White Sox v. A's Spring Training game

[ptatc]

I do.  If a pitcher gives up 10 runs but the offense scores 11 so the pitcher gets the win, does that mean he pitched well?  Of course not.  That means that the offense performed well but the pitcher struggled mightily.  Is it ever a good thing when a pitcher's ERA is high instead of low?

 

He still WON. At the end of the season does it matter what the ERA is? Does it matter how many guys he struck out? NO all that matters is that the teams with the most WINS go to the playoffs and have a chance to win the World Series.

[ptatc]

Let's put it another way. Would you rather have a guy with an ERA of 2.6 with 12 wins ala Kerry Wood or a guy with 16 wins and an ERA of 3.89 ala MB? I for one go with the only stat that truly matters: the WIN.

[qwerty]

Let's put it another way. Would you rather have a guy with an ERA of 2.6 with 12 wins ala Kerry Wood or a guy with 16 wins and an ERA of 3.89 ala MB? I for one go with the only stat that truly matters: the WIN.

 

Wood or whoever has the 2.6 era.

[WHarris1]

Garland did, easy

Then apparently wins aren't the only thing that matters?

[Jabroni]

Let's put it another way. Would you rather have a guy with an ERA of 2.6 with 12 wins ala Kerry Wood or a guy with 16 wins and an ERA of 3.89 ala MB? I for one go with the only stat that truly matters: the WIN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I'd rather have a guy like Randy Johnson who had a 16-14 record with a 2.60 ERA last season. The reason his record was not that impressive was because the D-Backs offense sucked. Why would I want Wood? The reason his record always sucks is because he can't stay healthy.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Jabroni

[T R U]

Then apparently wins aren't the only thing that matters?

 

ooooooooh 1 win...

[ptatc]

No, I'd rather have a guy like Randy Johnson who had a 16-14 record with a 2.60 ERA last season.  The reason his record was not that impressive was because the D-Backs offense sucked.  Why would I want Wood?  The reason his record always sucks is because he can't stay healthy.

 

And that he leaves games early due to high pitch counts and the bullpen blows leads.

 

But only one team can have him so who do rest of the teams have? Hopefully pitchers who win not just look good on paper.

Edited March 29, 2005 by ptatc

[GoodAsGould]

In my opinion if les say this was a regular season game and Garland gave up 5 ER's and we still got the win i would be fine with it.

 

But in spring training.... i dont give a damn if he wins or loses I care how he pitches and he pitched fuken horrible. Enuf said

[YASNY]

fun fact:  Hawk's career batting average was .239

 

A little Hawk defense here. There was a time when Hawk was feared hitter. You can't hold that .239 average in a fair comparison to today's standards. A bulk of Hawk's career was before the mound was lowered, and pitchers with ERA's under 3 happened nearly every year. The Sox usually had 2 starters that fit that discription every year. Iirc, Hawk played for Boston, Cleveland and the KC A's and was always a threat to rattle some fences.

 

On his dislike of Beane and the Moneyball concept, I would speculate that Hawk is strictly an old school guy, regardless of his feelings toward Beane. However, Beane is known as an arrogant SOB that thinks his s*** don't stink. So, I'd venture to guess that Hawk thinks of Beane about the same way he considers Mariotti.

[Jabroni]

fun fact:  Hawk's career batting average was .239

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hawk also hit...

 

.275 AVG

.356 OBP

.518 SLG

.874 OPS

35 HR

109 RBI

69 BB

90 SO

 

... in 1968 for Boston. Those are Konerko-type numbers. Keep in mind that Hawk did that before steroids and a juiced-up ball. I think he has a right to rip on Billy Beane considering his stellar career.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Jabroni

[YASNY]

Hawk also hit...

 

.275 AVG

.356 OBP

.518 SLG

.874 OPS

35 HR

109 RBI

69 BB

90 SO

 

... in 1968 for Boston.  That was before steroids and a juiced-up ball.  I think he has a right to rip on Billy Beane considering his stellar career.

 

 

LOL. Now compare Beane's career to Hawk's.

[Gene Honda Civic]

on the subject... Here's what I posted on an atletics board, when they complained about hawk being a homer.

 

Hawk is no doubt a homer. Cut him open and he'd bleed black and grey.

 

As Oakland fans you guys get the worst of it. I sincerely doubt that hawk has ever read "Moneyball", and if he has, he obviously struggles to understand it. He views Oakland's approach to the game as threat to the game he grew up playing and loving. What's frustrating is he, like other critics of Beane/Moneyball/Et al., fail to see that while OBP played a large part in what was going on when the book was written, last year's Oakland team was exactly the "pitching and defense" model that the White Sox are trying to emulate this season. [newsflash for those here at Soxtalk: Oakland was 3rd in the AL in defense last year (Sox were 4th)-- Defense was the new market inefficiency, along with having the tools to evaluate defensive ability/range]

 

Hawk holds a grudge towards Beane for the percieved shots that he took at his good friend Kenny Williams in the book, and has been waiting for the day to throw it back in Beane's face when he fails because he doesn't have the "Big three" to fall back on.

 

Over the past 3+ years, while the A's have torched the Sox to the tune of 17-2, Hawk continually lamented, "you could do anything you want with a team and win if you had those 3 pitchers," as a shot at Beane's methods.

 

What he doesn't see either is back in the late 80's the Sox hired a GM from the California Angels(this is the GM who replaced Hawk remember), who was head of scouting out there, Larry Himes. He came to the Sox with the philosophy of drafting quality college players with their top picks (see the "Moneyball" simillarities). In successive years he drafted Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas, and Alex Fernandez, who would form the nucleus to the 1993 AL West champion Sox and the 1994 AL favorite Sox. When he was covering the Sox in 1993 and 4, I never heard Hawk say the sox could do anything they wanted because they has Thomas/Ventura/Fernandez/McDowell.

 

Also, I believe today was the 17th spring training game they've broadcast. The commentary is getting worse each game. There's just not much to say that hasn't been gone over in the other games. They've interviewed every player and coach on the Sox roster at least once during these broadcasts.

[ptatc]

So you are saying that a pitcher can't have a good outing without getting a win?

 

You could say he had a good outing but not great. I would also say he did not do his job. Too many pitchers today focus on this "quality start" mentality. "I went 6 innings and gave up 3 or less runs so I did my job." They should focus on getting the team and themselves a win. Again I'm not saying that is good to give up alot of runs but the bigger picture should be the focus, did the team win and do you win consistently for the team.

[southsider2k5]

You could say he had a good outing but not great. I would also say he did not do his job. Too many pitchers today focus on this "quality start" mentality. "I went 6 innings and gave up 3 or less runs so I did my job." They should focus on getting the team and themselves a win. Again I'm not saying that is good to give up alot of runs but the bigger picture should be the focus, did the team win and do you win consistently for the team.

 

Its not his job to focus on getting runs. The pitchers job is to focus on getting outs. I think if the pitcher is worried about how many runs the offense is getting he isn't completely focused on getting outs.

[YASNY]

Its not his job to focus on getting runs.  The pitchers job is to focus on getting outs.  I think if the pitcher is worried about how many runs the offense is getting he isn't completely focused on getting outs.

 

There are exceptions to this. One I can think of right away is Black Jack McDowell. He would pitch to circumstances of the game. He might give up 4 when the Sox had 5, but he'd rarely give up that tying run. Garland is no McDowell, I know. I'm not trying to say that he is. I'm just saying that some pitchers have the capabilities to "situationally pitch".

[Jabroni]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...ack=1&cset=true

Extra innings

 

Outfielder Joe Borchard played in a minor-league game against Arizona in the morning to get some extra at-bats, then hit a two-run homer against Oakland's Huston Street in the eighth.

I love how Joe nutted one off of Beane's golden-boy closer.

Edited March 30, 2005 by Jabroni

[Punch and Judy Garland]

If Hawk was there would he have started his yearly anti-Billy Ball diatribe a year early?

[Gene Honda Civic]

It was yesterday in the real ST game... not the minor league game.

 

Also Hawk started ranting about billy on the second Oakland batter.

[Jabroni]

It was yesterday in the real ST game... not the minor league game.  

 

Also Hawk started ranting about billy on the second Oakland batter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doh, I guess I didn't read it all that well. You can delete this thread now or at least fix the title.

Edited March 30, 2005 by Jabroni