Gang to target vigilante border patrol

[southsider2k5]

now I am getting blamed for that? There is a reason I dropped out of this thread pages ago.

[YASNY]

You have repeatedly called these people vigilantes through this thread. I have not argued any points of yours or the justifications for your opinions. They are all valid. I am, however, pointing out the facts, as things currently stand that these people are neither vigilantes nor criminals. That is the crux of my argument. Why can't you accept a fact as a fact until it no longer is a fact? And ... I'll give you this .. it very well could become as you expect it to.

[Texsox]

You have repeatedly called these people vigilantes through this thread.  I have not argued any points of yours or the justifications for your opinions.  They are all valid.  I am, however, pointing out the facts, as things currently stand that these people are neither vigilantes nor criminals.  That is the crux of my argument.  Why can't you accept a fact as a fact until it no longer is a fact?  And ... I'll give you this .. it very well could become as you expect it to.

 

I called them vigilantes because that was the term being used. It was in the thread title, it was in the articles, and was what Border Patrol calls them.

[YASNY]

I called them vigilantes because that was the term being used. It was in the thread title, it was in the articles, and was what Border Patrol calls them.

 

The fact remains ... as of right now they are not vigilantes.

[Texsox]

The fact remains ... as of right now they are not vigilantes.

 

The angry citizens, whom US President George W. Bush and other officials have dubbed "vigilantes," are fed up with what they say is a US government failure to stop immigrants illegally entering the United States seeking jobs.

 

OK, call them what you will. Let's use the title they prefer Minutemen.

 

The Minutemen do not believe the US Government is doing enough to protect our borders and they need to come to America's defense. Would that be a fair statement?

 

Here is part of one of these group's mission statement

We propose to use the banner of THE AMERICAN RESISTANCE as the means to bring the many groups of hardworking, aware and active citizens together to act as one.

 

At present, our government and our press are successfully ignoring the multi-titled and separate bands that are demanding that our nation be defended from invasion, and that our laws be enforced. These present days of that sad and treasonous disregard for the will of the people will end if we demonstrate our resolve in combination with our collective resources and a well-orchestrated and synchronized offense. We will win when we stop allowing ourselves to be marginalized and dismissed because we have been in a defensive position.

 

The situation at hand demands a coalition. Our children's future America hangs on our actions here, and now. There are not going to be any more chances.

 

They talk about a synchronized offense. Can we call them vigilantes?

Edited April 5, 2005 by Texsox

[Texsox]

Let's look at the good and bad these Minutemen Volunteer Patriots (MVPs) have brought.

 

Good

 

It has focused attention on a problem area, that hopefully will result in some immigration reform.

 

Bad

 

It has diverted resources normally used to fight smuggling, and pulled officers off known smuggling routes, to investigate the protesters when they trip sensors.

 

It has cost the Border Patrol money to watch these MVPs and keep them safe. Again diverting resources that are already stretched too thin.

 

It has insulted the outstanding officers in the US Border Patrol. Imagine if we did that to a US serviceman in Iraq.

 

What is their lasting effect? In a month they go home and nothing has really changed.

 

What really needs to be done:

 

A sane government policy which allows our agriculture industry to continue to produce low cost food.

 

A sane government policy on legal tourism that recognizes Mexican nationals for investing dollars in the US by buying homes, owning stock, and owning businesses.

 

Lobby Mexico to increase the amount of merchandise a Mexican national is allowed to bring into Mexico after shopping in the US.

 

Fund Border Patrol and be certain they have the tools to do their jobs. Imagine how secure our border would be if a few billion dollars were invested there instead if Iraq.

 

__________

 

We have thrived with the longest unsecured borders in the world because we have adopted policies that benefit not only the US, but our neighbors as well. There have been more terrorists attacks by people from Michigan then Mexicans in the past 100 years.

[Texsox]

Over the past few days, they have set off sensors, forcing agents to respond to false alarms, said Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Jose Maheda.

 

"Now we not only have to look out for aliens and drug smugglers, now we have to look out for these untrained civilians who are unfamiliar with the landscape," Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame said.

 

Adame said apprehension numbers have gone down since the volunteers arrived, an indication fewer people might be trying to cross. But he also noted the Mexican military and police have apparently been conducting an operation south of the border town of Naco, which tends to drive down crossings.

 

"No one's crossing and that was the goal, to show the government that if we have people out here no one's going to cross," said Chris Simcox, Minuteman field operations director.

 

Apprehension numbers are down and that's a success? Wasn't the reason they are there because apprehension numbers were too low and too many illegals were entering the country? I thought it would be a sucess if MORE illegals were being caught. If after they leave, the Border Patrol doesn't catch anyone, would it mean the protest was a success and no one is crossing anymore?

 

Could it be while the Border Patrol is checking on sensors tripped by the Minutemen, illegals are getting past?

[Texsox]

 

Check out infowars.com in this guy's pickup. Nice site.

 

Bush decries border project

 

 

By James G. Lakely

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

 

WACO, Texas — President Bush yesterday said he opposes a civilian project to monitor illegal aliens crossing the border, characterizing them as "vigilantes."

  He said he would pressure Congress to further loosen immigration law.

    More than 1,000 people — including 30 pilots and their private planes — have volunteered for the Minuteman Project, beginning next month along the Arizona-Mexico border. Civilians will monitor the movement of illegal aliens for the month of April and report them to the Border Patrol.

Edited April 5, 2005 by Texsox

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Apprehension numbers are down and that's a success? Wasn't the reason they are there because apprehension numbers were too low and too many illegals were entering the country?  I thought it would be a sucess if MORE illegals were being caught. If after they leave, the Border Patrol doesn't catch anyone, would it mean the protest was a success and no one is crossing anymore?

 

Could it be while the Border Patrol is checking on sensors tripped by the Minutemen, illegals are getting past?

 

Looks like the predictable results are coming to fruition.

 

Anyone with common sense would oppose such an ill-planned and misguided effort.

[Texsox]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...-home-headlines

 

Not far away, the Minutemen radios were filled with excited chatter about an illegal immigrant in the area. Gilchrist drove up to an outpost, flung open the car door and shouted, "Who saw the illegal aliens?"

 

A tall Minuteman approached.

 

"There are no illegals, those are our people," he said.

 

The "immigrant" was in fact 67-year-old Dave Gessner of Fort Wayne, Ind.

 

"I was just answering the call of nature," he said sheepishly. "Guess I won't wander off anymore."

 

"According to our Minutemen intelligence network, which has been flawless, there is credible evidence that two dozen Mexican nationals have assembled for the sole purpose of causing an incident that would make us look bad," Gilchrist said gravely. "They want us to open fire or assault them. The threat is very real but I can't give you my sources, which are in Mexico."

 

The volunteers looked around, some with puzzled expressions, others betraying a certain skepticism. Gilchrist quietly smoked.

[KipWellsFan]

They want us to open fire or assault them.

 

[southsider2k5]

Man I can hardly wait for someone to get shot, so everyone will be right.

[Rex Kickass]

This whole thing seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Texsox]

This whole thing seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

It's already a disaster on several levels at the border. I don't think this adds to, or subtracts from, the disaster on the border. If they stay there a month, they will probably save at least one person's life.

 

Too bad that they don't speak Spanish.

[Steff]

This whole thing seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

 

Not if they shoot a hole in the right computer....

[Texsox]

Not if they shoot a hole in the right computer....

 

How would that help?

[Steff]

How would that help?

 

 

 

Eh.. just assume a reply.

[Texsox]

Eh.. just assume a reply.

 

Then your response is "Where did I say that?"

 

I've fallen in that trap with you way too often.

[Steff]

 

 

Then your response is "Where did I say that?"

 

I've fallen in that trap with you way too often. 

 

 

Just twice... in the real world anyway.

[EvilMonkey]

Bad

 

 

It has insulted the outstanding officers in the US Border Patrol. Imagine if we did that to a US serviceman in Iraq.

 

 

 

I believe the Minutemen are saying that the LEADERS are not committing their resources to the fight, not the individual officers themselves. Much like the anit-iraqi war protestors were trying to say how they support the troops, but yet belittled Bush and the war leaders at every opportunity.

[YASNY]

From what I'm hearing, the rank & file of the Border Patrol are appreciativfe of these guys bringing attention to the fact that they NEED MORE HELP. What is being said in the media is the "official" stance of the Border Patrol. The rank and file won't say any different because of fear of repercussions.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Minutemen are having an effect.

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152702,00.html

[YASNY]

From the blog of Steven Gregory, an investigative reporter with Newstalk KFYI, who is embedded with the Minutemen:

 

It's funny that most everyone starts each interview with phrases like, "So Steve...you're embedded with a group of vigilantes along the border?" Or, "Hello Steve, tell us what it's like being with the Minutemen Militia" It's no wonder people never trust the media....I assure you, there's no evidence (at least from what I can tell) that there's a militia here...sure, there's a few people with guns..but, they're mostly retired law enforcement, military and in some cases....active law enforcement / military.

 

Jim Gilchrist walks in with a very stern look on his face, pacing back and forth silent for a few moments when he says...."Listen...earlier today we received a credible threat hand delivered to Chris Simcox...it says to expect 24 Mexican activists to 'rush' the border near Naco....this is to taunt, tease and engage the Minutemen...the intent is to prompt one of the volunteers to start violence, or shoot....under no circumstances are you to do either...do I make myself clear?" "Yes, sir!!!" The crowd shouts

 

Jim, in a very powerful voice, proclaims that if anyone even so much as draws their weapon, fires their weapon and/or shoots someone it had better be the very last resort with imminent threat to life....if not, he will stand by the side of the prosecutor and help put you in jail.

[Texsox]

From what I'm hearing, the rank & file of the Border Patrol are appreciativfe of these guys bringing attention to the fact that they NEED MORE HELP.  What is being said in the media is the "official" stance of the Border Patrol.  The rank and file won't say any different because of fear of repercussions.

 

The Border Patrol that are stationed in the McAllen sector I spoke with last night at my Boy Scout Troop meeting are saying this brave volunteers are causing the guys in Arozona grief. Who knows.

[southsider2k5]

This was in yesterdays Trib

 

Volunteers get taste of fright duty

Their 1st night scouring the Arizona-Mexico border for illegal migrants was unnerving. One asked, `Are we looking like idiots?

 

By Michael Martinez

 

ON THE ARIZONA-MEXICO BORDER -- The fledgling civilian patrols of the Minuteman Project had just began their first overnight surveillance of the border when a rumor ricocheted among the 11 volunteers posted along the cattle fence that marks the international line.

 

As many as two dozen members of the nation's latest Public Enemy No. 1, the Central American-based gang called Mara Salvatrucha 13, or MS-13, reportedly were aiming to attack the Minutemen with assault rifles on a moonless night.

 

Chaos and a brief comedy of errors ensued. Suddenly, volunteers hopped into their cars and led one another on an aimless flight, seeking refuge at one of their posts that wasn't even manned. Then they realized they had no command station or even a commander. The radio operator at the Minuteman headquarters wasn't responding.

 

Panic subsides

 

The panic subsided after volunteer Darrel Wood, 44, a former Army Special Forces soldier, urged calm in the early minutes of Tuesday.

 

"What do you guys make of all this? Are we making a statement or are we looking like idiots?" asked Wood, a Minuteman leader and phone company field technician from Price, Utah, addressing some of the dozen journalists trailing the team. "I just hope no one gets hurt. It would be a sad thing."

 

The dangerous graveyard duty was a pioneering moment for the grass-roots Minuteman Project, which is so angry about illegal immigration that it has just launched a program to patrol the border this month. This past weekend the group placed about 200 volunteers on a 2.5-mile stretch of the border just outside the town of Naco, Ariz.

 

Arizona is the nation's busiest migrant smuggling corridor.

 

In the high desert mountain landscape tinged minty green this spring, the volunteers use binoculars and night scopes to spy migrants sneaking into the U.S. and then call the Border Patrol. Minuteman organizers said their tips led federal agents to apprehend more than 100 illegal migrants so far this week, a number U.S. officials couldn't confirm.

 

By dawn Tuesday, the first official day of surveillance ended in the San Pedro River Valley, and volunteers acknowledged that inadequate preparation left them disorganized in the night shift's initial stages.

 

Still, their ragtag efforts stood as a symbol of protest against President Bush's failure to stem widespread illegal immigration, they said. Bush has called the volunteers "vigilantes." Many of them carry sidearms and wear body armor. Their civilian patrols have been criticized by some as racist.

 

Without more volunteers for the midnight duty, Minutemen acknowledged partial defeat in trying to cover a small stretch of the border. Most illegal crossings of migrants and drug carriers occur at night, U.S. authorities said. Many migrants and smugglers already have found routes around the Minutemen posts, according to Mexican border agents, who have stepped up their own frontier patrols.

 

It wasn't a complete failure, the volunteers said, because starting with weekend activities, their controversial initiative attracted international attention.

 

Though many of the 11 observers were disappointed at the low turnout for the 10 p.m.-to-6 a.m. assignment, none indicated surrender.

 

"I feel great, I feel energized," said Tim Donnelly, 38, of Twin Peaks, Calif., a drill-bit manufacturer who wore a cowboy hat and an oilskin duster and carried a long-barreled, pearl-handled Colt 45 tied to his leg. "Now we're back on the issues. We're not just on the hype."

 

"No brag, but I wasn't scared," said Buddy Watson, 60, a retired South Carolina prison guard who now lives in Springdale, Ark., following the MS-13 incident. "I believe this is the start of something."

 

But the momentary rumor, passed up and down the gravel Border Road outside Naco, clearly unnerved the Minutemen, who set up observation posts beside their pickups and cars in the chilly spring night.

 

The rumor gained credibility when Watson confirmed to all that he was warned of the threat during an organizational briefing earlier in the day. Then one volunteer from Houston drove his pickup to each watchman to spread the word.

 

"Let's go now, guys!" shouted the volunteer, who identified himself only as Bill, 48, a technical field worker whose girth resembled that of a football nose tackle. He asked that his last name not be used.

 

"If my leader is being attacked, I'm ready to defend him. Let's go!" Donnelly added, jumping into his pickup.

 

After several minutes of confused driving, the men exited their cars and circled on high ground off the road. The 11-man crew was visibly smaller than the prior shift's 31 observers.

 

Watson reminded his colleagues of instructions from Minuteman founder Jim Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran and retired accountant from Orange County, Calif.: "Upon confrontation, Mr. Gilchrist said, `Back away and stand aside.'"

 

One man, about 6-foot-2 and appearing in his 50s, entered the circle and interjected: "It's kind of hard to back away from an automatic weapon.

 

"It's not our job to confront the worst gang in the world! I'm not going to get involved in a military operation!" the man said. "We can't see more than 50 feet, and we got people crawling up in black camouflage!"

 

Another suggested return fire. "If anybody fires, it's a threat upon us," he said.

 

Donnelly added: "Should we have a word that means `Get out!' Like `Alamo?' "

 

Bill interrupted: "This isn't a test of testosterone. Ain't nobody going to be called a [sissy] if they don't want to stay."

 

Bill then ran to two passing Border Patrol vehicles. He returned and told the unit that the Border Patrol didn't know anything about a possible MS-13 attack in the area.

 

Eventually, Wood, the former Special Forces soldier, became a voice of reason, assigning men to two posts a half-mile apart. Bill then left the contingent, leaving 10 volunteers to monitor the border.

 

`What can you expect?'

 

"We can't stop everybody. We're just here to make a statement," Wood said. "What can you expect when you've never done this before?"

 

Wood described the moment as Minuteman lore in the making.

 

"I think it's a wake-up call for the patriots," he said. "They'll have stories to tell their grandchildren."

Edited April 7, 2005 by southsider2k5