobs. McDonalds pays close to that for indoor, year round work.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Texsox

[LosMediasBlancas]

I like it.

 

LOL, it's time we got this country back to one that works hard and not one that expects things on a platter.

[southsider2k5]

How about this, every year, the U.S. gov tracks down (and they can) those illegals who have been the most hard working and grants them citizenship. The same number of welfare and aid recipients get deported, deal?      lol

 

You would see our productivity numbers shoot through the roof.

[southsider2k5]

And they are preyed on by landlords, farmers, ranchers, shop keepers. No one likes the system. Not the people who risk their lives crossing wilderness areas with little water for $5.00 per hour, the people who employ them, or the people who buy the cheap food that the illegals produce. The system needs to be fixed, but the fix is not paying field labor $21,000 per year. Which is the median income that most agriculture experts pick as the salary needed to get Americans to take these jobs. McDonalds pays close to that for indoor, year round work.

 

I doubt the industry could support $10.50 an hour for a prevailing wage. But definately something needs to be done.

[TheBigHurt35]

Agreed that some sort of guest worker program with Mexico should be implemented. As long as it's LEGAL and CONTROLLED, it's not a problem.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I doubt the industry could support $10.50 an hour for a prevailing wage.    But definately something needs to be done.

 

They sure as hell could.

[southsider2k5]

They sure as hell could.

 

You believe that everyone could afford to pay double for the same amount of food?

[Texsox]

I doubt the industry could support $10.50 an hour for a prevailing wage.    But definately something needs to be done.

 

Exactly my point. To get Americans to take the jobs, would require those kind of wages. Which is why this is a difficult problem to solve. These are third world jobs that our economy has passed over. It is manual labor in the simplest form. Nomadic. Why would someone do that when McDonalds and WalMart are hiring?

 

Add up the costs to live on the road for a week. Where would you stay? $40 per night for a hotel room? Split 4 ways, is $1.50 per day per person. How about food, when you have no real home? Another $10 per day? Clothes, Gas, savings for the winter, etc.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

You believe that everyone could afford to pay double for the same amount of food?

 

I doubt it would come to that extreme.

 

The fact of the matter is that workers deserve to be fairly compensated for the work that they do.

[Texsox]

You believe that everyone could afford to pay double for the same amount of food?

 

Most estimates are in the 10-20% range, the prediction is we would start importing more food from Mexico and South America where the labor would be cheaper. Some rural farmers would go bankrupt, others would see homes being build on their land. Americans have never shown a willingness to spend more money for Made in America. We recently relaxed our laws to allow ground beef into this country. Thank you fast food burgers.

 

BTW, my favorite fast food burger only uses 100% American raised beef. What-A-Burger

 

We think dependency on foreign oil is problematic, imagine dependency on Argentina and El Salvador for our food?

[southsider2k5]

I doubt it would come to that extreme.

 

The fact of the matter is that workers deserve to be fairly compensated for the work that they do.

 

Economically something would have to give way. If wages went from way less than minimum wage, to say $10 an hour, the costs have to be absorbed somewhere. Either prices have to go up, or farmers would quit producing. If farmers were to quit producing prices would go up anyway, as there would be no change in basic demand. Food is an inelastic item in general. You HAVE to eat. Price increases would be passed on. Heck if wages went up 4X, we would probably be lucky to only see a 2X increase in prices.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Most estimates are in the 10-20% range, the prediction is we would start importing more food from Mexico and South America where the labor would be cheaper. Some rural farmers would go bankrupt, others would see homes being build on their land. Americans have never shown a willingness to spend more money for Made in America. We recently relaxed our laws to allow ground beef into this country. Thank you fast food burgers.

 

BTW, my favorite fast food burger only uses 100% American raised beef. What-A-Burger 

 

We think dependency on foreign oil is problematic, imagine dependency on Argentina and El Salvador for our food?

 

I LOVE whataburger, wish they were in Chicago.

[Rex Kickass]

Excellent post.

I do not support vigilantes patrolling our border, but I'd rather they do it than NOBODY.  Our own government is (and has been) failing us miserably on this issue.  I wonder how many al Qaeda operatives have already snuck into the country from Mexico.  Unfortunately, it's going to take one of them to detonate a nuclear weapon in downtown LA before our government does a damn thing about this.

 

So then why do you insist on reelecting the people who are falling down on the job?

[Texsox]

Economically something would have to give way.  If wages went from way less than minimum wage, to say $10 an hour, the costs have to be absorbed somewhere.  Either prices have to go up, or farmers would quit producing.  If farmers were to quit producing prices would go up anyway, as there would be no change in basic demand.  Food is an inelastic item in general.  You HAVE to eat.  Price increases would be passed on.  Heck if wages went up 4X, we would probably be lucky to only see a 2X increase in prices.

 

Like all other manufacturing jobs, we would go overseas. Like shirts, tvs, computers and everything else, foreign production is cheaper and when US producers cannot compete we will see more and more food items from places like Nicaragua.

[TheBigHurt35]

So then why do you insist on reelecting the people who are falling down on the job?

 

Like Clinton?

Edited March 29, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[southsider2k5]

Like all other manufacturing jobs, we would go overseas. Like shirts, tvs, computers and everything else, foreign production is cheaper and when US producers cannot compete we will see more and more food items from places like Nicaragua.

 

How much can they produce? The scale that the US produces on is unmatched in the world. I doubt they would be able to pick up THAT much of the slack as to keep price increases that low. Not many countries have the wide open expanses AND the technology to utilize it, like the US does.

[Texsox]

How much can they produce?  The scale that the US produces on is unmatched in the world.  I doubt they would be able to pick up THAT much of the slack as to keep price increases that low.  Not many countries have the wide open expanses AND the technology to utilize it, like the US does.

 

I think we are talking about two different increases. I'm talking about the total food bill increase, not the increase on individual items. I think that is probably the difference. Individual crops that require much hand cultivating, and harvesting would go up a lot. We would not see double digit increases in crops that lend themselves to mechanical processes.

 

Farming is an amazingly simple process. We have produced so much based largely on economics. We were the largest car manufacturer. The largest TV manufacturer. Keep going down the list of industries that have gone away. We already are importing an insane amount of food, what's a few trillion pounds more? It wouldn't happen over night, but it would. People already pass over the expensive vine ripened tomatoes (GOP spelling) for the symmetrical and flat tasting cheaper varieties.