Gang to target vigilante border patrol

[Texsox]

As is typically the case with these guys little details like that which make a big difference get left out.  They want it to sound like they are going door to door rousting mexicans at random.

 

:rolly

 

City folks.

 

I go backpacking and take my Boy Scouts into those areas. People actually use the wilderness for recreation. We camp, explore, and enjoy God's creation.

 

Great information on wilderness travel

 

Big Bend National Park Big Bend sits directly on the Rio Grande. The Chisos Mountains are some of the most beautiful areas anywhere. The surrounding desert areas are alive with some really cool reptiles, flora, fauna, and relics. Amazing place. We've also be invited to explore many of the ranches, Fish and Wildlife areas, and Nature Conservancy sites in that area.

 

Sorry, no electricity, no cell coverage, no TV signal, no Internet, no Starbucks so y'all probably don't think people can live there.

 

So Nuke, who is overlooking some facts? I've walked those areas that to y'all are some abstract concept. And was not capitalizing the M in Mexicans a deliberate insult or a Freudian slip?

 

As far as targeting, I am pointing out that LAW ENFORCEMENT is trained and knows all the nuances of our immigration laws, these guys do not.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Texsox

[TheBigHurt35]

And you reelected who in 2004? If this is such a big issue for you, throw da bum out. We talk about the need to prevent terror but we keep our borders "wide open" to terrorists, leave our ports and cargo uninspected.

 

The party in power has now had 11 years to take care of this problem. They've done nothing.

 

So, I should throw Bush and his Republican cohorts out of offce and watch while the Democrats do nothing, paralyzed by fear that their leftist constituents will label them "racist"? That's what happened in the early/mid '90s when Clinton was in office and the Dems controlled Congress.

 

Obviously, neither party has done anything about this (albeit for different reasons), yet you place all of the blame on the right. How typical. :rolly

Edited April 2, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[LowerCaseRepublican]

So, I should throw Bush and his Republican cohorts out of offce and watch while the Democrats do nothing, paralyzed by fear that their leftist constituents will label them "racist"?  That's what happened in the early/mid '90s when Clinton was in office and the Dems controlled Congress.

 

Obviously, neither party has done anything about this (albeit for different reasons), yet you place all of the blame on the right.  How typical. :rolly

 

I think he's just showing the Bush incompetency to deal with the borders while promoting the Unneeded Safeguard Abolition Preparing Americans To Readily Ignore Overt Totalitarianism Act (USA PATRIOT Act) But you are right that neither major corporate party is doing anything to deal with actual problems. I just wonder about agent provocateurs possibly infiltrating the Minutemen. I wouldn't put it past the US government to do this to discredit movements that were a growing threat to their policy since they've done it plenty of times in the past (i.e. COINTELPRO etc.)

[Texsox]

The volunteers reported another illegal immigrant after he wandered onto the campus of a Bible college near the community of Palominas.

 

I guess they aren't sticking to those wilderness areas. Easier to just hang around town.

[YASNY]

I guess they aren't sticking to those wilderness areas. Easier to just hang around town.

 

 

Staying close to the beer!

[Texsox]

Staying close to the beer!

 

Do you think they are drinking Corona and limes?

 

One very good thing about having the vigilantes out there, is if they stay long enough, they will save lives. The Border Patrol checks out every instance of ciculating buzzards. All too often it is a person who didn't make it.

 

I also hope this helps increase the Border Patrol's budget. Right now they have to place much of their resources on stopping drugs, guns, and other contraband and don't have a lot of extra fund to chase illegals. I would hate for agents to be taken off of drug smuggling and placed on chasing down leads of every Mexican-American on the border.

[Texsox]

Hmm, Border Patrol Agents and Mexican Law enforcement get confused as to where the border is. No place for amateurs. Nuke, how helpful would vigilantes be to your efforts as a soldier? Think Border Patrol wants that same help?

 

Border Patrol team investigates last week's Mexican-soldier confrontation

 

By Diana Washington Valdez

El Paso Times

 

A U.S. Border Patrol Shooting Review Team is investigating allegations that Mexican Army soldiers who entered the country illegally last week near Sunland Park fired weapons at two Border Patrol agents.

 

"We are convinced shots were fired (at) the agents," said Jerry Armstrong, deputy chief of the Border Patrol-El Paso sector. "We don't know how long the investigation will take, but we are taking this incident seriously."

 

Neither of the Border Patrol agents was injured. They were patrolling the area on horseback.

 

U.S. State Department officials said Mexican army soldiers have crossed the U.S.-Mexico border illegally 47 times in since 1995. This was the first time they reportedly fired at U.S. federal agents.

 

Armstrong wouldn't say whether investigators found bullet casings where the shots were fired, "because it's part of the ongoing investigation."

 

He said the shots reportedly were fired within U.S. territory, roughly half a mile from the border near Sunland Park.

 

"The standoffs ... were extremely tense. Two shots were fired and weapons were pointed on both sides," said Paul Berg, Border Patrol Chief at Del Rio, Texas, who along with Armstrong and others provided details about the incident. This is their account:

 

Remote crossing

 

Two Humvees with Mexican soldiers aboard knocked down a barbed-wire fence at the border and entered the United States illegally after spotting a Border Patrol vehicle nearby, Berg said.

 

The remote desert area where the soldiers entered at 10:30 p.m. March 14 is dotted with brush-covered mounds. Dirt roads and trails and utility lines criss-cross the mesa.

 

Rabbits and coyotes have the run of the land, which is heavily patrolled because it's a popular crossing point for undocumented immigrants and drug smugglers.

 

On the Mexican side, a road runs parallel to the fence, and on the U.S. side, a parallel dirt road is used by Border Patrol agents. From the fence, Mount Cristo Rey is visible to the east.

 

The standoff

 

That night, Berg said, "the (two Humvees) split up. One followed the Border Patrol vehicle while the second chased agents ... on horseback."

 

The Border Patrol agent in the vehicle drove off on a dirt trail in a northwesterly direction, which is U.S. Bureau of Land Management property. The Humvee followed him for nearly a mile, all the way to the Border Patrol horse barn adjacent to the Camino Real landfill.

 

The second Humvee gave chase to Border Patrol agents on horseback.

 

Armstrong said "a standoff occurred" during three separate encounters between the soldiers and Border Patrol agents.

 

"The Mexican soldiers thought they were in Mexico," Armstrong said. "There was a standoff. Weapons were drawn."

 

"They yelled to our agents,'You're in Mexico, drop your weapons.' Our agents yelled back, 'You're in the United States, drop your weapons," he said.

 

Call for backup

 

Border Patrol agents at the barn area called Sunland Park city police for backup.

 

"We sent three uniformed police officers in three police vehicles," said Sunland Park Police Chief Ricardo Perez. "Our vehicle lights were flashing. We were very obvious."

 

Near the barn area, police and agents convinced the Mexican captain that he and his men were in U.S. territory. The captain then ordered his men to surrender and turn over their weapons. The officer told Border Patrol officials he thought they were chasing a drug smuggler.

 

Meanwhile, "the second (Humvee) drove near one of the Border Patrol agents on horseback," Berg said. "The agent identified himself ... and ordered the (Humvee) to stop. This (Humvee) then began to pursue the mounted agent screaming for him to stop, and a shot was fired."

 

"The Border Patrol agent eluded the (Humvee) and safely concealed himself in nearby draw," Berg said. "Another mounted Border Patrol agent (saw) what was happening. (He) was sighted by the soldiers (who) immediately began to pursue him ... screaming at him to stop."

[Flash Tizzle]

Hmm, Border Patrol Agents and Mexican Law enforcement get confused as to where the border is. No place for amateurs. Nuke, how helpful would vigilantes be to your efforts as a soldier? Think Border Patrol wants that same help?

 

As I understood the article, the only people confused were Mexican Law Enforcement agents.

 

It's not a question of whether Border Patrols agents are doing their job, while there may be merit in that assumption, but the low amount of agents employed to guard 1,000 miles of Mexican/American border.

 

Honestly, who cares what these Border Patrolmen believe of Minutemen. If my town felt police were not fulfillihg their duties, and formed a subsequent watch-group, I'd expect our force to feel insulted. As many of these Patrol agents likely feel.

 

Ultimately, if progress is made in curbing illegal immigration, which statistics will either validate or disprove, then their work is justified.

 

BTW, here's an article posted in the Sun-Times.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-border04.html

 

8 migrants arrested in Arizona after volunteers spot them

 

April 4, 2005

 

 

PHOENIX -- Volunteers for an effort to patrol the Mexican border reported their first sighting of suspected illegal immigrants, resulting in 18 arrests, authorities said Sunday.

 

Participants in the Minuteman Project spotted the migrants Saturday near Naco as the volunteers were surveying the border to familiarize themselves with the area. When agents arrived, they apprehended 18 people, Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame said.

 

''You observe them, report them and get out of the way,'' said Mike McGarry, a spokesman for the project, which begins today amid fears of vigilante violence.

 

AP

 

Edited April 4, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[Rex Kickass]

So, I should throw Bush and his Republican cohorts out of offce and watch while the Democrats do nothing, paralyzed by fear that their leftist constituents will label them "racist"?  That's what happened in the early/mid '90s when Clinton was in office and the Dems controlled Congress.

 

Obviously, neither party has done anything about this (albeit for different reasons), yet you place all of the blame on the right.  How typical. :rolly

 

You're complaining about a problem that your party refuses to fix. Instead of saying "Oh, good point." or disagreeing for a vaild reason, you just point a finger and bleat out "Clinton."

 

Its simply amazing how people who can have control of the government for so long can still feel like a victim.

[Texsox]

As I understood the article, the only people confused were Mexican Law Enforcement agents. 

 

It's not a question of whether Border Patrols agents are doing their job, while there may be merit in that assumption, but the low amount of agents employed to guard 1,000 miles of Mexican/American border.

 

Honestly, who cares what these Border Patrolmen believe of Minutemen. If my town felt police were not fulfillihg their duties, and formed a subsequent watch-group, I'd expect our force to feel insulted. As many of these Patrol agents likely feel.

 

Ultimately, if progress is made in curbing illegal immigration, which statistics will either validate or disapprove, then their work is justified.

 

BTW, here's an article posted in the Sun-Times.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-border04.html

 

If vigilantes are making the job more difficult for the Border Patrol, we should all care. They are already understaffed to stop drugs, guns, and other illegal stuff. To be spending time investigating Mexican-Americans would not be wise. To spark an international incident by getting into a shooting match with Mexican officials would not be helpful. Professionals with training confuse the border, vigilantes from California can do better?

 

I am certain that if vigilantes patrolled Schaumburg they could help tip police to many crimes. They could follow people on their way home to make certain they aren't drunk, they could park outside your house and make certain that the person in the backyard isn't trying to rob the place. There is plenty of crime in all areas, we need more armed vigilantes in all neighborhoods, not just on the border.

Edited April 4, 2005 by Texsox

[TheBigHurt35]

You're complaining about a problem that your party refuses to fix. Instead of saying "Oh, good point." or disagreeing for a vaild reason, you just point a finger and bleat out "Clinton."

 

I've already admitted that "my party" refuses to fix it (technically, I'm an Independent). But, for some reason, YOU can't bring yourself to admit that YOUR party did nothing about it, either. What's the point of me voting "my party" out of office if YOUR party will do the same thing?

 

Your "suggestion" is nothing more than partisan bulls***.

Edited April 4, 2005 by TheBigHurt35

[Texsox]

The reason neither party will do anything about it is it would be economic suicide to eliminate illegal workers, and it would be political suicide to throw open the border. So they go after the drugs, weapons, money, terrorists and bigger fish and avoid the 800 pound gorilla sitting at the table flicking boogers.

 

A terrorist would have decent financial backing and would arrive in an airplane, not by walking two weeks through desert and risking their lives before their mission.

[TheBigHurt35]

A terrorist would have decent financial backing and would arrive in an airplane, not by walking two weeks through desert and risking their lives before their mission.

 

Not sure I agree with that. It's a hell of a lot easier to sneak across the border than to get through airport security with a bomb in one's briefcase. And I don't think that "risking their lives" is much of a concern to terrorist "martyrs."

[Texsox]

Not sure I agree with that.  It's a hell of a lot easier to sneak across the border than to get through airport security with a bomb in one's briefcase.  And I don't think that "risking their lives" is much of a concern to terrorist "martyrs."

 

Of course that is a possibility. But the weight of the bomb would make it unlikely. It would be easier to build the bomb in the US. Drug smugglers fly their cargo, I would suspect that would be even more likely a method than walking.

 

Risking their lives and not following through on their mission, I am certain is a concern. What good is a bomb that doesn't reach it's target?

[YASNY]

They are not vigilantes.

[Texsox]

They are not vigilantes.

 

vig·i·lan·te Audio pronunciation of "vigilante" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (vj-lnt)

n.

 

1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

2. A member of a vigilance committee.

 

Not all, but many of them fit not only the dictionary definition, but the popular meaning as well.

[Texsox]

Border Patrol complains that volunteers are tripping sensors

By Associated Press

Monday, April 4, 2005 - Updated: 04:04 PM EST

 

TOMBSTONE, Ariz. - Volunteers who have converged on the Mexican border to watch for illegal immigrants are disrupting U.S. Border Patrol operations by unwittingly tripping sensors that alert agents to possible intruders, an agency spokesman complained Monday.

Scores of participants in the Minuteman Project began assembling late last week and planned to begin regular patrols on Monday, in an exercise some law enforcement authorities and civil rights groups fear will result in vigilante violence. Many of the volunteers were recruited over the Internet, and some planned to be armed.

Over the past few days, they have set off sensors, forcing agents to respond to false alarms, said Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Jose Maheda.

``Every sensor has to be addressed,'' Maheda said. ``It's taken away from our normal operations.''

The volunteers planned to start fanning out Monday across 23 miles of the San Pedro Valley to watch the border and report any illegal activity to federal agents.

The idea, according to project organizers, is partly to draw attention to problems on the Arizona-Mexico border, considered the most porous stretch of the 2,000-mile southern border. Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border.

Jim Coniglio of Tucson, who plans to patrol with other volunteers this week, said residents in some areas of the border have complained of being ``overrun routinely'' by migrants. ``They're feeling insecure,'' he said.

The Border Patrol opposes the operation. ``The possibility for something going drastically wrong is very high,'' Maheda said.

[YASNY]

Not all, but many of them fit not only the dictionary definition, but the popular meaning as well.

 

 

As of yet, they have not taken the law into their own hands. They are reporting illegal activity to the proper authorities .... as any good American citizen should do.

[Texsox]

As of yet, they have not taken the law into their own hands.  They are reporting illegal activity to the proper authorities .... as any good American citizen should do.

 

The group currently in the news is not the only group that has done this. There are or have been many more. I guess that is part of the debate here, this isn't anything new to the border. These guys are just better at promotion and since 9/11 they have wrapped themselves up in the American flag.

[YASNY]

The group currently in the news is not the only group that has done this. There are or have been many more. I guess that is part of the debate here, this isn't anything new to the border. These guys are just better at promotion and since 9/11 they have wrapped themselves up in the American flag.

 

 

Well, perhaps those earlier groups were vigilantes. As of now, this group is not.

[Texsox]

Well, perhaps those earlier groups were vigilantes.  As of now, this group is not.

 

I'm wondering why they need guns?

[YASNY]

I'm wondering why they need guns?

 

They are licenced to carry them. I wondering why that can't?

[Texsox]

I'm wondering why they need guns?

Most of these guys are from out of state, I wonder what Arizona's laws are in regard to concealed weapons. We have a reciprocal agreement with a few states in Texas which would make it legal to carry if you have a permit from one of those states.

[YASNY]

Most of these guys are from out of state, I wonder what Arizona's laws are in regard to concealed weapons. We have a reciprocal agreement with a few states in Texas which would make it legal to carry if you have a permit from one of those states.

 

You are so anxious to label these citizens as vigilantes or criminals without any solid justification whatsoever. Pure speculation is all you have. It's petty politics because you disagree with them.

[Texsox]

You are so anxious to label these citizens as vigilantes or criminals without any solid justification whatsoever.  Pure speculation is all you have.  It's petty politics because you disagree with them.

 

 

Speculation? Fair enough. But . . .

 

I also have 8 years of living on the border and seeing these groups come and go. I have 6 years working with the local Chambers of Commerce, manufacturing groups, listening to campaign speeches, looking at initiatives to help the border region, talking with friends who are Border Patrol agents and Customs agents, crossing the International bridge daily, working in Mexico, having friends who are Mexican-Americans, non-resident aliens, and regular tourists. This isn't a new issue for me. (legal and illegal crossing) It is vital to the economy of the border region. The new Laser Visa cost Valley businesses hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost business when it was first introduced.

 

I am a conservative law and order type guy. When our law enforcement agencies report these guys getting in the way, tripping alarms, and harassing honest citizens, I agree with law enforcement. I never understood protesters who called police officers pigs and all that in the 60s.

 

Vigilantes? I didn't start the thread, it is the thread title that southsider gave it, (who thinks I'm dead wrong on this), and is what law enforcement is calling these guys. I like being on the side of our men in blue. Dedicated officers who patrol these lonely stretches of wilderness. If you prefer a different label for these volunteers, I'll use it.

 

How is it helping that Border Patrol has to investigate the sensors that these Brave American Patriot Volunteers are tripping? The Border Patrol stops over 500,000 illegals along that stretch each year. Do you think they are going to catch more or less with these guys driving around and tripping sensors and pulling officers off their regular duties?

Edited April 5, 2005 by Texsox