Gang to target vigilante border patrol

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Oh........so that makes it ok then.

 

With a family to support, sure.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

With a family to support, sure.

 

 

So its ok for them to break our laws to support their families. Gotcha.

 

Does that go for someone who sticks up a gas station to pay the electric bill?

 

How about someone who burglarizes a house to buy baby food for the little one?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

So its ok for them to break our laws to support their families.  Gotcha.

 

Does that go for someone who sticks up a gas station to pay the electric bill?

 

How about someone who burglarizes a house to buy baby food for the little one?

 

Did I say hurt others in the process?

 

Let's not make it a moral argument...

 

 

And please tell me you've never jay-walked...didn't drink when underage...Not all laws need to be followed so strictly in order to keep peace...

Edited March 30, 2005 by SleepyWhiteSox

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Did I say hurt others in the process?

 

Let's not make it a moral argument...

And please tell me you've never jay-walked...didn't drink when underage...Not all laws need to be followed so strictly in order to keep peace...

 

 

So now, because you dont like a law, it can be flouted at will. I can't believe you're likening jaywalking and underage drinking to foreign nationals violating our border. You're contorting yourself every which way to try and justify this and making yourself sound more and more rediculous in the process.

[TheBigHurt35]

And what was he running for again?

 

Oh yeah, nothing.

 

Um, in case you forgot, Clinton ran for President in 1996. And, like both Bushes, did absolutely nothing to halt illegal immigration.

[Texsox]

I went 20 different ways in this and allow me to summarize.

 

Immigration is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. For over a hundred years we have turned a blind eye to the issue because we benefited.

 

I don't have a problem with documenting every worker and visitor to this country. I personally feel we have more to fear from a guy in a nice suit stepping off a plane then Juan with everything he owns on his back, carrying two milk jugs of water, across the desert. I do not understand placing a bunch of resources trying to stop Juan and allowing terrorists with money to waltz in on tourist VISAs, Student VISAs, etc. Do we honestly believe a major terrorist plot begins with "cross just north of Del Rio, walking 55 miles across the desert avoiding the vigilantes, . . .

 

The reason our elected officials have not done anything is they understand how critical these laborers are to our agriculture economy and how important agriculture is to our National Defense. This is a huge agricultural area, and everyone I know in the industry tells me that cannot hire enough legal Americans for the harvest and packing season. The work is about 7-8 months long and ranges from onions to watermelons.

 

The first step in solving the problem is to admit we need these workers and have been exploiting these workers. That's a tough pill to swallow for any President, Senator, Congressman, or State official. Imagine the two choices.

 

1. Elected Official Press Announcement "This policy will eliminate illegals from our shores and will "created" hundreds of thousands of nomad, seasonal, minimum wage jobs. Please head up to Idaho and start picking potatoes for the next 5 weeks, we also need some people for 6 weeks in Florida picking and packing tomatoes, when you finish there, you will be needed in Georgia for 3 weeks picking and packing peaches. This is the greatest employment bill this country has ever seen.

 

Wow creating minimum wage, manual labor, seasonal jobs. That's exactly what gets the voters pulses racing. Especially when the next article over talks about another manufacturing plant moving to China.

 

2. Next options an elected official announcing we need these workers, agriculture cannot work without them. Another soon to be voted out public official.

 

Another interesting point. We make it easier to come here and take a $50,000 per year programming job than a $12,000 per year laborer job. Does that make sense to anyone? The software industry fills their allotment of H1B VISA each year and begs the government to hire more. Claiming there are not enough software writers available in the US. At the same time unemployment in Austin in the tech sector is over 15% with guys very willing to relocate.

 

Unlike illegals coming in from other parts of the globe, Mexicans , for the most part, return to Mexico with their pay, at the end of the season.

 

Tensions are high on the border. Vigilantes are outside the law, are not trained, no screening. I've read their web sites and they are filled with hate wrapped up in an American flag. Let's not make these guys the poster children for border security. Let's come up with a program that doesn't cut off our nose to spite our face. Recognize the valuable contribution that guest farm labor provides this country, figure out a way to harness that, while helping to insure that someone out to hurt us doesn't slip through.

Edited March 30, 2005 by Texsox

[YASNY]

I do believe President Bush has already publically acknowledged the benefit these migrant farm workers are to the US.

[southsider2k5]

I guess no one wants to try and answer why a Doctor and his familty from Canada can spend 6 months out of the year vacationing in America but a Mexican Doctor and his family can only spend 3 months. Could it be we are treating LAW ABIDING Mexicans worse than Canadians? I'm certain the color of their skin has nothing to do with it.

 

I answered this one yesterday. Because statistically Mexicans are thousands of times more likely to stay here illegally. How many illegal Canadians are here, how many illegal Mexicans are here. Which border does the problem lay at? That is why the rules are more strict there.

[southsider2k5]

What I mean is that better efforts need to be made by both sides to find a common ground in which legal access to work here is made fairer.  Until then, people will cross illegally as long as their is a need for them to work to support their families and such and a demand here to employ them.  I'm just not a supported of treating honest, hard-working human beings so disrespectfully and, at times, inhumanely.

 

Edit:  And we're not gonna turn into iraq...That's just ridiculous...

 

Ummm don't forget a sizable number of the terrorists who committed the acts of 9-11 were here illegally. And if you want to be technical about it, all they were doing was exercizing their religious freedoms. If the US waited for them to break some kind of a law that wasn't immigration related, it would have been too late... and for 3000 people it was. They blended into society, worked, took classes, went to church. On the surface they were law abiding citizens, until they hijacked those planes that is.

[southsider2k5]

Do we honestly believe a major terrorist plot begins with "cross just north of Del Rio, walking 55 miles across the desert avoiding the vigilantes, . . .

 

Recent intelligence has indicated that Al Qaeda had made plans to do just that, because they know it is the easiest way into the USA right now. There have been reports that they plan to land in simpathetic Central American countries, then work their way accross the US/Mexican border.

[Texsox]

I answered this one yesterday.  Because statistically Mexicans are thousands of times more likely to stay here illegally.  How many illegal Canadians are here, how many illegal Mexicans are here.  Which border does the problem lay at?  That is why the rules are more strict there.

 

SO they are more likely to overstay a 6 month Tourist VISA than a 3 month VISA? Why?

[Texsox]

Ummm don't forget a sizable number of the terrorists who committed the acts of 9-11 were here illegally.  And if you want to be technical about it, all they were doing was exercizing their religious freedoms. If the US waited for them to break some kind of a law that wasn't immigration related, it would have been too late... and for 3000 people it was.  They blended into society, worked, took classes, went to church.  On the surface they were law abiding citizens, until they hijacked those planes that is.

 

And how many were Mexicans working in packing sheds and produce fields?

[Texsox]

If anyone is still interested. When a US Serviceman or woman dies while serving our country in the US military, they are more than 5000 times more likely to be Mexican-American than Canadian-American.

 

Nuke, how many Canadians have you worked with? How many Mexicans?

Anyone care to guess how many Hispanics vs. Canadians are Medal of Honor recipients?

 

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

If anyone is still interested. When a US Serviceman or woman dies while serving our country in the US military, they are more than 5000 times more likely to be Mexican-American than Canadian-American.

 

Nuke, how many Canadians have you worked with? How many Mexicans?

Anyone care to guess how many Hispanics vs. Canadians are Medal of Honor recipients?

 

 

 

How in gods name is this relevant to illegal immigrants violating our border?

 

You keep trying to make this into an issue of race and it's not. You're also trying to make it seem that I'm downplaying or thumbing my nose at the contribution Mexicans make to our country. That's also not true. I have no issue with Mexicans, or anybody else for that matter, emigrating to America..............just so long as it follows the proper guidelines and policies we have set forth.

 

Bottom line.....Illegal aliens are breaking US law with their very presence here. This is a fact. We spend BILLIONS of dollars on services and on incarcerating those of em that commit additional crimes while they're here. This is a fact.

 

Another fact is that if we allow this problem to fester for much longer there are going to be dire consequences for us all.

Edited March 31, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[southsider2k5]

If anyone is still interested. When a US Serviceman or woman dies while serving our country in the US military, they are more than 5000 times more likely to be Mexican-American than Canadian-American.

 

Nuke, how many Canadians have you worked with? How many Mexicans?

Anyone care to guess how many Hispanics vs. Canadians are Medal of Honor recipients?

 

 

If I had to guess there would be a pretty direct correlation to the % of Mexicans vs Canadians in the military, and the % of Mexicans vs Canadians who have immigrated to the US.

 

Out of curiousity, what does that have to do with illegal immigration?

 

Heck I could throw out all kinds of crap to see if it sticks.

 

I'll bet the US has lost less jobs to Canada vs Mexico.

 

What does that mean here? Nothing.

 

All you facts mean is that Mexican's who come to the US join the military more often than their Canadian counterparts, because Mexican immigrants on average have less education, and less job opportunities, making the military a more attractive option. Once you are in the military, bullets don't discriminate against who they kill.

 

Is that meant to somehow degrade Canadians? Seriously I really don't get the connection to the conversation.

[Texsox]

Let me see if I understand you.

 

Illegal immigration is a good reason to limit Mexicans legally visiting the US because they are more likely to overstay a 6-month Visa than a 3-month Visa. Mexicans should be punished because of the wrongs of their countrymen, but not given any credit to the good of their countrymen.

 

Did I get that right?

[southsider2k5]

Let me see if I understand you.

 

Illegal immigration is a good reason to limit Mexicans legally visiting the US because they are more likely to overstay a 6-month Visa than a 3-month Visa. Mexicans should be punished because of the wrongs of their countrymen, but not given any credit to the good of their countrymen.

 

Did I get that right?

 

Ah the big set up, now I get it.

[Texsox]

Ah the big set up, now I get it.

 

Wasn't a set up. I thought reminding everyone of the positive contributions that Mexican-Americans have made to this country would have balanced all the negatives that these vigilantes like to mention.

 

From a City of Los Angeles Proclamation

 

WHEREAS, out of a total of 3,427 Congressional Medal of Honor granted by the U.S. Congress, 39 have been awarded to citizens of "Latino" ancestry, establishing Latinos as the largest single ethnic group, in proportion to the number who served, to earn this prestigious award.

 

Alfredo "Freddy" Gonzalez is a local hero around these parts.

 

Vietnam War Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Sgt. Alfredo Gonzalez

 

*GONZALEZ, ALFREDO

 

Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Marine Corps, Company A, 1st Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division (Rein), FMF. Place and date: Near Thua Thien, Republic of Vietnam, 4 February 1968. Entered service at: San Antonio, Tex. Born: 23 May 1946, Edinburg Tex. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as platoon commander, 3d Platoon, Company A. On 31 January 1968, during the initial phase of Operation Hue City, Sgt. Gonzalez' unit was formed as a reaction force and deployed to Hue to relieve the pressure on the beleaguered city. While moving by truck convoy along Route No. 1, near the village of Lang Van Lrong, the marines received a heavy volume of enemy fire. Sgt. Gonzalez aggressively maneuvered the marines in his platoon, and directed their fire until the area was cleared of snipers. Immediately after crossing a river south of Hue, the column was again hit by intense enemy fire. One of the marines on top of a tank was wounded and fell to the ground in an exposed position. With complete disregard for his safety, Sgt. Gonzalez ran through the fire-swept area to the assistance of his injured comrade. He lifted him up and though receiving fragmentation wounds during the rescue, he carried the wounded marine to a covered position for treatment. Due to the increased volume and accuracy of enemy fire from a fortified machine gun bunker on the side of the road, the company was temporarily halted. Realizing the gravity of the situation, Sgt. Gonzalez exposed himself to the enemy fire and moved his platoon along the east side of a bordering rice paddy to a dike directly across from the bunker. Though fully aware of the danger involved, he moved to the fire-swept road and destroyed the hostile position with hand grenades. Although seriously wounded again on 3 February, he steadfastly refused medical treatment and continued to supervise his men and lead the attack. On 4 February, the enemy had again pinned the company down, inflicting heavy casualties with automatic weapons and rocket fire. Sgt. Gonzalez, utilizing a number of light antitank assault weapons, fearlessly moved from position to position firing numerous rounds at the heavily fortified enemy emplacements. He successfully knocked out a rocket position and suppressed much of the enemy fire before falling mortally wounded. The heroism, courage, and dynamic leadership displayed by Sgt. Gonzalez reflected great credit upon himself and the Marine Corps, and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

 

I see the many Mexican-Americans that enter the service here. Most people do not realize that you do not have to be a US Citizen to join our military. I believe it is a shame that these men and women can bravely serve our country, with honor, and they are not automatically granted citizenship.

Edited March 31, 2005 by Texsox

[southsider2k5]

Wasn't a set up. I thought reminding everyone of the positive contributions that Mexican-Americans have made to this country would have balanced all the negatives that these vigilantes like to mention.

 

From a City of Los Angeles Proclamation

Alfredo "Freddy" Gonzalez is a local hero around these parts.

I see the many Mexican-Americans that enter the service here. Most people do not realize that you do not have to be a US Citizen to join our military. I believe it is a shame that these men and women can bravely serve our country, with honor, and they are not automatically granted citizenship.

 

Mexicans do a lot for our country, I think we all knew and have stated that. Every person who has responded to you has noted that legal immigration is an important part of this country, and probably would acknowledge the vital role that migration has played in the US history. I don't think I have seen anyone on here trying to perpetuate some kind of the "lazy Mexican" stereotype, so I am not quite sure what you are trying to say that people who disagree with you are saying????

[Texsox]

Mexicans do a lot for our country, I think we all knew and have stated that.  Every person who has responded to you has noted that legal immigration is an important part of this country, and probably would acknowledge the vital role that migration has played in the US history.  I don't think I have seen anyone on here trying to perpetuate some kind of the "lazy Mexican" stereotype, so I am not quite sure what you are trying to say that people who disagree with you are saying????

 

That Mexicans should enjoy the same visitation policies that Canadians have.

 

That Mexican Americans should not be harassed by vigilantes along the border. These guys can not tell the difference between a citizen, a resident alien, and an illegal. So they harass all of them. There are way more legals here than illegals.

Edited March 31, 2005 by Texsox

[southsider2k5]

That Mexicans should enjoy the same visitation policies that Canadians have.

 

That Mexican Americans should not be harassed by vigilantes along the border. These guys can not tell the difference between a citizen, a resident alien, and an illegal. So they harass all of them. There are way more legals here than illegals.

 

Who supported the vigilantees?

[Texsox]

Who supported the vigilantees?

 

Nuke for one.

You supported shorter visa restrictions on Mexicans

Edited March 31, 2005 by Texsox

[southsider2k5]

Nuke for one.

You supported shorter visa restrictions on Mexicans

 

Damn right I did. And if Canada had a problem with illegal immigrants using every means possible to cross the border, I'd want the same restrictions on them. Why would we give a problem border more chances and a longer opportunity to slip away into the country? It gives them longer to find safehouses, longer to find work, longer to find places to hide. If we didn't have millions of illegals here already, and many thousands more trying every single day, there wouldn't be the need for the different programs. Its just like privlege (and yes visiting a forgien country is one) if people abuse it, it gets taken away, or lessened. We obviously don't have the funds to check up on every visa we issue, so the restrictions instead have to be greater.

[Texsox]

Damn right I did.  And if Canada had a problem with illegal immigrants using every means possible to cross the border, I'd want the same restrictions on them.  Why would we give a problem border more chances and a longer opportunity to slip away into the country?  It gives them longer to find safehouses, longer to find work, longer to find places to hide.  If we didn't have millions of illegals here already, and many thousands more trying every single day, there wouldn't be the need for the different programs.  Its just like privlege (and yes visiting a forgien country is one) if people abuse it, it gets taken away, or lessened.  We obviously don't have the funds to check up on every visa we issue, so the restrictions instead have to be greater.

 

These are Doctors, and Lawyers, and businesspeople who love to travel to San Antonio and South Padre Island for long weekends. They own property over here. Despite your view, they don't want to live here, they have lives in Mexico.

 

You are confusing two groups.

 

Shouldn't you check to see what countries have more visa violations? You are confusing illegals with no paperwork and visitors that have gone through the long and involved paperwork with the US and Mexico.

 

Do we follow the same laws then for Italians, English, Aussies, Poles, Chinese? Add up the lawbreakers and punish the innocent?

Edited March 31, 2005 by Texsox

[southsider2k5]

These are Doctors, and Lawyers, and businesspeople who love to travel to San Antonio and South Padre Island for long weekends. They own property over here. Despite your view, they don't want to live here, they have lives in Mexico.

 

You are confusing two groups.

 

Do we follow the same laws then for Italians, English, Aussies, Poles, Chinese? Add up the lawbreakers and punish the innocent?

 

Actually our immigration policy has always been on a country by country basis. People perpetually abuse our visa program, and the government has to identify the groups that have the biggest chance of violating their stay. It isn't a big leap of faith to think that the group that has the most illegal aliens in the US, would also abuse the visa policy the quickest.

 

Its just like having two kids. One is in trouble all of the time, and one is your typical nerd who hasn't been in trouble a day in his life. Are you going to not let the good kid go out, because the bad kid did something wrong? Most likely you would give the bad kid less opportunities to break the rules, and would give the good kid leeway.